DUST Search - I thought CCP did not want hardeners to make tanks invincible.

Thumb Green wrote:

Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:

Thumb Green wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip?

Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job?

Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support.

He isn't disputing that though, he is saying that naturally he's only going to engage with hardeners on, and that no one sane would do it with them off because AVers will pop you. He wasn't disputing how many "clips or shots" it shoudl take to kill an HAV with hardeners off, he was acknowledging that they ARE a threat.

It seems you're bringing in baggage from other "Us VS Them" threads into here, cut that crap out.

No he's saying AV shouldn't be able to take out a tank in a single clip and has always said that.

CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''

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DUST Fiend 16147	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:53:00 - [31] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. The problem is that really breaks down when they're actively looking to reduce the size of maps in order to increase performance, which equates to less time required to flee to the safe zone, meaning waves of opportunity becomes waves of invincibility. I just wish flying was viable. Unless you run pure infantry gank python with a full coordinated squad or more, preferably with some tanks on your side...I don't see how dropships are in any way shape or form relevant right now. They need the same treatment, and could honestly use the introduction of medium turrets, since they're medium vehicles and all I don't know what DUST is anymore haha, it's fun to watch though. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3659	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:54:00 - [32] - Quote If they want to increase performance, then why not cut down on the size of the insanely huge redline. I mean, seriously... Holy hell. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
General Mosquito Kinsho Swords Caldari State 45	Posted - 2015.03.20 18:58:00 - [33] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: But 3 ppl can't combat you. One side is invincible the other is not. 3 infantry with Lai Dais will absolutely nuke any tank. They all don't even need to hit. anything more than 4 is normally a sure kill if you get them thrown close together, but even if you spread them out, 9 packed AV grenades are blowing stuff up. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 201	Posted - 2015.03.20 19:05:00 - [34] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Shamarskii Simon wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. Well, why did he nerf triple shield hardened vehicles? That's the real question Because you can rotate 3 shield hardeners to keep them on constantly, you can do the same with 2 armor hardeners, but armor harderners never had 60% damage resistance from a single hardener. Noo I mean into echo. Not 1.7 Entering the void and becoming wind. Message for 1v1 air to air
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 941	Posted - 2015.03.20 19:08:00 - [35] - Quote Armour hardener lasts how long? This is no wave of opportunity, it's a bloody tsunami! I'd rather if we're going to be tanking massive amounts of damage for a time, just make it take 0 damage for 5 seconds with a light hardener, or 15 seconds with a heavy hardener. Light can have a much lower cooldown, designed for multiple uses in a battle, to block a few high powered shots at opportune moments, while the heavy can be on a 50 second or so cooldown for the current 'jump out the redzone, shoot something, jump back in' tactic.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4356	Posted - 2015.03.20 19:14:00 - [36] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. He isn't disputing that though, he is saying that naturally he's only going to engage with hardeners on, and that no one sane would do it with them off because AVers will pop you. He wasn't disputing how many "clips or shots" it shoudl take to kill an HAV with hardeners off, he was acknowledging that they ARE a threat. It seems you're bringing in baggage from other "Us VS Them" threads into here, cut that crap out. No he's saying AV shouldn't be able to take out a tank in a single clip and has always said that. AV can already take out a tank in a single clip. I need hardeners just so i can get out of the redline unless i want my 61mil SP 1.2mil HAV to get instagibbed by a player with 5mil SP and a 50k AV fit. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 10739	Posted - 2015.03.20 19:45:00 - [37] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Not lying, just not exactly whats happening. As you said, he's dealing damage, but not enough to even matter to regen. He might as well NOT be taking damage at that point. I'm personally fine with it. If a tank pops hardeners and tries to sit on a point, I just drop a Nanohive and start spamming Lai Dais. The tank is going to move. 3 Lai Dai deal 5.5k damage. Though they need magnetic seeking BS taken out because if you can't hit a HAV you need to uninstall. Eh. Their tracking is garbage anyways. Wyirkomis are different though. You need that tracking to hit LAV's. Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
Thumb Green The Valyrian Mercenary Army 2172	Posted - 2015.03.20 19:51:00 - [38] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: AV can already take out a tank in a single clip. Only against bad tankers but I didn't say it couldn't, my comment was about your asinine belief that it should take more than one clip. Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty hipster! Rated [TV-MA]
Grimmiers 819	Posted - 2015.03.20 20:45:00 - [39] - Quote I made a thread about passive and active modules affecting cooldowns and active duration. Activating any combination of modules would deplete your capacity faster and passive modules would increase cooldown times. This would be to balance any active armor repairers and passive hardeners added to the game, both of which are needed for lavs/dropships to step it up. So if someone did turn on 2 hardeners the active duration would be cut in haf (about 18 seconds). It's like having a capacitor, but is really a stacking penalty only if you choose activate all at once.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 530	Posted - 2015.03.21 03:32:00 - [40] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: That makes for very ****** game play. Because you spawn in as AV and shoot at the tank hopelessly doing nothing. Then the tank runs to the other side of the map and you're stuck there again doing nothing cause there's now nothing to shoot at. Then you must be smart amd actually work for your kill. Go to the other side of the map where you know the tank's path of retreat will be and viola, a kill you can be proud of instead of scrubbing it. Tanks usually make predictable patrols around the map. Death is a serious businessGÇª So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.

