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Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha?

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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2244	Posted - 2015.02.25 05:47:00 - [1] - Quote These weapons are in such a silly and unhealthy place right now. They're only 'good' on high speed, low profile scouts that make up for the disadvantage of needing to touch someone with the weapon in order to kill them... And let's not even get started on the terrible spot the breach is in. Std shotgun = 10 pellets * 40 dmg, with a .7s refire rate = 1200 dmg alpha at 1.5 seconds. Their current stats have them doing 571.4 dps at basic. What if we extended a shotguns optimal range out to ~20m and its effective to around 27m, dropped its damage to 32 * 10 pellets and kept its RoF & refire the same, this would make it potentially viable on assaults & commandos and considerably less instagibby on scouts, it would be doing 457.2 dps with these numbers. If it turns out to be overpowered on assaults/commandos we could potentially tweak the dmg a little lower In short I'm a little miffed that the last game I played with a shotgun that actually felt like a shotgun was doom2 Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:09:00 - [2] - Quote 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. I do think the shotgun could use a slight increase to range, along with a damage decrease, but only accompanying an increase to TTK in general. With the current TTK, there just isn't any room to adjust the SG. Any less damage and the shotgunner gets torn up. Any more and you get even more ridiculous OHKs. ...and yes, the Breach Shotgun is complete crap, and it bothers me to no end.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2245	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:15:00 - [3] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. Why? Based on what reasoning? Are you aware of how shotguns work in real life where they shot quite well up to and beyond 30m. Thanks for the correction on the pellets though. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 4705	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:20:00 - [4] - Quote This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:33:00 - [5] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. Why? Based on what reasoning? Are you aware of how shotguns work in real life where they shot quite well up to and beyond 30m. Thanks for the correction on the pellets though. I don't really care how real shotguns work, it isn't particularly relevant here. For my personal view of how shotguns should work, see this. A topic I posted, unfortunately it was just before the beginning of the login issues and was mostly ignored. Shotguns have always been the primary CQC weapon of Dust. Extending the range out beyond 20m is starting to blend in with the AR's optimal. The AR is meant to be a high DPS CQC rifle that can remain effective at longer ranges. The shotgun is meant to be extremely effective in extremely close quarters (although a bit unwieldy in NK ranges), but mostly ineffective at anything longer. The problem with shotguns currently isn't their role itself, its that the high-alpha CQC role doesn't balance well with our currently low TTK. It creates far too many OHK situations, but without that, shotgunners die far too quickly trying to close distance.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2246	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:35:00 - [6] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1846	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:36:00 - [7] - Quote Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha? That's like asking why assault rifles shoot bullets. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9675	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:42:00 - [8] - Quote I'd like it if they were able to not be completely useless past 5 meters but I don't want them to be anywhere near effective. past that the dispersion should get a lot worse and less and less shots hit you while the projectiles spread with range. At 7 meters I'd like only 60% (about 7 pellets) of the projectiles hitting you. At 10 meters I'd like only 50% (6 pellets) of the Projectiles hitting you. At 13 meters I'd like only 30% (about 4 pellets) hitting you, and now it's no longer doing optimal 15 meters only doing 20% (about 2 pellets) and less optimal any further than that and good luck hitting a target you intend on hitting but less and less damage from falloff on top of that. Essentially doing nothing. MINA Longstrike wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. I'm very much for this too. While they can be used on Gallente Assaults it's not exactly a fit I would bring to a PC match. A Minmatar Assault could but then again, what doesn't a Minmatar assault do? I don't want the shotgun to be OP but I'd wish it wasn't so exclusive to one suit. It isn't a cloak, it isn't knives, it's not a heavy weapon it's a light weapon. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2250	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:45:00 - [9] - Quote ^part of it would be that dispersion/spread from gal-assault would be applicable. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:48:00 - [10] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. Probably headshots, 1400 damage is entirely possible with 2 full hits and 20/24 pellets as a headshot. Also, shotguns are definitely viable on Assaults, and not just the Minmatar. The Gal assault can use the SG very effectively

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9675	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:51:00 - [11] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^part of it would be that dispersion/spread from gal-assault would be applicable. Hahaha and finally I'd be able to properly appreciate that bonus. It is a decent bonus but if you have sharpshooter it kinda devoids it. If you don't want to skill into sharpshooter on your AR then the Gallente bonus will save you some SP. Outside of that, it's barely noticeable past Sharpshooter level 2 on a Maxed Gallente Assault with TAR. Imagine how unseen it is with the other ARs that are already damn near laser accurate. and too much accuracy at the hipfire can be a bad thing for those people that like to say more hip fire accuracy is better. Look at the heavy machine gun issue before it became what it is now, it was too damn accurate. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2251	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:54:00 - [12] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. Probably headshots, 1400 damage is entirely possible with 2 full hits and 20/24 pellets as a headshot. Also, shotguns are definitely viable on Assaults, and not just the Minmatar. The Gal assault can use the SG very effectively Hahaha no, I've spent several hours on a gal assault 5 trying to get it to work. If it could shoot more than 5 meters maybe, the gun itself has lot of problems that are only propped up by low profile high speed suits. I want a shotgunner to ruin me at 20m with 3 accurate shots when were both assaults, that's barely the distance across most 'small' rooms in dust. