DUST Search - Logi Buff proposal

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Juno Tristan wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Juno Tristan wrote:

Without the penalty you could get the same ehp as an assault

I'm not saying they'd be better than assaults, but due to bandwidth (and lackluster cal/gal assault bonuses) I'd pick a slayer logi over an assault

Example

Gallente Assault
155 Base Shield HP
275 Base Armor HP
430 Base Total HP

Gallente Logistics
90 Base Shield HP
180 Base Armor HP
270 Base total HP

That's currently a 160 HP difference, a ratio of 1.59

If you have the Logistics 100 more base HP, it would still have 60 less HP, a ratio of 1.16.

They have identical slot layouts at the proto level. How exactly is that the same amount of HP?

I'll work out the exact figures later but I'm fairly certain logis have more cpu/pg and I know I can't fit all proto plates on my amarr assault

Easily countered by increasing the bonus for equipment reduction and reducing the base PG/CPU of the suit itself. What you end up with is a lower resource pool but it is effectively higher when using equipment. This means that even if you don't fit the equipment, it wont free up enough resources to surpass the Assault, however because fitting the equipment is cheaper, it allows the effective resource pool to be higher but only when using equipment.

Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

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el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 938	Posted - 2015.03.20 01:32:00 - [31] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Without the penalty you could get the same ehp as an assault I'm not saying they'd be better than assaults, but due to bandwidth (and lackluster cal/gal assault bonuses) I'd pick a slayer logi over an assault Example Gallente Assault 155 Base Shield HP 275 Base Armor HP 430 Base Total HP Gallente Logistics 90 Base Shield HP 180 Base Armor HP 270 Base total HP That's currently a 160 HP difference, a ratio of 1.59 If you have the Logistics 100 more base HP, it would still have 60 less HP, a ratio of 1.16. They have identical slot layouts at the proto level. How exactly is that the same amount of HP? I'll work out the exact figures later but I'm fairly certain logis have more cpu/pg and I know I can't fit all proto plates on my amarr assault Easily countered by increasing the bonus for equipment reduction and reducing the base PG/CPU of the suit itself. What you end up with is a lower resource pool but it is effectively higher when using equipment. This means that even if you don't fit the equipment, it wont free up enough resources to surpass the Assault, however because fitting the equipment is cheaper, it allows the effective resource pool to be higher but only when using equipment. Seems legit. Just need to be careful not to create a nerf or a "wash" between the bonusing and the reduction. The idea looks right tho. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5512	Posted - 2015.03.20 01:37:00 - [32] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Seems legit. Just need to be careful not to create a nerf or a "wash" between the bonusing and the reduction. The idea looks right tho. Yeah that's not really a balancing job I want to deal with personally but it should work. I mean it's the exact same principle as the Scouts with the cloaks, large reduction to the cloak to allow the scout to easily fit it without giving them excessive base fitting. Now obviously in the case of a logi vs assault, its fitting 4 times the equipment rather than fitting a super resource-intensive single equipment, but the principle is the same. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Mister Goo Random Gunz 185	Posted - 2015.03.20 01:43:00 - [33] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Without the penalty you could get the same ehp as an assault I'm not saying they'd be better than assaults, but due to bandwidth (and lackluster cal/gal assault bonuses) I'd pick a slayer logi over an assault Can you please explain to me what a slayer logi is? and How you build one now? The Assault suit is much better at playing the slayer role than a Logi ever could be. Two of the biggest advantages are the starting EHP and the side arm. Fear of the Slayer Logi is grossly unnecessary now, and only the tourist logi's even bring them up any more. The only Slayer Logi ever, was the Cal Logi because of its 5 High slots and self reps, they were fixed a long time ago. the other suits were not even close to being slayer anything. Slayer Logi's are one thing that CCP took out the first time and have not let back in and the small increases that Pokey has suggested will not throw the balance off. Have you read Cross's proposals?(Page 1) Have you read RedBleach's proposals? (Page 70 I think) If not take a minute and look at them, they are both solid in depth proposals. I don't agree with everything that el Operator says but he has a point about showing that Logi's in general agree on what is wrong with the class. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7991	Posted - 2015.03.20 01:45:00 - [34] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Hey, real quick, what is the target illumination time and the cooldown time for that "21 db 200m permascanner"? Creodron Flux 0 seconds - Scanner 1 fires 12 seconds- Scanner 2 fires 24 seconds- Scanner 3 fires 30 seconds- Scanner 1 ready 36 seconds- Scanner 1 fires 2 seconds- Scanner 2 ready DS3 - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 90-¦ / 21dB KB/M - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 360-¦ / 21dB * results shared team-wide Too much risk! Let's buff that Logi! Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7991	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:00:00 - [35] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: This is why I didn't post in the cpm thread, both of you **** off Your idea's borderline reasonable; it'd be out-of-place in the CPM thread. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
