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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.05.29 11:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright guys, sorry for making so many feedback threads recently...I just want this all to stay as organized as possible because this next logistics update is very very VERY important to me.
I've been thinking A LOT about anything that could go wrong with the changes. Specifically:
-Any suit becoming OP
-Logistics in general being abused
-Possible issues with slot progression and fitting space
-Any suit with an unfair, underwhelming, or non-logi style slot layout
-The Amarr logi sidearm and how to account for it.
Out of all four suits, the Amarr ran into the most problems...which should become apparent quickly as you read through this post.
So, let me share my thoughts about the Amarr suit specifically, and at the end you can vote for how you think progression should be balanced around the sidearm.
____________________________________________________________________________
Overview
The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying.
While a sidearm allows for more versatile options when it comes to weapon selection, the gallente slot layout currently outshines the Amarr with not only one more low slot, but a 4th equipment. With logistics mainly being about maximizing support and survivability, the sidearm just doesn't make up for it being the slowest suit with the worst layout.
Amarr in Dust have been standardized to have the most low slots of any race, as we have seen the Amarr sentinel chnged to 1/4, the Scout with 2/4, and the Assault with 3/5. Therefore we can assume the following layouts depending on the number of slots for Amarr:
Three - 0/3
Four - 1/3
Five - 1/4
Six - 2/4
Seven - 2/5
Eight - 3/5
Amarr's racial bonus for all suits is a much larger pool of stamina. For being the slowest race, they are the joggers that are able to just keep running. While the true Amarrians armor tank, the extra low slots still allow for the usage of kin cats to negate the natural speed penalty and maximize on the stamina pool.
_________________________________________________________________________
Here's the link to where you can vote: http://strawpoll.me/4482668
In the next section you will find a detailed look at each of the options in the poll. Please read through any options you are interested in or confused about before making your decision on the poll. I have designed it to only allow players to choose a single option, rather than choosing as many as you like, so please make your choice wisely.
If there are any options I have forgotten about, or anything you'd like to add as feedback for the Amarr Logi, please reply to this thread. This is where any and all discussion about sidearms and the Amarr Logi should go. Feel free to debate and argue as much as you'd like in this thread rather than in the other feedback threads.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.05.29 11:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Option 1: Just take away the sidearm
This was my first initial idea. Why not make it easy and just standardize the suit with the other logistics. Give it 8 slots, 4 equipment, and remove the sidearm altogether at every tier.
PRO is 3/5/4
ADV is 2/4/3
STD is 1/3/3
Unfortunately, this just makes the suit a slower gallente logi with a bonus to uplinks and just a tiny amount of extra armor. It loses its uniqueness and the defining factor for why you should skill into it.
But Shayz, that's the difference between the Gallente and Amarr Assaults!
Except that the Gal Ass gets a bonus to a CQC weapon that works better with high mobility and regen, while the Amarr Ass gets a bonus to a long-range weapon that works better with stacked HP.
Option 2: Sacrifice an equipment slot for the sidearm at each tier
This was the most rational idea, that while sound at first, becomes problematic as you look into it more
The main issue is that having limited equipment slots is TERRIBLE for a "deployable" logi. Seeing as we can't make an exception for Amarr to have extra equipment slots at lower tiers, we end up taking away an equipment slot that really needs to be there for it to be a proper logi.
At PRO you get a 3/5/3 layout with a sidearm.
-With current stats, that's perfect and makes the PRO Amarr logi viable
...but if you add in the fact that logistics are getting a speed buff, there's almost no reason to use the Assault after this update unless you want to run a Scrambler.
-3 equipment slots and a sidearm, with enough low slots to be super tanky, could put this suit into FOTM territory like we had with the Caldari Logi
At ADV you get a 2/4/2 layout with a sidearm.
-A lot of people don't like logistics having only 2 equipment slots, and this actually nerfs the Amarr suit at ADV as the suit currently has 3 equipment slots.
At STD you get a 1/3/2 layout with a sidearm.