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 146	Posted - 2015.02.25 06:58:00 - [13] - Quote All I can say now is that the shotgun is not a great gun for assaulting things. You need speed to make it work, and stealth adds further synergistic boon. I like the idea of one that shoots every .5 seconds and does 250 (25*10) damage per shot. with a 15m-20m optimal, and a 25-28m effective range. Make it more like an AA-12. You might want to use it in a Research Lab situation (or the new caldari socket with the room that has one way out), but not on Manus Peaks as it lacks a longer range. As a Gallente commando, an AA-12 sounds appealing for offense and defense. For current shotguns, it is always better to be a speedy assault, or scout since you need to be so close to use them. Wouldn't it be more fun for everyone if it was mare attractive to more suits? Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:05:00 - [14] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Shutter Fly wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. Probably headshots, 1400 damage is entirely possible with 2 full hits and 20/24 pellets as a headshot. Also, shotguns are definitely viable on Assaults, and not just the Minmatar. The Gal assault can use the SG very effectively Hahaha no, I've spent several hours on a gal assault 5 alt trying to get it to work, no I didn't have kin cats 5 or profile dampening 5 or speed/damp fit as that would moot my point. If it could shoot more than 5 meters maybe, the gun itself has lot of problems that are only propped up by low profile high speed suits. I want a shotgunner to ruin me at 20m with 3 accurate shots when were both assaults, that's barely the distance across most 'small' rooms in dust. I also want to fix some of the 'scout standing right on a sentinels back and killing him in 1.5-2.2secs' I do think the shotgun currently kills far too fast. I'm not going to type my entire explanation out again, so follow the link in my post earlier in the thread. That is what I think the issue is, and quadrupling the range is not part of the solution. As for a SG GalAss, this seems very effective. I'm still working on getting up to lv5 Gal Assault, but my ADV variant of the fitting has proven to be extremely useful.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:24:00 - [15] - Quote ^your post about shotguns has no discussion of numbers, it just seemingly flatly states that shotguns need to take longer to kill. Part of increasing TTK and getting the weapon into a healthy place involves increased range. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9675	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:44:00 - [16] - Quote I can do that too. More range will be better because we think it will be better because reasons. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 514	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:48:00 - [17] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^your post about shotguns has no discussion of numbers, it just seemingly flatly states that shotguns need to take longer to kill. Part of increasing TTK and getting the weapon into a healthy place involves increased range. It's a theoretical suggestion, so of course there aren't exact numbers. Exact numbers are meaningless when the frame of reference is a single weapon being used on opponents of a wide range of potential HP values. In that context, discussion in terms of the number of shots needed to kill and percentage of headshots and partial hits is much more useful in reaching a useful result. In the end, my counterargument to you is simply that a large increase to range isn't the correct course of action. We don't need to completely overhaul the weapon's purpose. It's been balanced and effective in the past, and it never had a realistically effective range over 10-12m. Your solution is a complete overhaul of a single weapon that is ultimately a localized bandage fix for the much larger issue of TTK.
Billi Gene 540	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:52:00 - [18] - Quote as someone who runs it alot, increasing its effective range to 10m and reducing dispersion by about 20% would be nice.* it works well as a high alpha close range weapon, but its steep falloff and high dispersion make it useless otherwise. In many ways I am happy with where it is, because increasing its range would be a direct buff to scouts, reducing risk. If i want to run a longer range shotty... i tend to go with a ScR charge shot+4 shot burst. *numbers are arbitrary. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 1274	Posted - 2015.02.25 07:57:00 - [19] - Quote I saw a few assaults running shotties. It worked. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9675	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:04:00 - [20] - Quote Reign Omega wrote: I saw a few assaults running shotties. It worked. Pub matches. I can run a Gallente Commando Kin Catted like crazy with a melee mod and kill people. It worked, is it viable? Maybe for pubs, but certainly not all pubs and most definitely not PC or serious FW matches. I really get tired of the argument people use of seeing it in a pub match with pub trash and then saying "herp derp, look he can kill my idiot teammates by nova knifing them in a heavy suit! That most be a competitive playstyle* (not saying that heavies with novo knives should be viable by the way.) *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*

Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3382	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:05:00 - [21] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: In short I'm a little miffed that the last game I played with a shotgun that actually felt like a shotgun was doom2 Try Tom Clancy Ghost Recon: Phantoms, now those are shotguns. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Dengru Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 501	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:12:00 - [22] - Quote Shotguns were viable on assaults, moreso than scouts, since chromosome. And it continued on with logis.. changes with ttk a long with necessity of dampening changed that for many months but now it's about even. The speed, stamina recovery, dampening and tanking potential make min assault better than just certain gal scout fits. I agree with shuttle fly they are fine. The main issue with cloaks is that they negated all the hindrances one would have in navigating and getting to a target. If you extend the range it's just flirting with the chromosome sharpshooter shotguns which are unnecessary in current build. Isn't it good playing without seeing shotguns everywhere? It's heaven, don't change it (>^_^)><(^.^<)
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:31:00 - [23] - Quote Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 370	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:40:00 - [24] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: In short I'm a little miffed that the last game I played with a shotgun that actually felt like a shotgun was doom2 Try Tom Clancy Ghost Recon: Phantoms, now those are shotguns. He's dead.
