DUST Search - Rifle normalization.

DeathwindRising wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

Looks **** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez...

Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor.

Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but ****** graph and this community goes wild with praise...

Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism!

Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Roll

Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket.

without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m.

if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits.

none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps.

you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods.

WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.


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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:22:00 - [1] - Quote So. I am working on a project for rifle normalization and creation of an actual DPS curve that is consistent at all ranges. So far my work has resulted not in the homogenization of weaponry, but variance in overall performance. Doing the assault rifles first, designating them as the short range, high DPS rifles. The results are very interesting. Amarr weapons are used as my baseline for pure midrange and 0/0 modifiers to range and DPS. So far, the variants are as follows (profiles not applied): Assault: 50m optimal, 410 DPS Burst: 60m optimal, 400 DPS Breach: 70m optimal, 390 DPS Tac: 80m Optimal, 380 DPS Racial profiles give the following modifiers to each variant: Caldari: +10m/-10 DPS Minmatar: +5m/-5% DPS Amarr: 0m/0 DPS Gallente: -10m/+10 DPS So the assault rifles fall roughly: Caldari: 60m, 405.9 Armor, 332.1 Shields Minmatar: 55m, 447.925 armor, 331.075 Shields Amarr: 50m, 328 armor, 492 shields Gallente: 40m, 405 armor, 496.1 Shields This means that the plasma rifle and asscram perform noticably more poorly versus armor, and the rail and ACR perform poorly vs. Shields. The gallente plasma rifle loses 20m of optimal to the caldari in exchange for noticably higher damage in close. There seems to be a noticable lack of 700+ shield DPS. Another consideration is that TTK goes down, and it becomes easier to justify different bonusing to suits like sentinels, potentially trading resistance bonusing for better utility or weapon application, as well as not having weapons which, by themselves, insta-smear scouts. Another consideration is that laser profile weapons do not need to be rending armor casually. CR should have a hard time vs. Caldari. Tac weapons with some of the best ranges shouldn't out-DPS weapons that have to be in knife range for effectiveness. Tell me how much you hate it! WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:46:00 - [2] - Quote I'd rather rattati tweak the rifles from baseline via assault and commando bonusing Example: Caldari. The need for caldari to completely sacrifice damage for tank or vice versa, while having a lower dps weapon means that a calassault can get a direct bonus to synergy of the rail rifle while making it a doable, but lesser option on the galassault WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:49:00 - [3] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that This already drops ttk. Because :sentinels: I'm not dropping it further. The last time rifles got jacked up without eyeballing fatties, PC became sentinel 514. I used the duvolle as the baseline because it is the rifle struggling the most. I actually built tge rifle ratios against the current duvolle AR for a reason. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:05:00 - [4] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: not to critique too much, but laser tech is supposed to out range projectile tech >.< Would you really like me to increase the range relative to the other rifles, knowing full well that each addition of 1m results in a loss of 1.2% efficacy versus armor. I have, by intention, not taken steps to make scramblers more efficient versus amarr and gallente dropsuits. Because doing so will result in the current disproportionate damage output versus shields. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:24:00 - [5] - Quote This also fits in with the AV/V proposal I've been tooling around with. But that one will also need to come with a sharp drop in cost to vehicle drivers. Because they are balanced on paper there. But they're still gonna get instagibbed by mass fire. Doesn't work at 1.5 mil a pop though WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:17:00 - [6] - Quote Fatties skew the curve hard enough I'm going to run the numbers at 420 base DPS to see where the numbers land. ALL HAIL THE LARDBUTTS! And bow, for I am their king. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:49:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:56:00 - [8] - Quote Proposal Linked at the top of the OP WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:14:00 - [9] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:39:00 - [10] - Quote Inb4 Scrams questions: Viziam DPS: 715 base, no skill, no mods Caldari assault Ck.0 Shield HP (absolute maximum): 706.75 Caldari Sentinel Ck.0 Shield eHP (Absolute Maximum) vs. Viziam: 946.65 (1041.315 after 10% laser resist to shield) Viziam max skill + 3 mods: 1164.7 DPS vs. shields WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:05:00 - [11] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: Personally, I'd swap the Min and Amarr stats. I feel that would follow racial style better. Amarr DPS vs. armor is abysmal. that's why I have them higher. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:21:00 - [12] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Maybe I missed something but I have a quick question. If you balance rifles and increase TTK for them, but leave side arms as is does this create any issues? Doubt it. But more the point, I'm not doing more than one data block at a time WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:14:00 - [13] - Quote Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:30:00 - [14] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: question: cal assault fitted with a full racial shield tank and no plates or damage mods vs gallente assault with full armor tank and damage mods. if they both use racial breach weapons, how much damage does the gal assault do at the RR's optimal range? it would a breach RR at level 5 skills vs Breach AR at level 5 skills plus 3 damage mods. im concerned that caldari would still be out performed damage wise (which why the weapon bnuses would be useful at making sure that doesnt happen) This is why proper assault suit bonusing is critical WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:32:00 - [15] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Rail rifle variants all feature highest damage per shot along with highest range, except the base variant which feature less damage per shot. why have you done this? Because they also have the lowest DPS due to rate of fire. Railguns in new eden are traditionally hammer shots that hit slowly. Only out-alpha'd and beaten in sluggishness by minmatar artillery WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 06:49:00 - [16] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists. Not always true. I have a Caldari assault just for running into groups of heavies while laughing because the damage is negligible when compared to hitting armor. I'm actually talking about scramblers WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:11:00 - [17] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? I hope this set of questions gets a lot more feedback. I've used every rifle in the game, but I would much rather community feedback on the subject than try to use my own personal experience to define where the system is robust or weak (I believe using a sample size of one and defining it as purely accurate is a form of confirmation bias). That and because Cross is heroically lazy. And yet somehow manages to do things. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:54:00 - [18] - Quote Good to see the comments. Keep em coming. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:17:00 - [19] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: The problem I see(the only one) is you cannot use the amar as the baseline. They only have 2 of the 4 rifle(TAC & Assault) variants available. Same goes for the Minn and squids. Ratman cannot and should not try to balance around missing content. Read the proposal. And look at the spreadsheets before you comment. I added polite suggestiins for racial parity in the proposal as well. And the balance is BY CLASS. Not by race. So even if rattati never adds the missing guns, breach baseline is 390 and the rail rifle and breach assault are still adjusted accordingly. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 11:42:00 - [20] - Quote Trying to keep things as stupid simple as possible is the objective. Database numbers are probably more mind numbing than drawing up the spreadsheets. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.02 15:58:00 - [21] - Quote If anyone spots any math errors, let me know WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.03 11:00:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: When you say "skill", do you mean skill in the traditional FPS sense (headshots, strafing/counterstrafing, positioning, etc)? Or do you mean wiggling around and hipfiring while AA aims your gun? I'd assume the former, but I ask as there are some who call the latter skill, and those some have historically favored extending TTK . The way I see it, the weaker our weapons and deeper our HP reserves, the less getting caught out in open or hit from behind matters. More room for error =/= more room for skill. One would hope wiggle strafing isn't considered skill, considering you could teach a chimp to do it. in fact if wiggling stayed as is I want ttk to become shorter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.03 23:19:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. Hate to say it bro, your baby's disproportionately balanced at this time WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.06 11:54:00 - [24] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. Hate to say it bro, your baby's disproportionately balanced at this time Not really sure I could justify using it though with a 50% hit to standard DPS. 1200 DPS vs shields at max skills with 3 mods is about twice what any other rifle can achieve. 50% DPS loss is absolutely justified. No other weapon comes close to achieving those numbers versus their target tank. Also when the SCR has more armor DPS than the CR AFTER the 20% damage penalty then the weapon absolutely needs to get hit. Hard. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.06 14:32:00 - [25] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: Never seen this much detail in rifle stats recently, it's awesome to read. What I find very strange though is how come the min out range the amarr? I know you said you didn't balance this by race but it still bothers me a bit Because it makees as much sense as the reverse. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 07:44:00 - [26] - Quote Amarr overheat: Makes amarr suboptimal in this proposal. I would suggest removing the ammo counter and making reload tied to the overheat. You explode the focus crystal and need to insert a new one. Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 15:34:00 - [27] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:49:00 - [28] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods. It's what we call "A start point" The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part. I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!! The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve. That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:51:00 - [29] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: im amazed no one else is tired of it man. Everyone's tired of it. Rattati's tired of it. that's why he's setting curves and baselines on things like HP/speed. That way, when something needs tweaking, we know where it is, and can figure out the value of the stats people rely on. For example: My rifle curve ties hand in hand with the anti-infantry heavy weapon variants (and AV parity, as well as AI heavy parity) but they all tie in together. Go read the bastion. there's a copy of that one linked there. I don't ever make proposals in a vacuum. My rifle curve, for instance, was written with the idea that the suits of each race should have benefits that make the weapons used on matching racial suits be amazing. But functional on a cross-platform. Especially since Rattati has shown interest in touching cal/gal suit bonusing. I also had commandos in mind when I wrote them. I also had relationships with my proposed Heavy weapons along similar lines, though I refined the rifles and curve concept AFTER, so the heavy weapons are rough drafts. Hilariously Rattati's charge-burst-fire thing he was playing with is exactly what I was proposing for a Light Amarr AV weapon. Does it need work? Absolutely, but the idea is designed so that there's a functioning baseline, so the ENTIRE baseline can be shifted with predictable results if something comes up unbalanced. I'm as sick of the magic 8 ball crap too. I'd rather there be a trackable process for balancing. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:59:00 - [30] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 03:08:00 - [31] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. Why not use something simpler like RoF and damage per shot instead of a clunky mechanic like charge time? Spool time can be just as much of a hinderance to longer range support by fire as it is to CQC. because I run on the philosophy the less actual mechanical alterations there are the more likely it is to be adopted. a method is actually the point today for me. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.