-Again 2 equipment is just not favorable as the Amarr scout has the exact same layout with arguably better stats
Option 3: Sacrifice a HIGH slot for the sidearm at each tier
Probably the best idea that keeps the identity of the Amarr, gives the suit a unique factor, prevents damage mod stacking, and allows the Amarr logi to be an actual logi.
PRO is 2/5/4 with a sidearm
ADV is 1/4/3 with a sidearm
STD is 0/3/3 with a sidearm
Obviously the downside to this is that 7 slots is not as good as 8 slots, and not everyone wants a sidearm
But that's why I made a poll for the community to ultimately decide what they would like to see. I just feel like this option would make as many people happy as possible.
Option 4/5: Sacrifice a slot for the sidearm at PROTO ONLY
Pretty simple, basically either option 2 or 3, but you leave out the sidearms at STD and ADV. I threw this in just in case it was something people were interested in.
Sacrifice equipment slot
-STD and ADV still have 3 EQ slots for the ideal logi, but see no progression at Proto, where they still have 3 slots, but get a sidearm instead of that 4th slot
Sacrifice high slot
-STD and ADV will have the same layouts as the Assault suits (1/3/3 and 2/4/3), but no sidearm
-Going from ADV to PRO gives you only one low slot and the sidearm
Option 6: Sacrifice a LOW slot for the sidearm
This is yet another option that I included for those that think Gallente should have more low slots than Amarr and miss their 2/3 Amarr Sentinels or whatever.
PRO is 3/4/4 with a sidearm
ADV is 2/3/3 with a sidearm
STD is 1/2/3 with a sidearm
These just don't fit the current layouts for Amarr suits in Dust at all, even if it does still allow for the equipment slots to stay the same as other logistics.
Option 7: Sacrifice more than one slot for a sidearm
As crazy as this sounds, I've heard from quite a few people that the sidearm is worth more than one slot. Either one high one low, one high one equipment, or one low and one equipment.
We're trying to buff logistics here, but I wanted to make sure every voice and idea was able to be heard. This option pretty much keeps the Amarr logi where it is right now. In other words, if you think the Amarr logi progression is fine as it is, this is the option you should choose.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.05.29 11:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:
The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying.
I disagree with you fundamentally on this point. An amarr logi should be selected for its bonus, not the fact that it has a sidearm. The primary argument the last time balance decisions were presented to logi's was that the amarr logi needed to roam from its squads to set down uplinks/swap suits to get more uplinks/roam from squads to restock deployables and it had to stay alive to defend its uplinks.
With the massive buffs to the number of carried deployables and the introduction of bandwidth the amarr logi no longer needs to swap through 7 suits to have maximum numbers of ALL THE EQUIPMENT, nor does it need to roam as much or as far from its squads to put out / defend uplinks.
The reasons that were presented for Amarr keeping a sidearm no longer exist because they have largely been meaningfully addressed by rattati - yes you lose your spawn time reduction when you die as an amarr logi, that should be a tactical advantage given to a successful attacker.
With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to their benefit to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!).
Amarr should no longer be a balance outlier.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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killertojo42
KnightKiller's inc.
172
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Posted - 2015.05.29 11:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem is all amarr logis i know are too attached to their sidearm to lose it to get another equipment slot instead of it
Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit
rank 10 winmataar
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6
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Posted - 2015.05.29 12:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Amarr logi actually gives up a low slot and an equipment for the side arm. As is most logo's have the same slot load outs or amount of slots as their assault counter parts excluding equipment and all.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
923
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Posted - 2015.05.29 12:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
I like the idea of getting the sidearm at proto, instead of the 4th equipment. Not heard that idea before.
But I no longer use Amarr logis, swapped to Minmatar at the last free respec. |
Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
578
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 12:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't mind keeping the sidearm or gaining another equipment slot in exchange of the side arm as long as it has a PROPER slot lay out. 7 at pro while the Caldari have 9 doesn't make sense
Click me
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 12:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Losing the extra high slot makes the most sense for me.