Billi Gene 541	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:44:00 - [25] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:51:00 - [26] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol. You're missing the point, its about fostering a discussion a weapon that is currently in an unhealthy place - they are useful on exactly one type of suit where they are arguably 'overpowered' on anything else you are considerably better served to carry almost anything else. Lets not drag discussion of pistols or cloaks into this, this threads purpose is not complain beyond the statement that "the shotgun is broken in its current form". Even the plasma cannon has more applicable use as a 'specialist' weapon than the shotgun. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 370	Posted - 2015.02.25 08:58:00 - [27] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Billi Gene wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol. You're missing the point, its about fostering a discussion a weapon that is currently in an unhealthy place - they are useful on exactly one type of suit where they are arguably 'overpowered' on anything else you are considerably better served to carry almost anything else. Lets not drag discussion of pistols or cloaks into this, this threads purpose is not complain beyond the statement that "the shotgun is broken in its current form". Even the plasma cannon has more applicable use as a 'specialist' weapon than the shotgun. Increase hit detection across the board and we can talk about buffing the shotgun. Until speed tanking loses its place as only viable playstyle leave the shotgun out of the balance passes.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 149	Posted - 2015.02.25 09:01:00 - [28] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: All I can say now is that the shotgun is not a great gun for assaulting things. You need speed to make it work, and stealth adds further synergistic boon. I like the idea of one that shoots every .5 seconds and does 250 (25*10) damage per shot. with a 15m-20m optimal, and a 25-28m effective range. Make it more like an AA-12. You might want to use it in a Research Lab situation (or the new caldari socket with the room that has one way out), but not on Manus Peaks as it lacks a longer range. As a Gallente commando, an AA-12 sounds appealing for offense and defense. For current shotguns, it is always better to be a speedy assault, or scout since you need to be so close to use them. Wouldn't it be more fun for everyone if it was mare attractive to more suits? This thread seems to be getting a tad bit derailed. Let's try a thought experiment. IF a shotgun was like how I described here (perhaps with less spread also), would you want to use it? Would it be more/less attractive to scouts/logis/commandos/assaults? I thinks scouts might hate it as it doesn't instant;y blat people, but I can see assaults/commandos enjoying it as you don't need speed to make it work, and I could even see a logi use it. Maybe rework the breach shotgun to be more like the current model, but have the assault/standard shotgun be like described. Essentially, I'd like to see another close range weapon besides the HMG, that has appeal on non speed/stealth fits. Assaults/commandos that want to breach a room, or defend an objective. That and SG scouts would be less frustrating to newbies (I'm used to them now). Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2015.02.25 09:16:00 - [29] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Billi Gene wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol. You're missing the point, its about fostering a discussion a weapon that is currently in an unhealthy place - they are useful on exactly one type of suit where they are arguably 'overpowered' on anything else you are considerably better served to carry almost anything else. Lets not drag discussion of pistols or cloaks into this, this threads purpose is not complain beyond the statement that "the shotgun is broken in its current form". Even the plasma cannon has more applicable use as a 'specialist' weapon than the shotgun. So...how exactly does this lead to the solution of modifying the shotgun to be a completely different weapon? Why is it such a huge problem that the SG isn't as useful on Assaults as it is on Scouts, anyway? I've yet to see any reasoning from you explaining this. You seem to be fabricating this "issue" as a means of artificially inflating the viability of your otherwise unnecessary "fix". The shotgun is a very specifically tailored weapon, made to be very effective in its designated area. why is that such a huge issue in your point of view?
