DUST Search - [Poll] Amarr Logi Progression/Sidearm Debate

Vitharr Foebane wrote:

MINA Longstrike wrote:

Slave of MORTE wrote:

The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op

The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade".

It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance.

Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced.

I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest.

who said we wanted 4 equipment slots? I'm perfectly fine having only 3 equip that's enough for links reps and hives. Also no matter how many uplinks we can carry, the fact remains that our bonus doesnt work unless we are alive. we still a sidearm need to defend ourselves and our links.

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I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:25:00 - [1] - Quote Alright guys, sorry for making so many feedback threads recently...I just want this all to stay as organized as possible because this next logistics update is very very VERY important to me. I've been thinking A LOT about anything that could go wrong with the changes. Specifically: -Any suit becoming OP -Logistics in general being abused -Possible issues with slot progression and fitting space -Any suit with an unfair, underwhelming, or non-logi style slot layout -The Amarr logi sidearm and how to account for it. Out of all four suits, the Amarr ran into the most problems...which should become apparent quickly as you read through this post. So, let me share my thoughts about the Amarr suit specifically, and at the end you can vote for how you think progression should be balanced around the sidearm. ____________________________________________________________________________ Overview The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying. While a sidearm allows for more versatile options when it comes to weapon selection, the gallente slot layout currently outshines the Amarr with not only one more low slot, but a 4th equipment. With logistics mainly being about maximizing support and survivability, the sidearm just doesn't make up for it being the slowest suit with the worst layout. Amarr in Dust have been standardized to have the most low slots of any race, as we have seen the Amarr sentinel chnged to 1/4, the Scout with 2/4, and the Assault with 3/5. Therefore we can assume the following layouts depending on the number of slots for Amarr: Three - 0/3 Four - 1/3 Five - 1/4 Six - 2/4 Seven - 2/5 Eight - 3/5 Amarr's racial bonus for all suits is a much larger pool of stamina. For being the slowest race, they are the joggers that are able to just keep running. While the true Amarrians armor tank, the extra low slots still allow for the usage of kin cats to negate the natural speed penalty and maximize on the stamina pool. _________________________________________________________________________ Here's the link to where you can vote: http://strawpoll.me/4482668 In the next section you will find a detailed look at each of the options in the poll. Please read through any options you are interested in or confused about before making your decision on the poll. I have designed it to only allow players to choose a single option, rather than choosing as many as you like, so please make your choice wisely. If there are any options I have forgotten about, or anything you'd like to add as feedback for the Amarr Logi, please reply to this thread. This is where any and all discussion about sidearms and the Amarr Logi should go. Feel free to debate and argue as much as you'd like in this thread rather than in the other feedback threads. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:26:00 - [2] - Quote Option 1: Just take away the sidearm This was my first initial idea. Why not make it easy and just standardize the suit with the other logistics. Give it 8 slots, 4 equipment, and remove the sidearm altogether at every tier. PRO is 3/5/4 ADV is 2/4/3 STD is 1/3/3 Unfortunately, this just makes the suit a slower gallente logi with a bonus to uplinks and just a tiny amount of extra armor. It loses its uniqueness and the defining factor for why you should skill into it. But Shayz, that's the difference between the Gallente and Amarr Assaults! Except that the Gal Ass gets a bonus to a CQC weapon that works better with high mobility and regen, while the Amarr Ass gets a bonus to a long-range weapon that works better with stacked HP. Option 2: Sacrifice an equipment slot for the sidearm at each tier This was the most rational idea, that while sound at first, becomes problematic as you look into it more The main issue is that having limited equipment slots is TERRIBLE for a "deployable" logi. Seeing as we can't make an exception for Amarr to have extra equipment slots at lower tiers, we end up taking away an equipment slot that really needs to be there for it to be a proper logi. At PRO you get a 3/5/3 layout with a sidearm. -With current stats, that's perfect and makes the PRO Amarr logi viable ...but if you add in the fact that logistics are getting a speed buff, there's almost no reason to use the Assault after this update unless you want to run a Scrambler. -3 equipment slots and a sidearm, with enough low slots to be super tanky, could put this suit into FOTM territory like we had with the Caldari Logi At ADV you get a 2/4/2 layout with a sidearm. -A lot of people don't like logistics having only 2 equipment slots, and this actually nerfs the Amarr suit at ADV as the suit currently has 3 equipment slots. At STD you get a 1/3/2 layout with a sidearm. -Again 2 equipment is just not favorable as the Amarr scout has the exact same layout with arguably better stats Option 3: Sacrifice a HIGH slot for the sidearm at each tier Probably the best idea that keeps the identity of the Amarr, gives the suit a unique factor, prevents damage mod stacking, and allows the Amarr logi to be an actual logi. PRO is 2/5/4 with a