Drogan Reeth Free Trade Corp 89	Posted - 2015.03.21 03:39:00 - [41] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: Drogan Reeth wrote: That makes for very ****** game play. Because you spawn in as AV and shoot at the tank hopelessly doing nothing. Then the tank runs to the other side of the map and you're stuck there again doing nothing cause there's now nothing to shoot at. Then you must be smart amd actually work for your kill. Go to the other side of the map where you know the tank's path of retreat will be and viola, a kill you can be proud of instead of scrubbing it. Tanks usually make predictable patrols around the map. Stop making silly excuses' for bad game play.
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5853	Posted - 2015.03.21 03:44:00 - [42] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: Last game I watched as a tank turn on his armor hardeners and then take hits from 2 swarms and a blaster installation while his armor did not move from 100% until his hardener turned off and he ran away. That only works because he had hardeners AND those stupid passive repair modules. Those need to go back to being Active modules again. I support Keshava for Gallente Specialist HAV R.I.P. Kesha
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 528	Posted - 2015.03.21 04:32:00 - [43] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Sadly its cuz you AV guys have cried for so long to get tanks nerfed.. Too bad you don't get a free 150 WP anymore you actually have to work for it. Imagine that, actually having to use teamwork for once. Yeah we cried so long for them to get nerfed we had to deal with triple rep madrugers for months, then nearly invincible gunnlogis for months, then completely invincible rep/hardener madrugers in this update. I guess we can keep bitching though, since you still dont have a button that just kills everything on the map yet. Maybe you guys will finally think its balanced once hotfix freddy comes out and that module gets implemented. Meanwhile tankers still have the gall to sit there and imply that AV is overpowered, when it never has been as long as I've been playing. Always with you its: well you just have to use proto swarms, well you just need to use a min commando, well you just need prof 5, well you just need to hit the weak spot, well you just need to blah blah blah. Its unreal all the contortions you tell everyone else to go through just so you can keep believing tanks are not an absurdly overpowered crutch for cunts to abuse. mad/10, would rage again.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 528	Posted - 2015.03.21 04:34:00 - [44] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Drogan Reeth wrote: Last game I watched as a tank turn on his armor hardeners and then take hits from 2 swarms and a blaster installation while his armor did not move from 100% until his hardener turned off and he ran away. That only works because he had hardeners AND those stupid passive repair modules. Those need to go back to being Active modules again. Making them active modules wont fix a thing, the waves of opportunity design philosophy is broken by design when taken to the extreme we have it in now, because #1: tanks are invincible when the modules are active, which is ******* horrible for everyone, and #2: tanks are paper thin when they aren't active, which is boring for the tank AND for the AV players because the tank is just going to sit in the redline until modules are back.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 201	Posted - 2015.03.21 04:46:00 - [45] - Quote All I say to this is fix the hardeners. armor > shield because of: no rep delay, lower fitting than shield hardener, longer duration, shorter cool down ALL while both = 40% Just a thought. Entering the void and becoming wind. Message for 1v1 air to air
nelo kazuma Da Short Buss Driving School 51	Posted - 2015.03.21 08:16:00 - [46] - Quote id honestly be fine with tanks if they only where allowed to use 1 hardener that would make em viable but not indestructable and would give infantry time to regroup and counter but with 2 they just come back waaaaayyy to quick
nelo kazuma Da Short Buss Driving School 51	Posted - 2015.03.21 08:18:00 - [47] - Quote even better make armor reps an active module again that would be a the best decision tanks would spend more time activating modules and would have to calculate their atks better and be forced to retreat