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 149	Posted - 2015.02.25 09:31:00 - [30] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Billi Gene wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m. Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol. You're missing the point, its about fostering a discussion a weapon that is currently in an unhealthy place - they are useful on exactly one type of suit where they are arguably 'overpowered' on anything else you are considerably better served to carry almost anything else. Lets not drag discussion of pistols or cloaks into this, this threads purpose is not complain beyond the statement that "the shotgun is broken in its current form". Even the plasma cannon has more applicable use as a 'specialist' weapon than the shotgun. So...how exactly does this lead to the solution of modifying the shotgun to be a completely different weapon? Why is it such a huge problem that the SG isn't as useful on Assaults as it is on Scouts, anyway? I've yet to see any reasoning from you explaining this. You seem to be fabricating this "issue" as a means of artificially inflating the viability of your otherwise unnecessary "fix". The shotgun is a very specifically tailored weapon, made to be very effective in its designated area. why is that such a huge issue in your point of view? I like the idea of a weapon being appealing to a wide variety of different suits. The fact that it essentially only appeals to just the Scout, is kinda sad. The fact that a Gallente commando would prefer not to carry one of its own racial weapons because it is so terribly suited to do so seems kind of sad. Or that a Logi in the middle of a close quarters engagement wouldn't want one because they can't get within 10m of someone due to their lack of mobility. I don't care which suit is the best with it, I'm just disappointed to only have one class want to use a primary weapon. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 09:47:00 - [31] - Quote Attempting to discredit my point by claiming that I've fabricated the issue is pretty low when as I understand you shutter, you also want the shotgun to be 'fixed', but apparently that's supposed to happen with no changes made to anything other than damage? Shotguns as a weapon have been in an uncomfortable spot for a long time, for the what 6 months when scouts ruled the game the shotgun was their weapon of choice because of how insanely it benefits from having the 'first mover' advantage. In pc there is still a large contingent of shotgun use going on, as in pubs, but this weapon is limited to a single suit - the scout, a shotgun on anything else is incredibly sub par. In short the shotgun is incredibly over specialized. In order to perform any fix that isn't a straight nerf (ie make a weapon that's only useable on one suit unusable on any suit) some things need to seriously change... Like the shotgun being made into a gun that not only would scouts want, but commandos and assaults too. How is that done? By decreasing the weapons reliance on the 'first mover' advantage of stealth / speed aka, the weapon needs more range. It's a relatively simple sequence of steps to get to the conclusion I did. Now the real question is, ignoring everything else if there was a weapon like this in dust, that did that level of dps over that range, would you want to use it? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:15:00 - [32] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Attempting to discredit my point by claiming that I've fabricated the issue is pretty low when as I understand you shutter, I may have misconstrued my intent with that post, and I apologize. I didn't mean to suggest that you intentionally created an issue that wasn't there, my wording was poorly chosen to that point. However, I was pointing out that you may be seeing a problem that isn't, at its core, the real problem. Quote: you also want the shotgun to be 'fixed', but apparently that's supposed to happen with no changes made to anything other than damage? In comparison to your suggestion, yes, that is what I'm saying. I'm not completely against any change to the SGs range, just one that changes the base mechanics of the weapon. I'm also not saying changing the SG's damage will fix the issue, I'm suggesting the overall TTK is the problem. So, yes, I just think the damage is the problem, but not just the shotgun. Quote: Shotguns as a weapon have been in an uncomfortable spot for a long time, for the what 6 months when scouts ruled the game the shotgun was their weapon of choice because of how insanely it benefits from having the 'first mover' advantage. In pc there is still a large contingent of shotgun use going on, as in pubs, but this weapon is limited to a single suit - the scout, a shotgun on anything else is incredibly sub par. In short the shotgun is incredibly over specialized. In order to perform any fix that isn't a straight nerf (ie make a weapon that's only useable on one suit unusable on any suit) some things need to seriously change... Like the shotgun being made into a gun that not only would scouts want, but commandos and assaults too. How is that done? By decreasing the weapons reliance on the 'first mover' advantage of stealth / speed aka, the weapon needs more range. It's a relatively simple sequence of steps to get to the conclusion I did. Now the real question is, ignoring everything else if there was a weapon like this in dust, that did that level of dps over that range, would you want to use it? If yes then those are probably the steps that should be made - get the weapon into a good place where multiple suits will want it rather than having people go 'dear god why would you fit that'. What I see the issue as is the overall TTK, which plagues every aspect of Dust currently. The reason Scouts are most effective with the shotgun is that they are good at not getting hit, which I think we both agree on. To fix this, we don't have to make it easier to use the shotgun without getting hit, we have to address the overall issue of why getting hit is such a huge problem. HMGs instantly destroy everything within 15m, the ACR shreds anything within 30m, and the ARR does the same between 10 and 50m. Assaults are underrepresented as it is, and that's because its just all-around better to avoid getting hit, rather than tanking the damage you do take. That issue is just compounded by CQC weapons. If the overly centralizing TTK is taken care of, you'll see those problems disappear. Heavies will have more counters, Scouts will run weapons other than SGs and ACRs, and Assaults will be useable in a variety of situations (including shotgun roles). Why? The Assault suits can combine the abilities to take a hit and rep it off better than a Scout, Logi, Heavy, or Commando. Who cares if you take hits getting within 10m if you can still get the kills, then regen the lost HP? Assaults don't get to utilize that advantage right now, because taking damage without concurrently dealing it is more than likely to lead directly to death. If Scouts aren't forced to completely avoid damage, they will be open to more varied roles. They won't be able to overtake assaults as easily with pure preemption, so they will have to employ misdirection and guerrilla tactics. In return, they will be able to take some damage, in order to draw fire, rather than being insta-kill ninjas. Heavies won't be able to instantly shred everything in their sights, but they will have more ability to stand against incoming fire and continue dealing damage. They might get overrun by a shotgunner, but they will get to retaliate, and the shotgunner will still have a chance to retain the upper hand. Commandos can dish out some heavy DPS, but they don't have much HP. Being able to survive a bit longer would give them a much better chance of making their damage output relevant. Faster reload isn't very useful if your opponents can kill you in less than 1/2 a mag. All of these things were once in Dust (except the commando thing, Commandos weren't around yet), and it was probably the most balanced point in its history, unfortunately they slowly morphed into what we have today due to small, reactive bandages. Your solution will work, but it isn't one that gets to the real root of the problem. It is just another bandage.