sidearm ADV is 1/4/3 with a sidearm STD is 0/3/3 with a sidearm Obviously the downside to this is that 7 slots is not as good as 8 slots, and not everyone wants a sidearm But that's why I made a poll for the community to ultimately decide what they would like to see. I just feel like this option would make as many people happy as possible. Option 4/5: Sacrifice a slot for the sidearm at PROTO ONLY Pretty simple, basically either option 2 or 3, but you leave out the sidearms at STD and ADV. I threw this in just in case it was something people were interested in. Sacrifice equipment slot -STD and ADV still have 3 EQ slots for the ideal logi, but see no progression at Proto, where they still have 3 slots, but get a sidearm instead of that 4th slot Sacrifice high slot -STD and ADV will have the same layouts as the Assault suits (1/3/3 and 2/4/3), but no sidearm -Going from ADV to PRO gives you only one low slot and the sidearm Option 6: Sacrifice a LOW slot for the sidearm This is yet another option that I included for those that think Gallente should have more low slots than Amarr and miss their 2/3 Amarr Sentinels or whatever. PRO is 3/4/4 with a sidearm ADV is 2/3/3 with a sidearm STD is 1/2/3 with a sidearm These just don't fit the current layouts for Amarr suits in Dust at all, even if it does still allow for the equipment slots to stay the same as other logistics. Option 7: Sacrifice more than one slot for a sidearm As crazy as this sounds, I've heard from quite a few people that the sidearm is worth more than one slot. Either one high one low, one high one equipment, or one low and one equipment. We're trying to buff logistics here, but I wanted to make sure every voice and idea was able to be heard. This option pretty much keeps the Amarr logi where it is right now. In other words, if you think the Amarr logi progression is fine as it is, this is the option you should choose. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:34:00 - [3] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying. I disagree with you fundamentally on this point. An amarr logi should be selected for its bonus, not the fact that it has a sidearm. The primary argument the last time balance decisions were presented to logi's was that the amarr logi needed to roam from its squads to set down uplinks/swap suits to get more uplinks/roam from squads to restock deployables and it had to stay alive to defend its uplinks. With the massive buffs to the number of carried deployables and the introduction of bandwidth the amarr logi no longer needs to swap through 7 suits to have maximum numbers of ALL THE EQUIPMENT, nor does it need to roam as much or as far from its squads to put out / defend uplinks. The reasons that were presented for Amarr keeping a sidearm no longer exist because they have largely been meaningfully addressed by rattati - yes you lose your spawn time reduction when you die as an amarr logi, that should be a tactical advantage given to a successful attacker. With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to their benefit to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!). Amarr should no longer be a balance outlier. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 172	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:57:00 - [4] - Quote The problem is all amarr logis i know are too attached to their sidearm to lose it to get another equipment slot instead of it Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit rank 10 winmataar
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:03:00 - [5] - Quote The Amarr logi actually gives up a low slot and an equipment for the side arm. As is most logo's have the same slot load outs or amount of slots as their assault counter parts excluding equipment and all. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 923	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:10:00 - [6] - Quote I like the idea of getting the sidearm at proto, instead of the 4th equipment. Not heard that idea before. But I no longer use Amarr logis, swapped to Minmatar at the last free respec.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 578	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:16:00 - [7] - Quote I don't mind keeping the sidearm or gaining another equipment slot in exchange of the side arm as long as it has a PROPER slot lay out. 7 at pro while the Caldari have 9 doesn't make sense Click me
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 12:42:00 - [8] - Quote Losing the extra high slot makes the most sense for me. - Fits racial lore - Still combat effective, but not as as effective much as the amarr assault, who can put extra shileds or a damage mod. Assault gets more potential eHp, damage output, bonus to amarr weapons. Amarr Logi gets more combat effectiveness than the other logis, yet for its race, still speciallizes in Amarr tech, and can support the team. - Keeps its main eHP in the low slots. 4 lows inst a whole lot to being with. -Though it keeps its main tank, light weapon ,sidearm, and 4 equipment, it still isnt a slayer logi. At proto it has the slot count of ADV gallente assault. Vulnerable to proto tier assaults, all it means is that sure it can fight back more effectivley, but isn't going to be Yolo it. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 856	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:32:00 - [9] - Quote I think keeping the sidearm and losing a high slot makes the most rational sense. Amarr are Armor tankers so the highs can be abused with damage mods. Alao, as someone else mentioned, the idea of losing their sidearm bothers most current Amarr logis. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:50:00 - [10] - Quote If we want ** balanced, ** needs to work the same way. If there can be some type of tech 3 (it would be 3, right?) logi that lets every race sacrifice a slot for a sidearm, that would work. Aloha snackbar