- Fits racial lore
- Still combat effective, but not as as effective much as the amarr assault, who can put extra shileds or a damage mod. Assault gets more potential eHp, damage output, bonus to amarr weapons. Amarr Logi gets more combat effectiveness than the other logis, yet for its race, still speciallizes in Amarr tech, and can support the team.
- Keeps its main eHP in the low slots. 4 lows inst a whole lot to being with.
-Though it keeps its main tank, light weapon ,sidearm, and 4 equipment, it still isnt a slayer logi. At proto it has the slot count of ADV gallente assault. Vulnerable to proto tier assaults, all it means is that sure it can fight back more effectivley, but isn't going to be Yolo it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Thokk Nightshade
Montana Militia
856
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Posted - 2015.05.29 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think keeping the sidearm and losing a high slot makes the most rational sense. Amarr are Armor tankers so the highs can be abused with damage mods. Alao, as someone else mentioned, the idea of losing their sidearm bothers most current Amarr logis.
Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
7
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Posted - 2015.05.29 13:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
If we want **** balanced, **** needs to work the same way.
If there can be some type of tech 3 (it would be 3, right?) logi that lets every race sacrifice a slot for a sidearm, that would work.
Aloha snackbar
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.05.30 00:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Seems like the most popular option so far is just to get rid of the sidearm altogether.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 10:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
My Amarr logi wouldn't be the same without it's sidearm. It would be a bland slow gimpy reskinned [insert non Amarr race here] logi, as well as being horrifyingly punished for DARING to use it's racial weapons (see LR range restrictions and the upcoming castration of the ScR) Long story short, I'll never support removing that SA slot
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.05.31 05:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
more bumps
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 08:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't even care anymore. I just want the suit to not suck lol
The cup is not half empty as pacifists sayyyyyyyyy
AIV member.
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Slave of MORTE
449
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Posted - 2015.05.31 10:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op
Only here for legion ...or whatever the functional version of dust on pc will be
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 10:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op
The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade".
It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance.
Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced.
I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
594
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Posted - 2015.05.31 10:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Voted Option 3 as it's a great idea, but if the devs dont pick this one, I hope they'll pick the most simplistic one : Option 1.
On a side note, you dont talk about its bonus, but it should REMAIN on the uplinks you dropped even after your death (if you pick anoth Amarr Logi suit). Right now the bonus.. disappear..
Fix the game before trying to add anything else.
(Hint: hit detection, lags, glitches,.. you've got some work :) )
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P14GU3
UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 18:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
The amarr logi is the "front line" logi. It has to be able to defend itself long enough to get the squad/team using his equipment. I personally think that losing a high slot is more than enough of a trade, but can also see losing an equipment as well.
Losing the high slot is basically a must. It fits lore and keeps damage down via one less damage mod (to keep down its slayer logi abilities.)
Others say that a high slot isn't enough. That because it is a more combat oriented logi, it should carry less equipment. My issue with the 3 eq slots at proto is only having two at standard and possibly at advanced. Scouts have two slots and rattatti has talked of giving basic med frames two slots as well. 2 slots on a logi is just not enough.
I am also a fan of giving the caldari a sidearm and making it a more combat oriented role as well. Bonuses to deployable equipment are very lackluster, they need something better.
'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 18:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Option 8
Leave their progression alone, buff their base stats a bit for surviability and get the eq bonusing added in.
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 18:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
Option 9
Add a sidearm to the CalLogi in exchange for a slot, creating circumstance of deployables Logis running sidearms and active eq Logis not. "Outlier" eliminated.
Open-Beta Vet.
Egbinger Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.05.31 19:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers.
Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
7
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Posted - 2015.05.31 19:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
I feel that as a logi (picked up min logis again), I don't NEED a sidearm in most situations.
Were I to actually use a combat rifle on it, I might, but look at plasma rifles and scrambler rifles: they have MASSIVE mags. I run a plasma rifle on mine, and reloading in combat is rarely a problem when I actually need to do it.