4lbert Wesker King and Queens 127	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:18:00 - [33] - Quote Does normal and breach variant of shotguns have same range? Public skirmish = camping games
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:23:00 - [34] - Quote 4lbert Wesker wrote: Does normal and breach variant of shotguns have same range? For the most part, yes. The Breach has slightly more range, but it has so many other issues that it isn't really noticeable.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7666	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:39:00 - [35] - Quote Shotguns are fine. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
diablo gamekeeper T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:39:00 - [36] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: These weapons are in such a silly and unhealthy place right now. They're only 'good' on high speed, low profile scouts that make up for the disadvantage of needing to touch someone with the weapon in order to kill them... And let's not even get started on the terrible spot the breach is in. Std shotgun = 12 pellets * 40 dmg, with a .7s refire rate = 1440 dmg alpha at 1.5 seconds. Their current stats have them doing 685.68 dps at basic. (Edit to fix numbers for 12 pellets). What if we extended a shotguns optimal range out to ~20m and its effective to around 27m, dropped its damage to 32 * 10 pellets and kept its RoF & refire the same, this would make it potentially viable on assaults & commandos and considerably less instagibby on scouts, it would be doing 457.2 dps with these numbers. If it turns out to be overpowered on assaults/commandos we could potentially tweak the dmg a little lower In short I'm a little miffed that the last game I played with a shotgun that actually felt like a shotgun was doom2 Lololololololololololololololol gtfoh
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 504	Posted - 2015.02.25 11:52:00 - [37] - Quote i have no problem what so ever using a shotgun on a gall assault with 3 damps/cloak.....I don't see a problem at all with the shotgun. depending on the situation your in/how its used can be bought into question but overall its a relatively balanced weapon. sacrifces range for pure CQC damage/high alpha fair enough. honestly the shotgun dosnt need to be touched. its a perfectly balanced/fine weapon. when used on a suit with the right combination of modules and play style helps to mitigate the fact it has no range. also. just for fun gallente assault gk.o 3X complex profile damps 2X complex kinkats 2X complex presion enhancments 1x complex lightn damage mod STD cloak creodron shotgun toxin SMG some type of grenade. have fun. also. has profile of 18. only 2 more than my gk.o scout running lvl 5 and 2 complex damps. I see no problem with the shotgun being on medium frames... *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Varoth Drac State of Purgatory General Tso's Alliance 595	Posted - 2015.02.25 13:03:00 - [38] - Quote I've advocated this before. Another advantage, beyond making shotguns more viable on a range of suits, is that it would consolidate nova knives as the most effective assassin weapon. Often I worry that my Min scout would be better off ditching the knives in favour of a shotgun. If I sneak up right behind somebody I often feel it would be much easier to just shotgun them in the back rather than bother with nova knives. This just isn't right on a suit with a 25% knife damage bonus.