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1431	Posted - 2015.03.21 09:10:00 - [48] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: [Meanwhile tankers still have the gall to sit there and imply that AV is overpowered, when it never has been as long as I've been playing. Were you here during 1.4? If so, Swarms were ridiculously OP: 400m lock-on/travel with more damage than current with a marginal decrease in speed and lock-on time - though that just meant that by the time you knew you were under fire, the third volley was about 50m from you... But really, I hate this V/AV roundabout of: "But you were OP! "No you were OP!" "No you..." Pointing fingers doesn't help us achieve balance, it just makes people think they're entitled to a period of overpoweredness, which is not only dumb but untrue (since both sides have gone through periods of insane power.) Put your baggage away and focus on actually making the game better, not nuking/super-buffing one side or the other. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1170	Posted - 2015.03.21 10:56:00 - [49] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. Tanking is the only position where you are guaranteed to be engaged by at lest 2 people at any one time. Every other position can pick and choose their engagements at times. Dropsuits get to choose when and where they are seen, until scanners come into play. Tanks can be seen through walls now at 100m out just by pointing a gun in their direction. The icon highlights through walls. There is no choice of when and where a tank gets to engage, unless they can ambush a target quickly. Even then most others can react to the motion and noise to either avoid or hunt the target. You open a map, you can follow the tank anywhere. If you get caught by the tank, it's practically your own fault. Dropsuits can pick and choose when they will permit a tank to engage them, more often than not, it's when they have AV gear on. ---Oh! I also see lots of AV users still doing the "I'm invincible!" attack style... What is it you ask? They stand in the middle of an open area and fire their weapon continuously at the tank without trying to move. A good portion of them don't have any cover for more than 100m in any direction. Not only that, but they're using Militia Swarms and expecting the tank with hardeners on to blow up. What does that say about the prior state of tanks? I can say that a lot of people are whining because kills aren't "free" anymore. Now that SP flows like water almost, boosting an AV weapon should be easy to do. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1110	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:11:00 - [50] - Quote The problem with the hardener change is that hit+run has always been one of the best play styles for tanks. Now during the "Hit" portion of the hit and run, tanks can do what they want unless alpha'd by 2-3 dedicated AV users. The risk for tankers is near an all time low with this patch. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1170	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:23:00 - [51] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: The problem with the hardener change is that hit+run has always been one of the best play styles for tanks. Now during the "Hit" portion of the hit and run, tanks can do what they want unless alpha'd by 2-3 dedicated AV users. The risk for tankers is near an all time low with this patch. Then drive a tank and tell us how low-risk it is. Don't come crying back to the forums when you get blapped by another tank. Some dropsuit fittings can also deal enough damage in one hit, that activating the hardeners afterwards is pointless. If you decide to engage with hardeners active for "just in case" you will be at a disadvantage as soon as the shielding goes down. It's kind of like complaining that a scout with cloaking got behind you then Knova Knifed you to death, then claiming that the scout had no risk because of the dampening setup, while the scout on the other hand, is realizing that only certain places are viable for ambush, and they have to be wary of any eagle-eye assaults that can spot their cloaking at 150m out, due to the lack of health for dampening. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
LudiKure ninda Dead Man's Game RUST415 256	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:31:00 - [52] - Quote Your AV Infantry tears are delicius,.. Please moarrr!! ( -í° -£-û -í°) `Send your isk here! Fully maxed tank pilot.`
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 518	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:38:00 - [53] - Quote Drogan Reeth wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Lying. Your HP does drop but a repper will bring it back up so while it takes no damage it is repping. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 The point is 3 ppl shooting at the tank became worthless. Then the tank ran to the red line and the AV ppl sat around with fingers up thier bum, again worthless. Until the tank returned, but his hardners where back up now, again the 3 ppl shot hopelessly till they ran out of ammo. That's stupid game play. you could always follow it to the red;line and keep him in there or forcve him to recall., me and my buddie Hera lastnight managed to keep a railtank in his redline using plc/swarm combo on gal/min assaults.....apparently this gunnlogi pilot liked using a 120mm complex on his logi...and seemed to hsave convient fuel injectors. either way he was stuck in the redline till 2 of his buddies came. AV vs vehicles is fine as is..............until some ** ass heavy decides to bring out either a aldins or gaustans forge............NOW those are really bullshit av weapons. Elite Gallenten Soldier**