Aloha snackbar
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Apocalyptic Destroyerr
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
217
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 19:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sacrifice High Slot for Sidearm. The only thing good enough for High slots is a Damage Mod or a Precision Enhancer. |
Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.05.31 20:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.
who said we wanted 4 equipment slots? I'm perfectly fine having only 3 equip that's enough for links reps and hives. Also no matter how many uplinks we can carry, the fact remains that our bonus doesnt work unless we are alive. we still a sidearm need to defend ourselves and our links.
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.05.31 20:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers.
This isn't balanced at all. STD and ADV would have one more slot than all of the other races.
The closest option is #4 which gives each suit 3 equipment, but only gives the sidearm at Proto, rather than a 4th equipment slot.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Maiden selena MORTIMOR
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
497
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Posted - 2015.05.31 21:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.
I never said the side arm made the amar logi viable only that option number 4 was the only one that kept the sidearm for a reasonable sacrifice that won't break the suit on any level
The death of love
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.05.31 21:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers. This isn't balanced at all. STD and ADV would have one more slot than all of the other races. The closest option is #4 which gives each suit 3 equipment, but only gives the sidearm at Proto, rather than a 4th equipment slot.
what about losing a slot(high or low) at std and getting it back at proto insted of a fourth equipment
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
601
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 05:53:00 -
[28] - Quote
As a proto logi, you should have 4 equipments, mostly when you are a "deployable" logi.. Looks like Option 3 is the most liked but, after thinking about this, I think it should only apply at proto lvl.
So basic and advanced amarr logi would have no sidearms, same slot layout as assault, and both 3 EQs.
But the proto variant would have a sidearm, 4 EQ but still 2 highs (as the ADV version).
This would create a real difference between ADV and PROTO, and doesn't look OP to me.
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Jenni Welsh
Reincarnation Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2015.06.02 07:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:
The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying.
I disagree with you fundamentally on this point. An amarr logi should be selected for its bonus, not the fact that it has a sidearm. The primary argument the last time balance decisions were presented to logi's was that the amarr logi needed to roam from its squads to set down uplinks/swap suits to get more uplinks/roam from squads to restock deployables and it had to stay alive to defend its uplinks. With the massive buffs to the number of carried deployables and the introduction of bandwidth the amarr logi no longer needs to swap through 7 suits to have maximum numbers of ALL THE EQUIPMENT, nor does it need to roam as much or as far from its squads to put out / defend uplinks. The reasons that were presented for Amarr keeping a sidearm no longer exist because they have largely been meaningfully addressed by rattati - yes you lose your spawn time reduction when you die as an amarr logi, that should be a tactical advantage given to a successful attacker. With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to their benefit to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!). Amarr should no longer be a balance outlier.
As someone that runs a proto Amarr logi I have to say that I wouldn't even care if they took one equipment slot away, just don't touch my sidearm. Many of the best places to support as an Amarr logi are also highly suseptable to dropship attack, so I feel I need a Swarm Launcher or the like to defend against the ship, but without the sidearm slot how am I supposed to defend myself against anyone/thing else??? If you really believe it gives that much of an advantage then just give all logis a sidearm slot and the Amarr something else to set them apart, but that sidearm is too critical to my staying alive and protecting my drop uplinks. |
Jenni Welsh
Reincarnation Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2015.06.02 07:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest. who said we wanted 4 equipment slots? I'm perfectly fine having only 3 equip that's enough for links reps and hives. Also no matter how many uplinks we can carry, the fact remains that our bonus doesnt work unless we are alive. we still a sidearm need to defend ourselves and our links.
What he said.  |
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.02 08:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
And yet with only 3 equipment slots, I can practically guarantee that amarr logi's will be second fiddle to any other in PC - Gallogi's provide scans, Minlogi's provide reps, Callogis (with 4 equip & their higher bandwidth) will be able to lay down uplinks and triage hives to fortify an area - without having to worry about 'losing the uplink bonus'.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.02 14:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:And yet with only 3 equipment slots, I can practically guarantee that amarr logi's will be second fiddle to any other in PC - Gallogi's provide scans, Minlogi's provide reps, Callogis (with 4 equip & their higher bandwidth) will be able to lay down uplinks and triage hives to fortify an area - without having to worry about 'losing the uplink bonus'.
ya know what if pc folk enjoy 8-15 sec uplinks then good on them the others are clearly better. However if they want to spawn in quickly the only the Amarr Logi can provide that. The only way that is possible though is if the Amarr Logi stays alive, even on a respawn there is a bug that prevents our bonus from applying to our old links.