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 328	Posted - 2015.02.25 13:07:00 - [39] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. That's easy to do Heim I'll tell you a secret in game Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 328	Posted - 2015.02.25 13:09:00 - [40] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: i have no problem what so ever using a shotgun on a gall assault with 3 damps/cloak.....I don't see a problem at all with the shotgun. depending on the situation your in/how its used can be bought into question but overall its a relatively balanced weapon. sacrifces range for pure CQC damage/high alpha fair enough. honestly the shotgun dosnt need to be touched. its a perfectly balanced/fine weapon. when used on a suit with the right combination of modules and play style helps to mitigate the fact it has no range. also. just for fun gallente assault gk.o 3X complex profile damps 2X complex kinkats 2X complex presion enhancments 1x complex lightn damage mod STD cloak creodron shotgun toxin SMG some type of grenade. have fun. also. has profile of 18. only 2 more than my gk.o scout running lvl 5 and 2 complex damps. I see no problem with the shotgun being on medium frames... My longest range kill so far is the 15m with sg Yet another slave of Mortedeamor

Nirwanda Vaughns 1458	Posted - 2015.02.25 13:23:00 - [41] - Quote i use my 'Daemon' on gall assault (proto skills) you can get soem good damage from further away due to the assaults hip fire/dispertion bonus. if use it on a proto suit i generally have complex profile damp complex cardiac complex kinkat 2 complex reactive plates (may have to knock to enhanced for higher tier shotties) 3 x complex DMs 'dameon' shottie toxin smg specialist active scanner its a lil mish-mash but in right hands it can be pretty nice suit. Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 846	Posted - 2015.02.25 13:28:00 - [42] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: These weapons are in such a silly and unhealthy place right now. They're only 'good' on high speed, low profile scouts Tell that to the many people who have run at my commando with breach shotgun.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:38:00 - [43] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: i use my 'Daemon' on gall assault (proto skills) you can get soem good damage from further away due to the assaults hip fire/dispertion bonus. if use it on a proto suit i generally have complex profile damp complex cardiac complex kinkat 2 complex reactive plates (may have to knock to enhanced for higher tier shotties) 3 x complex DMs 'dameon' shottie toxin smg specialist active scanner its a lil mish-mash but in right hands it can be pretty nice suit. So... in order for it to work, you need equipment that boosts your scan range, and modules that buff your profile & sprint speed. Why aren't you playing a scout? Clearly you're emulating one. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 6355	Posted - 2015.02.25 20:08:00 - [44] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. I do think the shotgun could use a slight increase to range, along with a damage decrease, but only accompanying an increase to TTK in general. With the current TTK, there just isn't any room to adjust the SG. Any less damage and the shotgunner gets torn up. Any more and you get even more ridiculous OHKs. ...and yes, the Breach Shotgun is complete crap, and it bothers me to no end. +1 Couldn't have typed it better myself.
Sinboto Simmons Dead Man's Game RUST415 7758	Posted - 2015.02.25 20:10:00 - [45] - Quote They used to be longer ranged with (slightly) lower damage, but then the shotgun twins spanked a DEV and got um nerf hammer attention attention. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2 Born of the Brutor tribe
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6931	Posted - 2015.02.25 20:14:00 - [46] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: These weapons are in such a silly and unhealthy place right now. They're only 'good' on high speed, low profile scouts that make up for the disadvantage of needing to touch someone with the weapon in order to kill them... They also work well with MN/GA Assaults. Should be in better shape if/when backpedal speed is reduced. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15781	Posted - 2015.02.25 20:21:00 - [47] - Quote Honestly I'd rather keep the current shotguns as the Plasma Shotgun and introduce new variants: Combat Shotgun: Pump Action & Mid-Range Bolt/Rail Shotgun: Long Range & Reflex Sight Scrambler Shotgun: Charge To Fire? & Mid Range The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2255	Posted - 2015.02.25 21:24:00 - [48] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. I do think the shotgun could use a slight increase to range, along with a damage decrease, but only accompanying an increase to TTK in general. With the current TTK, there just isn't any room to adjust the SG. Any less damage and the shotgunner gets torn up. Any more and you get even more ridiculous OHKs. ...and yes, the Breach Shotgun is complete crap, and it bothers me to no end. +1 Couldn't have typed it better myself. I think maybe you could have, as his arguments aren't explained or substantiated they're just predicated on 'how I feel'. Balance is predicated upon the sublimation of 'feelings' in order to achieve actual numerically demonstrable 'equality'. Adipem Nothi wrote: They also work well with MN/GA Assaults. Should be in better shape if/when backpedal speed is reduced. In short they 'work well' in pubs, if you fit a ton of speed and damps and make suicidal charges at people... where if you fit with speed and damps, you could use any other gun more safely and still perform equivalently or better than shotguns. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
TritusX PH4NT0M5 336	Posted - 2015.02.25 22:49:00 - [49] - Quote I'd like to see anyone get hit by a SPAS-12 from 20 meters That scout you see on the kill board with 20 kills and 15 deaths