I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:19:00 - [11] - Quote Seems like the most popular option so far is just to get rid of the sidearm altogether. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:32:00 - [12] - Quote My Amarr logi wouldn't be the same without it's sidearm. It would be a bland slow gimpy reskinned [insert non Amarr race here] logi, as well as being horrifyingly punished for DARING to use it's racial weapons (see LR range restrictions and the upcoming castration of the ScR) Long story short, I'll never support removing that SA slot Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 05:40:00 - [13] - Quote more bumps 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 08:23:00 - [14] - Quote I don't even care anymore. I just want the suit to not suck lol The cup is not half empty as pacifists sayyyyyyyyy AIV member.
Slave of MORTE 449	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:09:00 - [15] - Quote The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op Only here for legion ...or whatever the functional version of dust on pc will be
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:34:00 - [16] - Quote Slave of MORTE wrote: The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 594	Posted - 2015.05.31 10:45:00 - [17] - Quote Voted Option 3 as it's a great idea, but if the devs dont pick this one, I hope they'll pick the most simplistic one : Option 1. On a side note, you dont talk about its bonus, but it should REMAIN on the uplinks you dropped even after your death (if you pick anoth Amarr Logi suit). Right now the bonus.. disappear.. Fix the game before trying to add anything else. (Hint: hit detection, lags, glitches,.. you've got some work :) )
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:42:00 - [18] - Quote The amarr logi is the "front line" logi. It has to be able to defend itself long enough to get the squad/team using his equipment. I personally think that losing a high slot is more than enough of a trade, but can also see losing an equipment as well. Losing the high slot is basically a must. It fits lore and keeps damage down via one less damage mod (to keep down its slayer logi abilities.) Others say that a high slot isn't enough. That because it is a more combat oriented logi, it should carry less equipment. My issue with the 3 eq slots at proto is only having two at standard and possibly at advanced. Scouts have two slots and rattatti has talked of giving basic med frames two slots as well. 2 slots on a logi is just not enough. I am also a fan of giving the caldari a sidearm and making it a more combat oriented role as well. Bonuses to deployable equipment are very lackluster, they need something better. 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:50:00 - [19] - Quote Option 8 Leave their progression alone, buff their base stats a bit for surviability and get the eq bonusing added in. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:59:00 - [20] - Quote Option 9 Add a sidearm to the CalLogi in exchange for a slot, creating circumstance of deployables Logis running sidearms and active eq Logis not. "Outlier" eliminated. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.31 19:09:00 - [21] - Quote Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.31 19:41:00 - [22] - Quote I feel that as a logi (picked up min logis again), I don't NEED a sidearm in most situations. Were I to actually use a combat rifle on it, I might, but look at plasma rifles and scrambler rifles: they have MASSIVE mags. I run a plasma rifle on mine, and reloading in combat is rarely a problem when I actually need to do it. Aloha snackbar
Apocalyptic Destroyerr Shining Flame Amarr Empire 217	Posted - 2015.05.31 19:52:00 - [23] - Quote Sacrifice High Slot for Sidearm. The only thing good enough for High slots is a Damage Mod or a Precision Enhancer.
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.31 20:21:00 - [24] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest. who said we wanted 4 equipment slots? I'm perfectly fine having only 3 equip that's enough for links reps and hives. Also no matter how many uplinks we can carry, the fact remains that our bonus doesnt work unless we are alive. we still a sidearm need to defend ourselves and our links. Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 20:57:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers. This isn't balanced at all. STD and ADV would have one more slot than all of the other races. The closest option is #4 which gives each suit 3 equipment, but only gives the sidearm at Proto, rather than a 4th equipment slot. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 497	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:23:00 - [26] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest. I never said the side arm made the amar logi viable only that option number 4 was the only one that kept the sidearm for a reasonable sacrifice that won't break the suit on any level The death of love