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.06.02 22:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:And yet with only 3 equipment slots, I can practically guarantee that amarr logi's will be second fiddle to any other in PC - Gallogi's provide scans, Minlogi's provide reps, Callogis (with 4 equip & their higher bandwidth) will be able to lay down uplinks and triage hives to fortify an area - without having to worry about 'losing the uplink bonus'. ya know what if pc folk enjoy 8-15 sec uplinks then good on them the others are clearly better. However if they want to spawn in quickly the only the Amarr Logi can provide that. The only way that is possible though is if the Amarr Logi stays alive, even on a respawn there is a bug that prevents our bonus from applying to our old links.
You are very mistaken, this is not a bug, but very much intended.
Does my Repair tool bonus still aplly when I die as a minmatar logi? Does my scanner still scan when I'm dead as a gallente? What about ANY OTHER SUIT? If you are dead, if you are not ACTIVE on the battlefield, why should the bonus apply?
Be happy that uplinks and nanohives stay on the field after you die
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.06.03 03:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:And yet with only 3 equipment slots, I can practically guarantee that amarr logi's will be second fiddle to any other in PC - Gallogi's provide scans, Minlogi's provide reps, Callogis (with 4 equip & their higher bandwidth) will be able to lay down uplinks and triage hives to fortify an area - without having to worry about 'losing the uplink bonus'. ya know what if pc folk enjoy 8-15 sec uplinks then good on them the others are clearly better. However if they want to spawn in quickly the only the Amarr Logi can provide that. The only way that is possible though is if the Amarr Logi stays alive, even on a respawn there is a bug that prevents our bonus from applying to our old links. You are very mistaken, this is not a bug, but very much intended. Does my Repair tool bonus still aplly when I die as a minmatar logi? Does my scanner still scan when I'm dead as a gallente? What about ANY OTHER SUIT? If you are dead, if you are not ACTIVE on the battlefield, why should the bonus apply? Be happy that uplinks and nanohives stay on the field after you die
Passive scans work if you are still bleeding.
Dead minmatar logi respawning as minmatar logi still has rep bonus.
Dead gallente logi respawning as gallente logi still has scan bonus.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.06.03 03:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
The clear winner is
OPTION THREE (3)
Option 6 and 2 are acceptable alternatives.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
837
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Posted - 2015.06.03 05:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
What kind of drunken debate is going on here? There is no possible way ANY logi could ever equal their assault counterpart even if they were all matched up slot-wise with them and then added 3 equipment to boot.
Assault stats in almost EVERY rating but reps are better than a Logi's, even when the speed change hits, the assaults will still be a better choice for FPS battles. Stack the modules any way you want and an Assault will still do it better.
There is no need to worry that a Logi will be a better choice for FOTM slaying. For there to be such a shift The benefits gained by the logi in an update would have to place the Logi in territory where survival was increased dramatically enough to outweigh ALL other benefits the Assault class/suit has over a logi. No CCP update proposed has yet to offer anything like that.
Besides simply weaker stats in the future update all the Logi EQ slots will have to be filled, even with the lowest weighted item the available fitting space is dwarfed by the fitting power of the Assault to fit Proto Modules and Weapons (LW/SA/Grenades) well beyond the capacity of a logi.
and Speed? Rattati has expressed that he has the power to ensure that despite the speed changes Assaults will retain faster strafing speeds. (but the wiggle wiggle dancing talent must still be killed)
Assaults weep because their role is undefined. They are hurting inside and they lash out at their Logi brothers when they are drunk. Their time will come, after 3 years the spotlight will shine for only a moment upon the Logi class and then we will go right back to supporting you and you will have the light and attention of the world again. You will live through the changes and be stronger than ever at the end of these next few passes. Be brave, grab a drink in the Triage Ward, and just go back to shooting people in the face.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Molon Labe.