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 519	Posted - 2015.02.26 01:11:00 - [50] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Joel II X wrote: Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. I do think the shotgun could use a slight increase to range, along with a damage decrease, but only accompanying an increase to TTK in general. With the current TTK, there just isn't any room to adjust the SG. Any less damage and the shotgunner gets torn up. Any more and you get even more ridiculous OHKs. ...and yes, the Breach Shotgun is complete crap, and it bothers me to no end. +1 Couldn't have typed it better myself. I think maybe you could have, as his arguments aren't explained or substantiated they're just predicated on 'how I feel'. Balance is predicated upon the sublimation of 'feelings' in order to achieve actual numerically demonstrable 'equality'. So, if numbers are so incredibly important, where are yours? All I've seen from you are two DPS calculations for a STD SG, which is meaningless due to its huge damage variance, especially when you're talking about a shotgun that shoots over 20m. Considering the shotgun can get hits, misses, and headshots all at the same time in a single shot, your "numerical demonstration" is less applicable than a purely conceptual argument. Heimdallr69 posted that he took 1400 DMG in two shots from a weapon that does ~480 DMG per shot. That is because the weapon can do almost anything between 40 and 700 DMG with a single hit. Instead of looking at how much DPS it should deal, you need to look at the average number of shots needed to kill a particular class and the percentage of the "ideal" damage needs to be inflicted for a kill. DPS calculations don't go very far with a weapon that can potentially do 700 DMG in 0 seconds. It also seems you completely ignored my post explaining my full argument. In terms of numbers, it doesn't really have much less than you've provided. What it does have is a concept that has already been implemented and proven effective in actual practice, which I can't see how you could argue is less legitimate than some untested numbers, generated in a vacuum akin to a physics problem (aka a closed system that isn't even realistically possible). I haven't used any "feelings" as you put it, I explained concepts that have been used and shown to be functional and argued how those concepts create balance and variety in gameplay. Demonstrating it numerically isn't necessary when it is a known fact. Numbers in a vacuum are meaningless. A concept is needed to dictate where the numbers should be. The reason Dust is where it is now is because it doesn't seem to be moving in any particular direction. Something gets added, something else ends up overperforming. Instead of finding where we need to be and moving towards it, it just seems like someone says "X wouldn't be as OP/UP if it had more/less Y" and it gets tweaked until that one thing is working alright, when the real problem is much bigger. Right now, we don't need numbers, we need a concept and a direction to take it. The numbers come in when that concept is pursued.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2260	Posted - 2015.02.26 06:06:00 - [51] - Quote I read your argument and provided a rebuttal as you wanted to straight nerf the shotgun, I want to alter it to be a more desireable weapon. Yes, I did two theoretical dps calculations, did you want me to do the +5% for adv or +10% for proto? For 1/2/3 damage mods? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 524	Posted - 2015.02.26 10:15:00 - [52] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I read your argument and provided a rebuttal as you wanted to straight nerf the shotgun, I want to alter it to be a more desireable weapon. Yes, I did two theoretical dps calculations, did you want me to do the +5% for adv or +10% for proto? For 1/2/3 damage mods? Are you incapable of comparing dps to suit hp? Or incapable of commenting constructively when things don't line up? Or do you just want to rant about how you don't like my idea and shotguns just need to be nerfed so that no one uses them? I never said anything about nerfing shotguns, where did you get that from? The shotgun is my most used weapon, why would I want it to be useless? That being said, it's also in my interest to retain its playstyle; I don't want to use your "slug" shotgun (it would definitely make a good Assault Shotgun). I hate not being able to HP tank my shotgun fits as much as you do, but that end would be better reached by fixing the REAL problem of TTK. The end result of my entire plan would be MORE interest in shotguns on a variety of dropsuits, but my plan doesn't involve turning the shotgun into an entirely different weapon, which is completely unnecessary. I said I wanted a decrease in the SG's damage, as a part of an increase to overall TTK. I want shotguns to have fewer OHKs, but that also includes the necessity of returning TTK to a similar state to Chromosome, where everything took more time to die. At that time: (non-Breach) shotguns were rarely an OHK, a shotgunner didn't instantly die if their opponent retaliated (and the victim usually had a chance to regain control), Assaults could close distance through HP tanking (ferroscale plates and native armor reps would make this even more viable than it already had been), and the Breach SG actually had a legitimate use (doing damage comparable to ~700 per shot at proto in today's terms). As for your calculations, you didn't provide any indication of how the shotgun was supposed to act over the 20m optimal range. If you want some constructive feedback, here you go: Does it spread? Do you expect all 12 pellets to hit at 20m? Why does it even have pellets if it doesn't seem to have any spread? Why is this any better than the shotgun before? Sure it might solve the problem of why Assaults/Commandos would want to use the SG, but why would a Scout want to use your shotgun? If you can't answer that, then you have the exact same problem, just for a different class. You stated that you didn't like how SGs were only fully viable on speed tanked scouts (I don't entirely agree with this, but I do agree that it is definitely biased in that direction). You provided what you perceive as a solution to that problem, and I stated that I didn't think it was the correct solution. At your request, I provided my reasoning: that you were seeing a legitimate issue, but you weren't addressing the real problem. I said I didn't agree with your solution, then provided the reasoning you asked for. You have yet to address your issues with my actual reasoning, you have only complained about my method of presentation. Quote: Are you incapable of comparing dps to suit hp? Ignoring a huge part of my argument, once again. I clearly stated that DPS is often completely useless in relation to the shotgun, and that you ignore that fact by basing your calculations solely on DPS. DPS is a relevant value when calculating for most rifles, HMGs, SMGs, etc. For those weapons, you aim, fire, and it delivers a semi-constant stream that approaches the theoretical DPS. That isn't a particularly useful metric for the shotgun. If a STD SG gets a 50% headshot (~125% damage) on a suit with <600eHP, it will die in 0 seconds, meaning the calculated DPS is either undefined or infinite depending on how you approach the problem. Obviously, that result is mostly inoperable in a completely numerical analysis. If the suit has ~601eHP, it will take 0.7s to kill them; if a suit has ~1199eHP, it will take 0.7 seconds to kill them; if a suit has ~1201eHP, it will take 1.4s to kill them. This is why comparing DPS to HP isn't particularly useful for shotguns, if the RNG gods aren't in a particularly good mood, all of those calculations I just did become completely invalid and the results could change dramatically. For fully automatic weapons, a few stray bullets is rarely more than a difference of milliseconds, so calculated DPS remains relevant.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15793	Posted - 2015.02.26 12:41:00 - [53] - Quote TritusX wrote: I'd like to see anyone get hit by a SPAS-12 from 20 meters That's what the KSG is for. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