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:24:00 - [27] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Option 7: Amarr Logi sacrifices an equipment slot for a siearm and gets 3 equipment at all tiers. This isn't balanced at all. STD and ADV would have one more slot than all of the other races. The closest option is #4 which gives each suit 3 equipment, but only gives the sidearm at Proto, rather than a 4th equipment slot. what about losing a slot(high or low) at std and getting it back at proto insted of a fourth equipment Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 601	Posted - 2015.06.02 05:53:00 - [28] - Quote As a proto logi, you should have 4 equipments, mostly when you are a "deployable" logi.. Looks like Option 3 is the most liked but, after thinking about this, I think it should only apply at proto lvl. So basic and advanced amarr logi would have no sidearms, same slot layout as assault, and both 3 EQs. But the proto variant would have a sidearm, 4 EQ but still 2 highs (as the ADV version). This would create a real difference between ADV and PROTO, and doesn't look OP to me. WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
Jenni Welsh Reincarnation Incorporated 0	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:49:00 - [29] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: The defining characteristic of the Amarr Logi suit should be its unrivaled effectiveness in combat due to the sidearm. Originally only available at the prototype level, the progression from ADV to PRO gave you an additional low slot and the unique sidearm. In Uprising, an update gave the sidearm to Amarr at all tiers, making the progression from ADV > PRO not as satisfying. I disagree with you fundamentally on this point. An amarr logi should be selected for its bonus, not the fact that it has a sidearm. The primary argument the last time balance decisions were presented to logi's was that the amarr logi needed to roam from its squads to set down uplinks/swap suits to get more uplinks/roam from squads to restock deployables and it had to stay alive to defend its uplinks. With the massive buffs to the number of carried deployables and the introduction of bandwidth the amarr logi no longer needs to swap through 7 suits to have maximum numbers of ALL THE EQUIPMENT, nor does it need to roam as much or as far from its squads to put out / defend uplinks. The reasons that were presented for Amarr keeping a sidearm no longer exist because they have largely been meaningfully addressed by rattati - yes you lose your spawn time reduction when you die as an amarr logi, that should be a tactical advantage given to a successful attacker. With the higher bandwidth cap present on amarr logi's it would actually be greatly to their benefit to trade that sidearm for a fourth equipment (two sets of different uplinks while still carrying injector & rep tool? options for proxy mines or nanohives or scanners? yes please!). Amarr should no longer be a balance outlier. As someone that runs a proto Amarr logi I have to say that I wouldn't even care if they took one equipment slot away, just don't touch my sidearm. Many of the best places to support as an Amarr logi are also highly suseptable to dropship attack, so I feel I need a Swarm Launcher or the like to defend against the ship, but without the sidearm slot how am I supposed to defend myself against anyone/thing else??? If you really believe it gives that much of an advantage then just give all logis a sidearm slot and the Amarr something else to set them apart, but that sidearm is too critical to my staying alive and protecting my drop uplinks.
Jenni Welsh Reincarnation Incorporated 0	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:51:00 - [30] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: The loss of the high slot is the only option i see that leaves the amar logi with a side arm and viable ..and I agree something will have to be done prior to the speed changes or the suit will become op The sidearm isnt necessary to be 'viable', and in fact the 'trade' between sidearm or highslot qualifies as what I would consider a 'non-choice'. Having a sidearm >>>> having ~70 extra EHP, which is why so many people are entirely ready to make the "trade". It's being looked at from a pure optimization standpoint ("how overpowered will ccp let me be with 4 equipment, a light weapon, a sidearm, a grenade, 2 highs and 5 lows... I trade a single highslot for +3 equipment over an assault!") when it shouldn't be. In the last discussion about logi's I was a big defender of the sidearm because they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their links, with the buffs to carried equipment and bandwidth changes the amarr logi no longer needs the sidearm. I'd go so far as to say many still want the sidearm because they've "always" had it, not out of any actual desire for balance. Logi's need to conform to 4 equip, 8 slots, light weapon, grenade, no sidearm. Giving the amarr a layout of 4 equip, 7 slots(2highs, 5 lows), light weapon, sidearm, grenade is disgustingly unbalanced. I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say that I do not believe that people are debating this with good intentions or without serious conflicts of interest. who said we wanted 4 equipment slots? I'm perfectly fine having only 3 equip that's enough for links reps and hives. Also no matter how many uplinks we can carry, the fact remains that our bonus doesnt work unless we are alive. we still a sidearm need to defend ourselves and our links. What he said.



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