DUST Search - I thought CCP did not want hardeners to make tanks invincible.

Drogan Reeth wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Drogan Reeth wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Lying.

Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping.

Disclaimer:

The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514

The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play.

I run with 2 gunners in my HAV.

It should take 3 people to try and combat me.

So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip?

AV has had its fun in the sun for about 2.5 years and still does where DS are concerned, AV is not the be all and end all button that it currently is.

Disclaimer:

The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514

But 3 ppl can't combat you. One side is invincible the other is not.

CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''

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Drogan Reeth Free Trade Corp 89	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:46:00 - [1] - Quote Last game I watched as a tank turn on his armor hardeners and then take hits from 2 swarms and a blaster installation while his armor did not move from 100% until his hardener turned off and he ran away.
Everything Dies Not Another Dust Corporation 1286	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:49:00 - [2] - Quote A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof
Drogan Reeth Free Trade Corp 89	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:52:00 - [3] - Quote That makes for very ****** game play. Because you spawn in as AV and shoot at the tank hopelessly doing nothing. Then the tank runs to the other side of the map and you're stuck there again doing nothing cause there's now nothing to shoot at.
Michael Epic Horizons' Edge 671	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:53:00 - [4] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. So its safe to say that the whole entirety of the tankers in the game are now hit and run sissies? Michael Epic's "EPIC" Proposal to his girlfriend :D
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3655	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:53:00 - [5] - Quote easy to kill if you stalk them. Also shoving a FG round or D-modded Rail Round up their bum goes a long way, does a hefty amount of damage before they get a chance to activate those hardeners. Also note that a FG round gets more bonus damage then normal against the weak point of an HAV, over 170% even against shields, about double against armor, a single IAFG round to the engine block will absolutely trash a double-hardened HAV if you catch them by surprise, or even OHK if using a D-modded Breach. It's also a good idea to start littering proximity REs around if you see people running dual-hardeners. Easy to kill with those. When HAVing I always before hand suit up in my logi suit, packs a D-modded swarm, AV nades, and three groups of proxies (one of each kind). I kid you not I net an HAV and 3-4 LAVs every match this way just from the proxies I place in key locations. Also to the HAVers out there, a single proxie will take out any and every JLAV due to triggering their REs with the splash. You can easily create "safe zones" this way as you can spread them hella thin if just warding against JLAVers. Insanely useful. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4350	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:53:00 - [6] - Quote Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 4976	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:57:00 - [7] - Quote Sadly its cuz you AV guys have cried for so long to get tanks nerfed.. Too bad you don't get a free 150 WP anymore you actually have to work for it. Imagine that, actually having to use teamwork for once. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Drogan Reeth Free Trade Corp 89	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:58:00 - [8] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play.
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 10738	Posted - 2015.03.20 17:58:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 Not lying, just not exactly whats happening. As you said, he's dealing damage, but not enough to even matter to regen. He might as well NOT be taking damage at that point. I'm personally fine with it. If a tank pops hardeners and tries to sit on a point, I just drop a Nanohive and start spamming Lai Dais. The tank is going to move. Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3088	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:00:00 - [10] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play. It's a tank actually being a tank once again. it was fine during Chromosome, now they're part-way back. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3655	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:01:00 - [11] - Quote Doing some quick math, if running dual hardeners and dual complex reppers on a maddie, you are effectively regaining a bit more then 460 EHP/sec armor wise. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4354	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:01:00 - [12] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 Not lying, just not exactly whats happening. As you said, he's dealing damage, but not enough to even matter to regen. He might as well NOT be taking damage at that point. I'm personally fine with it. If a tank pops hardeners and tries to sit on a point, I just drop a Nanohive and start spamming Lai Dais. The tank is going to move. 3 Lai Dai deal 5.5k damage. Though they need magnetic seeking BS taken out because if you can't hit a HAV you need to uninstall. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4354	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:04:00 - [13] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play. I run with 2 gunners in my HAV. It should take 3 people to try and combat me. So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? AV has had its fun in the sun for about 2.5 years and still does where DS are concerned, AV is not the be all and end all button that it currently is. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3655	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:05:00 - [14] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 3 Lai Dai deal 5.5k damage. Though they need magnetic seeking BS taken out because if you can't hit a HAV you need to uninstall. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 BS is profanity, whether abbreviated or not. I'm suing you for nullifying your disclaimer. Please remove your disclaimer, or edit your post, or I shall be forced to take legal measures. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4354	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:07:00 - [15] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 3 Lai Dai deal 5.5k damage. Though they need magnetic seeking BS taken out because if you can't hit a HAV you need to uninstall. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 BS is profanity, whether abbreviated or not. I'm suing you for nullifying your disclaimer. Please remove your disclaimer, or edit your post, or I shall be forced to take legal measures. Prove it? What does BS stand for? Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Drogan Reeth Free Trade Corp 89	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:07:00 - [16] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play. I run with 2 gunners in my HAV. It should take 3 people to try and combat me. So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? AV has had its fun in the sun for about 2.5 years and still does where DS are concerned, AV is not the be all and end all button that it currently is. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 But 3 ppl can't combat you. One side is invincible the other is not.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4354	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:13:00 - [17] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play. I run with 2 gunners in my HAV. It should take 3 people to try and combat me. So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? AV has had its fun in the sun for about 2.5 years and still does where DS are concerned, AV is not the be all and end all button that it currently is. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 But 3 ppl can't combat you. One side is invincible the other is not. AV is hard to hit with a gimped blaster, so OP while they get weapons which do all the aiming for them. I agree AV should not be invincible. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3655	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:13:00 - [18] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: But 3 ppl can't combat you. One side is invincible the other is not. They can though if using the right gear, either nail him while his hardeners are on cooldown, sucker punch him with only a handful of proxies, or use three HAVs which will certainly break his tank, or set yourself up while he's shooting up the town to nail him when he disengages (going back to the first method), or see how well his tank holds up against three IAFGs from three people who don't suck at aiming. Alternatively, ram a JLAV up his bum, using a few REs if you can get him without hardeners, or "go nuts" with REs if he is running hardeners. Nothing can survive a "stacked" JLAV. This is assuming he's running a pair of hardeners, if he's running just one then a couple of AV (or one really tricked out one) can certainly force him to leave. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1076	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:13:00 - [19] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. And yet with 2 armor hardeners on and one enhanced 120 plate and complex heavy rep just one swarmer can destroy my tank before the hardeners get on cooldown if I don't kill that swarmer, what fit that swarmer is using however I do not know. 2 hardeners active and proxies can still hit for 14k damage, done by a single player. And remotes on a jihad can hit for 11k. 2 hardeners active and 2 swarmers will kill you if you are using the fit I mentioned earlier and you don't manage to kill them first. 2 hardeners active and even forges hit for way over 2k if they hit the weakspot, for how much over 2k and with what type of forges I cannot say, what I can say is that I had 2.1k armor left and 2 hardeners on and a single Gastun's forge hit killed me. So double hardened tanks are still more than possible to kill, even solo. It's just that AV players want all vehicles popping instantly as they just look at them. EDIT: If you guys don't believe me I will just go out there and record how things are and make a montage out of it. Maybe.
robin williams' ghost whisky tango foxtrot sir 1066	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:15:00 - [20] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. So its safe to say that the whole entirety of the tankers in the game are now hit and run sissies? Yup, we might as well call them scouts now Robin Williams endorses this corp

Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 923	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:22:00 - [21] - Quote robin williams' ghost wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. So its safe to say that the whole entirety of the tankers in the game are now hit and run sissies? Yup, we might as well call them scouts now Careful... Someone might remember the Black ops hav and the next thing you know we'll have cloaked tanks.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1076	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:26:00 - [22] - Quote On another note: if tanks are invincible, how is it that I can see them? #Logic
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 200	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:29:00 - [23] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. Well, why did he nerf triple shield hardened vehicles? That's the real question Entering the void and becoming wind. Message for 1v1 air to air
Michael Epic Horizons' Edge 672	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:33:00 - [24] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Sadly its cuz you AV guys have cried for so long to get tanks nerfed.. Too bad you don't get a free 150 WP anymore you actually have to work for it. Imagine that, actually having to use teamwork for once. I can score 150pts in seconds hitting a tank with a forge gun 'bruh lol I don't even have to kill the tank to get dual 75's with a forge gun Michael Epic's "EPIC" Proposal to his girlfriend :D
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3658	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:33:00 - [25] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: On another note: if tanks are invincible, how is it that I can see them? #Logic Are you mixing up invincible with invisible, or is this a reference of something? "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1076	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:35:00 - [26] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. Well, why did he nerf triple shield hardened vehicles? That's the real question Because you can rotate 3 shield hardeners to keep them on constantly, you can do the same with 2 armor hardeners, but armor harderners never had 60% damage resistance from a single hardener.
Thumb Green The Valyrian Mercenary Army 2172	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:39:00 - [27] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty hipster! Rated [TV-MA]
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3658	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:43:00 - [28] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. He isn't disputing that though, he is saying that naturally he's only going to engage with hardeners on, and that no one sane would do it with them off because AVers will pop you. He wasn't disputing how many "clips or shots" it shoudl take to kill an HAV with hardeners off, he was acknowledging that they ARE a threat. It seems you're bringing in baggage from other "Us VS Them" threads into here, cut that crap out. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1076	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:48:00 - [29] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. I guess it would have something do with balance. Tanks are huge targets out there unable to hide very well and have most of the relevant areas in maps denied from them. Infantry are small and can easily place themselves in positions where tanks cannot possibly hurt them but they then can easily combat those tanks regardless. And there's no such thing as aim assist for tanks so hit detection is horrible and tanks cannot usually strafe and stuff to avoid infantry from hitting those huge hitboxes. Not to mention those fire and forget swarms that do the aiming for you, as if you really needed any more help to hit those huge hitboxes. I mean, if infantry and tanks were remotely alike then yeah, I guess multiple AV kills per AV weapon clip would be balanced, but as your chance to miss is so low unless you just suck at this game, I don't see why you would need to 1 shot tanks with AV weapons so you can have your multiple AV kills per clip. Anyway, what do I know? I'm stupid.
Thumb Green The Valyrian Mercenary Army 2172	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:48:00 - [30] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. He isn't disputing that though, he is saying that naturally he's only going to engage with hardeners on, and that no one sane would do it with them off because AVers will pop you. He wasn't disputing how many "clips or shots" it shoudl take to kill an HAV with hardeners off, he was acknowledging that they ARE a threat. It seems you're bringing in baggage from other "Us VS Them" threads into here, cut that crap out. No he's saying AV shouldn't be able to take out a tank in a single clip and has always said that. Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty hipster! Rated [TV-MA]



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