RUST415
837
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Posted - 2015.06.03 05:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Oh, and Logi SideArm for life! Have my 4th EQ slot
... On second thought screw that! I'm keeping my sidearm, gaining a 5th Low and getting a 4th EQ slot! I'm voting Independent this time around. Just because the options are offered doesn't mean they are the only or best options to be had.
I'm asking for more. Ultimately CCP will have to draw the line.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.06.03 09:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Oh, and Logi SideArm for life! Have my 4th EQ slot
... On second thought screw that! I'm keeping my sidearm, gaining a 5th Low and getting a 4th EQ slot! I'm voting Independent this time around. Just because the options are offered doesn't mean they are the only or best options to be had.
I'm asking for more. Ultimately CCP will have to draw the line.
Any more than 12 slots and you might as well ask for an officer dropsuit.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.06.06 11:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
50% vote to give up the high slot.
I will admit this post heavily biases that option, but it is also the most logical choice.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Skullmiser Vulcansu
311
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Posted - 2015.06.13 01:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'd rather sacrifice the equipment slot. I only ever use Shield extenders and precision enhancers in high slots. How does that make me a slayer? I just want more survivability.
I dislike most of these options, because they make the advanced suit worse. Sacrificing the equipment slot instead of high slots does not.
The only change to be made is the addition of one high or low slot at the prototype level.
If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.06.13 05:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:I'd rather sacrifice the equipment slot. I only ever use Shield extenders and precision enhancers in high slots. How does that make me a slayer? I just want more survivability.
I dislike most of these options, because they make the advanced suit worse. Sacrificing the equipment slot instead of high slots does not.
The only change to be made is the addition of one high or low slot at the prototype level.
You really want an advanced suit with two equipment slots? How does that make the suit better lol
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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jane stalin
free dropships for newbs
347
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:[quote=Slave of MORTE]
I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.
If I thought it work I would tell massive lies to defend my precious sidearm,
When I use a shotgun I love the bolt pistol
When I use the AScr or swarms I love the smg.
My solution is give all logis the option of having a sidearm. To disagree would be letting the terrorists win. |
Skullmiser Vulcansu
313
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Posted - 2015.06.28 13:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:I'd rather sacrifice the equipment slot. I only ever use Shield extenders and precision enhancers in high slots. How does that make me a slayer? I just want more survivability.
I dislike most of these options, because they make the advanced suit worse. Sacrificing the equipment slot instead of high slots does not.
The only change to be made is the addition of one high or low slot at the prototype level. You really want an advanced suit with two equipment slots? How does that make the suit better lol
No, I like the advanced suit how it is now.
I don't really care what happens at the standard tier. I never use it anymore. I'll soon use the Seraph in its stead.
I thought Amarr Logistics suits have always had less PG in exchange for the Sidearm. It's not as bad as it used to be (5), but it's still part of the trade off.
RedBleache's notion may be less overpowered than you realize. Fitting can be difficult.
Which Logistics suit do you use, |-Shayz-|?
If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
833
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Posted - 2015.06.29 19:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.
I'd say with the amarr logis pokey speed that it needs the sidearm more to defend itself. Ive been throwing a kincat on my min logis for a while now, and while I dont know how Gal/Cal logi feels these days, without the ability to run away that I have with the min logi, the lack of a sidearm would really chafe. As it is, when Im playing my Amarr Logi (only to level 3, so far), I feel like I need that sidearm, not because I need to defend my uplinks, but because I need it to defend myself. If I didnt have it I'd be much more vulnerable because of the slow ass speed (vulnerable enough to make the amarr logi not worth using).