LudiKure ninda Dead Man's Game RUST415 256	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:49:00 - [54] - Quote Only AV weapon Im really scared when driving my tank is a forge gun. Not even minmadndo can take me out in 3 volley...but after those 3 volleys,if I dont run,well im dead. ( -í° -£-û -í°) `Send your isk here! Fully maxed tank pilot.`
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4370	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:04:00 - [55] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: AV can already take out a tank in a single clip. Only against bad tankers but I didn't say it couldn't, my comment was about your asinine belief that it should take more than one clip. Any tank generally can be taken out in 1 clip. If your hardeners are off you are screwed end of, i would like to say using cover helps but it doesn't when 90% of AV is swarms and they still follow around corners. AV has all the advantages. CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 357	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:36:00 - [56] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. So its safe to say that the whole entirety of the tankers in the game are now hit and run sissies? Yup best to hit then make em cut Thier hardener on follow em around a bit (i use lavs)wait for the opportune moment to strike no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Mikhail Windgates 7th air cav 3	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:39:00 - [57] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: robin williams' ghost wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. So its safe to say that the whole entirety of the tankers in the game are now hit and run sissies? Yup, we might as well call them scouts now Careful... Someone might remember the Black ops hav and the next thing you know we'll have cloaked tanks. they should implement voice audio effects on tanks like this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9IZVWGD6Xk. activating "iron curtain" err double hardener module.... and for min tanks "high speed low drag" err speed module (if we're going to have one)
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1950	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:42:00 - [58] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: A double-hardened armor tank is all but invincible while the hardeners are active; once down, however, it's going to be paper-thin. This is actually what Rattati was proposing way back with the wave of opportunity--a tank should briefly be able to come in and dominate things before having to withdraw to safety. Double hardened Armor tanks can have their hardeners on almost all the time except for like 10-15 seconds. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Nirwanda Vaughns 1560	Posted - 2015.03.21 14:01:00 - [59] - Quote Ambush is such a pleasant place now Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4468	Posted - 2015.03.21 15:49:00 - [60] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Thumb Green wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So he pops out with the hardeners back on, that is smart piloting, do you really expect pilots to dual AV which can pop a basic HAV with no hardener on in about a clip? Why is it vehicle players think AV should take more than one clip kill something but are fine with the fact that everything else can kill 2 or 3 of somethings in a clip? Why is it that AV are the only weapons you expect to take more than one clip to do it's job? Just because you're in a tank doesn't mean you're invincible to infantry, in fact infantry is the greatest threat to tanks. Why? Because they can pop out from anywhere and 1-2 shot your ass and there's not a damn thing you can do about it if you don't have your own infantry support. He isn't disputing that though, he is saying that naturally he's only going to engage with hardeners on, and that no one sane would do it with them off because AVers will pop you. He wasn't disputing how many "clips or shots" it shoudl take to kill an HAV with hardeners off, he was acknowledging that they ARE a threat. It seems you're bringing in baggage from other "Us VS Them" threads into here, cut that crap out. No he's saying AV shouldn't be able to take out a tank in a single clip and has always said that. please, make your next purchase Reading Comprehension Operation I. What he SAID was 'do you really expect pilots to dual[sic] AV which can pop HAV with no hardener in just a clip? Which means simply that 'AV can take HAVs out in a single clip, and that since you can prevent that eventuality, only a moron engages when that's a possibility.' Please, never make me defend Taka again. Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.



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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.