XxVEXESxX 68	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:02:00 - [36] - Quote Give logis a non stackable "presence bonus" similar to an aura effect for having a support on the field. link the amount of bonus to drop suit levels. Only one race specific bonus that is granted to only the type of race the logi is. (similar to FW loyalty) All bonuses are applied passive in effect but still providing a marginal edge. we can also link the bonus to scan range so range mods have a new added effect. Give the logi role its force multiplier it deserves. Its bad enough logis have to contend with CCP buffing damage back to pre-rifle nerf values without increasing active support equipment (eg. reptool). Right now logi support is a full time job that can get hard extremely fast under hard combat conditions. It can even be said that running dps right now is still more effective in "blob sqds" since passive repairs have been given out like candy. Hopefully this will give effective diversity to an under-performing combat/support role without making it the run all be all suit. O7 PSN: XxVEXESxX MK.0 A/C/L "EVE Quality Dust"
Mister Goo Random Gunz 185	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:12:00 - [37] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Hey, real quick, what is the target illumination time and the cooldown time for that "21 db 200m permascanner"? Creodron Flux 0 seconds - Scanner 1 fires 12 seconds- Scanner 2 fires 24 seconds- Scanner 3 fires 30 seconds- Scanner 1 ready 36 seconds- Scanner 1 fires 42 seconds- Scanner 2 ready DS3 - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 90-¦ / 21dB KB/M - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 360-¦ / 21dB * results shared team-wide Now let's buff it! Because balance! I will give you the numbers are correct, and it is entirely possible to do this with the Gal Logi Suit. In reality though how many logi's are carrying 3 Creodron Flux Scanners, and one other piece of equipment? I know that your going to say Nyan San uses the Gal logi for this reason, so maybe 5% use this as a permascan wall hack. Is it possible for a scout to use damps to get below the scans, Yes it is. A GK0 with 3 complex mods is way below you 21db scans and its permanent. You have to use damps instead of armor mods the same as the Gal logi has to give up his equipment slots for the perma scan. There are some that suggest the logi need better Ewar but the community at large, I would have to disagree with you. I am part of the community and I am happy with where my Ewar is, and I don't think that Ewar is where the Logi needs more help. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7991	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:18:00 - [38] - Quote Doesn't make one 'bit of difference whether or not a Scout can dampen under overpowered scans. Scouts could dampen under pre-Charlie CA Scout scans. Scouts could dampen under post-Charlie CA and AM Scout scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mister Goo Random Gunz 186	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:38:00 - [39] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Doesn't make one 'bit of difference whether or not a Scout can dampen under overpowered scans. Scouts could dampen under pre-Charlie CA Scout scans. Scouts could dampen under post-Charlie CA and AM Scout scans. Then whats the point of all the Gal logi QQ? A level 5 medium suit with 3 complex damps is Assault 45db Logi 40.5db The heavy suits would be 54db using a GK0 for #'s So most scanners will pick them up even ones not from a Gal Logi. The only suits it effects is the Scout Class and they can get below it using damps, same as always. This is why I see it as you QQing about your scout suit. If it is not then what else could it possibly be? I am trying not to sound argumentative here. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7991	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:45:00 - [40] - Quote The point is that buffing whatever Nyain's spamming can't be a good idea. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Mister Goo Random Gunz 186	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:52:00 - [41] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The point is that buffing whatever Nyain's spamming can't be a good idea. I will give you that much There is also no need to nerf it because it doesn't effectively change the balance of play for any class. It just forces the scout to give up tank for a lower profile. Assassin vs speedy assault Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Mister Goo Random Gunz 186	Posted - 2015.03.20 02:54:00 - [42] - Quote XxVEXESxX wrote: Give logis a non stackable "presence bonus" similar to an aura effect for having a support on the field. link the amount of bonus to drop suit levels. Only one race specific bonus that is granted to only the type of race the logi is. (similar to FW loyalty) All bonuses are applied passive in effect but still providing a marginal edge. we can also link the bonus to scan range so range mods have a new added effect. Give the logi role its force multiplier it deserves. Its bad enough logis have to contend with CCP