This may be less of an issue after speed changes, we'll see. |
knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.29 20:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
the amarr logi is the best "combat" logi, really the only "combat" logi we have and the sidearm, like the person above just said, is more for defensive reasons since its slower and easier to kill in some cases. though it lacks equipment slots at STD and ADV, the sidearm really makes up for that in those regards even though two equipment is either going to make you choose to have equipment for your team or equipment for yourself. or just whatever you want.
Kin of the Vherokior tribe and warrior of the republic
Self proclaimed minmatar lore master
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Jenni Welsh
Reincarnation Incorporated
6
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Posted - 2015.06.30 15:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:the amarr logi is the best "combat" logi, really the only "combat" logi we have and the sidearm, like the person above just said, is more for defensive reasons since its slower and easier to kill in some cases. though it lacks equipment slots at STD and ADV, the sidearm really makes up for that in those regards even though two equipment is either going to make you choose to have equipment for your team or equipment for yourself. or just whatever you want.
The thing about the equipment slots is that if you are going to be using a repair tool you had better be running an expendable logi, the scanners really aren't all that helpful from what I have seen, and that just leaves the drop uplinks (which since having their numbers boosted) and nanohives (once again numbers boosted) being really useful so if you have good nanohives and good drop uplinks then you are probably going to die before you ever use up everything (unless) you are being stupid... and sure there are also the cloaks but... come on... Honestly if you wanna talk about cheating the logis the better point to be made is why the default profile and scanning ability of the logi is worse than the assault class (shouldn't that be the other way around). (The assaults also have more armor/shields but can run faster and longer, they all have sidearms, and they have almost as many module slots as the logi... why is the ONLY thing the logis have up on the assaults equipment slots[?] is the question most worth asking [and before someone points it out obviously the ability to have more equipment out at one time].) |
knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 20:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jenni Welsh wrote:knight guard fury wrote:the amarr logi is the best "combat" logi, really the only "combat" logi we have and the sidearm, like the person above just said, is more for defensive reasons since its slower and easier to kill in some cases. though it lacks equipment slots at STD and ADV, the sidearm really makes up for that in those regards even though two equipment is either going to make you choose to have equipment for your team or equipment for yourself. or just whatever you want.
The thing about the equipment slots is that if you are going to be using a repair tool you had better be running an expendable logi, the scanners really aren't all that helpful from what I have seen, and that just leaves the drop uplinks (which since having their numbers boosted) and nanohives (once again numbers boosted) being really useful so if you have good nanohives and good drop uplinks then you are probably going to die before you ever use up everything (unless) you are being stupid... and sure there are also the cloaks but... come on... Honestly if you wanna talk about cheating the logis the better point to be made is why the default profile and scanning ability of the logi is worse than the assault class (shouldn't that be the other way around). (The assaults also have more armor/shields but can run faster and longer, they all have sidearms, and they have almost as many module slots as the logi... why is the ONLY thing the logis have up on the assaults equipment slots[?] is the question most worth asking [and before someone points it out obviously the ability to have more equipment out at one time].)
i thought the logis had better scan resolution than their assault counter parts? and unless your just being reckless you dont really have to die that often, really just depends on the playstyle.
Kin of the Vherokior tribe and warrior of the republic
Self proclaimed minmatar lore master
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.06.30 20:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Logos have the same precision as assaults, and higher profiles than assaults.
Higher profiles is fine with me, but I would have their precision lowered to 40db since that lets them support their team with scans.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
845
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Posted - 2015.07.02 00:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
Despite the poll I abhor loosing H/L slots. Despite the disenting points about the ADV and Standard levels I don't believe that tier should ever limit the EQ slots. Logis should begin the class with all the EQ slots. Just as an assault starts with a side arm and grenade, a scout starts with 2EQ, Commandos start with 2 Light Weapons slots, and heavies start with 1Heavy weapons slot. The trademarks of the class are not attained later in the progression of the class. A Heavy must not wait until proto level to use a heavy weapon, in that line of reasoning a logi should start will all the eq slots at STD. and similar to the other classes increase the H/L slot count each tier.
Power cores and Tiercide solve these miserable issues. but if we must make plan in the interim... well, you have heard my opinions.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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