buffing damage back to pre-rifle nerf values without increasing active support equipment (eg. reptool). Right now logi support is a full time job that can get hard extremely fast under hard combat conditions. It can even be said that running dps right now is still more effective in "blob sqds" since passive repairs have been given out like candy. Hopefully this will give effective diversity to an under-performing combat/support role without making it the run all be all suit. O7 Yes and change our title from Logi to Paladin Please Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7991	Posted - 2015.03.20 03:01:00 - [43] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The point is that buffing whatever Nyain's spamming can't be a good idea. I will give you that much There is also no need to nerf it because it doesn't effectively change the balance of play for any class. It just forces the scout to give up tank for a lower profile. Assassin vs speedy assault An Assault can dampen under 28dB scans without gimping his fit; the same can't be said for 21dB. Further, the 21dB baseline reinforces lopsided scout usage rates in PC; scans are why the GA Scout is disproportionately popular (and CA Scout close behind). Lastly, always-on scanning was never pitched to Rattati and was never agreed to; we nerfed passives expressly because they were always-on, and competitive permascan should be fixed if for no other reason than this precedent. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
John Demonsbane Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 5136	Posted - 2015.03.20 05:08:00 - [44] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Without the penalty you could get the same ehp as an assault I'm not saying they'd be better than assaults, but due to bandwidth (and lackluster cal/gal assault bonuses) I'd pick a slayer logi over an assault Example Gallente Assault 155 Base Shield HP 275 Base Armor HP 430 Base Total HP Gallente Logistics 90 Base Shield HP 180 Base Armor HP 270 Base total HP That's currently a 160 HP difference, a ratio of 1.59 If you have the Logistics 100 more base HP, it would still have 60 less HP, a ratio of 1.16. They have identical slot layouts at the proto level. How exactly is that the same amount of HP? I'll work out the exact figures later but I'm fairly certain logis have more cpu/pg and I know I can't fit all proto plates on my amarr assault Easily countered by increasing the bonus for equipment reduction and reducing the base PG/CPU of the suit itself. What you end up with is a lower resource pool but it is effectively higher when using equipment. This means that even if you don't fit the equipment, it wont free up enough resources to surpass the Assault, however because fitting the equipment is cheaper, it allows the effective resource pool to be higher but only when using equipment. Huh... That sounds a lot like something I suggested, oh, a year ago. So sad this is still a thing. Oh, and look.. It's a slayer logi? (Where?) see.. Over there.. If you squint real hard you can see it right there... in 2013. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 284	Posted - 2015.03.20 06:10:00 - [45] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Glitch116 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I don't see why people are so terrified of giving Logis more HP without some goofy penalty. Even if you have Logistics 100 more base HP, it would still have less HP than assaults. Why is that a problem? the thing is hit points are not the logis main problem and just a hit point buff is not going to change anything could logis stand to have more EHP? yes should this be the main concern at this point? no Im not saying it's the only thing that should happen, but people seem to have this odd aversion to giving them more survivability. The penalty is to maintain total max ehp to the current setup otherwise you run the risk of slayer logis The higher ehp base means logis are free to run other mods, meaning they can focus on ewar/hacking/speed to satisfy individual preference How do you run risk of a slayer Logi if its still slower and has less HP than an Assault? Sorry that's my fault, too many melee kills with my rep tool...and my nanohive club is badass too. *I am LOGI!!*
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5515	Posted - 2015.03.20 07:14:00 - [46] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Huh... That sounds a lot like something I suggested, oh, a year ago. So sad this is still a thing. Oh, and look.. It's a slayer logi? (Where?) see.. Over there.. If you squint real hard you can see it right there... in 2013. I hear ya brother. I was always very weary of the +25% reduction when it came out, always expected something more along the lines of 50%-75% DJINN Jecture wrote: Sorry that's my fault, too many melee kills with my rep tool...and my nanohive club is badass too. You should know that as a Logi you carry that gun just for show right? You're not actually supposed to kill anyone with it! Geeze, assault wannabe. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 285	Posted - 2015.03.20 12:59:00 - [47] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Huh... That sounds a lot like something I suggested, oh, a year ago. So sad this is still a thing. Oh, and look.. It's a slayer logi? (Where?) see.. Over there.. If you squint real hard you can see it right there... in 2013. I hear ya brother. I was always very weary of the +25% reduction when it came out, always expected something more along the lines of 50%-75% DJINN Jecture wrote: Sorry that's my fault, too many melee kills with my rep tool...and my nanohive club is badass too. You should know that as a Logi you carry that gun just for show right? You're not actually supposed to kill anyone with it! Geeze, assault wannabe. No you don't understand I was being serious...gotta finish the zombies off somehow though. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 20:43:00 - [48] - Quote Stay focused, ScrubShineBear! el OPERATOR wrote: And whats the lowest possible profile of the suit using it (a fully skilled, full proto GalLogi)? We're just getting your ducks together still, then we'll line them up etc. And how long is the actual scanning period ? Not the target illumination time, not the cooldown, the snapshot period. The actual active scan duration. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8045	Posted - 2015.03.20 20:55:00 - [49] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Stay focused, ScrubShineBear! el OPERATOR wrote: And whats the lowest possible profile of the suit using it (a fully skilled, full proto GalLogi)? We're just getting your ducks together still, then we'll line them up etc. And how long is the actual scanning period ? Not the target illumination time, not the cooldown, the snapshot period. The actual active scan duration. Protofits isn't difficult to master. Just point and click; it does all the math for you. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:02:00 - [50] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Creodron Flux 0 seconds - Scanner 1 fires 12 seconds- Scanner 2 fires 24 seconds- Scanner 3 fires 30 seconds- Scanner 1 ready 36 seconds- Scanner 1 fires 42 seconds- Scanner 2 ready Look Ma! EQ cycling! Just like weapon cycling from a primary to a sidearm! So OP!! Adipem Nothi wrote: DS3 - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 90-¦ / 21dB Awesome! So not actually 360-¦!! And 360-¦ not actually possible!! Good to know, glad that you were able to prove how garbage your 360-¦ claim is!! We'll get to "perma" as we complete the actual data. Adipem Nothi wrote: KB/M - 3 scanners needed to permascan 200m / 360-¦ / 21dB Awesome!! So the kb/m is capable of producing movement that is 400% what the ds3 does!! I bet you Rattati would love to see a video demo of this behaviour, especially right now considering the amount of resources and hair-pulling he's been going through trying to address the endless complaints regarding hit-detection and lag!! Tell you what, if we have a movement disparity of 400% between the ds3 and whatever it is about kb/m (macro keys? high dpi mouse?) theres obviously something questionable there, unfortunately for your arguement it isn't the GalLogi, its bonus or the Active Scanner. Unfortunate for your conclusion also is that, from what we've seen historically, balancing isn't done based on outlier hardware use performance. Were that the case, RoF on all burst weapons would be 1 burst/second to compensate for turbo controllers. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:04:00 - [51] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Stay focused, ScrubShineBear! el OPERATOR wrote: And whats the lowest possible profile of the suit using it (a fully skilled, full proto GalLogi)? We're just getting your ducks together still, then we'll line them up etc. And how long is the actual scanning period ? Not the target illumination time, not the cooldown, the snapshot period. The actual active scan duration. Protofits isn't difficult to master. Just point and click; it does all the math for you. You're the cornholio that keeps on about this, rabble-rousing and disparaging the community at large any opportunity you get, present your "evidence". Prove your hypothesis. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8046	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:12:00 - [52] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Creodron Flux 0 seconds - Scanner 1 fires 12 seconds- Scanner 2 fires 24 seconds- Scanner 3 fires 30 seconds- Scanner 1 ready 36 seconds- Scanner 1 fires 42 seconds- Scanner 2 ready Look Ma! Permascan shared teamwide from 200m out. If this is balanced, then the other Logis got a raw deal. Go ahead and buff them. Just not this one. This one's reward is already outweighing its risk. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:26:00 - [53] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And how long is the actual scanning period ? Not the target illumination time, not the cooldown, the snapshot period. The actual active scan duration. Whoa there, cowboy! First we complete the data then we start drawing conclusions. You know, Order of Operations? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:29:00 - [54] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Creodron Flux 0 seconds - Scanner 1 fires 12 seconds- Scanner 2 fires 24 seconds- Scanner 3 fires 30 seconds- Scanner 1 ready 36 seconds- Scanner 1 fires 42 seconds- Scanner 2 ready Look Ma! Permascan shared teamwide from 200m out. If this is balanced, then the other Logis got a raw deal. Go ahead and buff them. Just not this one. This one's reward is already outweighing its risk. Oh ***! My bad! You've been harping this nonsense this whole time on behalf of the Logistics Community*!!! Well, that changes everything!! Damn! And the profile of that Gal is....? And the actual scanner snapshot period is....? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 21:32:00 - [55] - Quote I absolutely <3 your non-addressing of the kb/m disparity, btw. Sometimes saying less really does just say so much more. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.


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