demonkiller 12 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 611	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:19:00 - [54] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Shutter Fly wrote: 12 pellets Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. Why? Based on what reasoning? Are you aware of how shotguns work in real life where they shot quite well up to and beyond 30m. Thanks for the correction on the pellets though. Because shotguns are plasma weapons and the only shotgun that would come close to your idea of a shotgun would be a minmitar one which would have medium range, low damage and high RoF, something like a spas-12 firing beanbags
demonkiller 12 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 611	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:20:00 - [55] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha? That's like asking why assault rifles shoot bullets. Assault rifles dont shoot bullets, they fire plasma
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17322	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:39:00 - [56] - Quote demonkiller 12 wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha? That's like asking why assault rifles shoot bullets. Assault rifles dont shoot bullets, they fire plasma Nope I take that back. Apparently they function in a similar manner to shotgun by feeding the suspended plasma particles into a "cyclotron" that I suppose forms a magnetic containment field around it before firing it as a bolt of suspended plasma. I'm now wondering if that's what the charge part of Hybrid Charges refers to. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2260	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:52:00 - [57] - Quote True Adamance wrote: demonkiller 12 wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha? That's like asking why assault rifles shoot bullets. Assault rifles dont shoot bullets, they fire plasma Nope I take that back. Apparently they function in a similar manner to shotgun by feeding the suspended plasma particles into a "cyclotron" that I suppose forms a magnetic containment field around it before firing it as a bolt of suspended plasma. I'm now wondering if that's what the charge part of Hybrid Charges refers to. The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Zindorak Nyain Chan 1717	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:58:00 - [58] - Quote Shotguns are fine. I don't see why the need a change Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17322	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:09:00 - [59] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs. I'd assume as small bolt shaped kinetic energy penetrators in the case of Caldari. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9692	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:38:00 - [60] - Quote True Adamance wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs. I'd assume as small bolt shaped kinetic energy penetrators in the case of Caldari. Wait, so like a bullet with powder in it to explain it better. The Gallente use the bullet to sustain the powder until the powder can be properly processed, charged and emitted from the weapon? The Caldari use the powder in the bullet to ignite it and propel the bullet with the ignition from the powder? *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17323	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:45:00 - [61] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs. I'd assume as small bolt shaped kinetic energy penetrators in the case of Caldari. Wait, so like a bullet with powder in it to explain it better. The Gallente use the bullet to sustain the powder until the powder can be properly processed, charged and emitted from the weapon? The Caldari use the powder in the bullet to ignite it and propel the bullet with the ignition from the powder? To some degree yes. But in the case of the Assault Rifle that bullet is formed around the powder in the gun and then fired. The Caldari just use Railguns.....with what I imagine for small calibre weapons are solid state KE Penetrators. For larger ordinance if you read the Advanced Railgun rounds they use Super Dense Plutonium Sabots or APFSDS rounds (aka KE penetrators) and Iridium Flechette rounds triggered by Gravitron Pulse detonators (so to some degree they are smart rounds). "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2260	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:07:00 - [62] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs. I'd assume as small bolt shaped kinetic energy penetrators in the case of Caldari. Wait, so like a bullet with powder in it to explain it better. The Gallente use the bullet to sustain the powder until the powder can be properly processed, charged and emitted from the weapon? The Caldari use the powder in the bullet to ignite it and propel the bullet with the ignition from the powder? Not quite. The Gallente favor using the raw material in hybrid charges to create plasma, then contain that plasma and fire it as an electromagnetically contained bolt. I am not a scientist, but presumably it takes a massive amount of energy to do this, and this plasma still has relatively significant weight (ie, physical impulse to its hit) in addition to being unbelievably **off hot in its high-energy state... due to having to be contained by an electromagnetic field it is, understandably very short range. While the caldari also share/use blasters in eve, their ships are less oriented towards it. The Caldari method is, honestly considerably simpler and it has one of the most efficient principles behind it e=mc2. They take something incredibly molecularly dense, and use lorentz forces (?) generated by high amounts of electricity to rapidly expand a circuit as large and as fast as possible flinging the heavy 'slug' at you. How it works. In short its kind of like the difference between using a piece of wood to create fire to kill your enemies, or using a piece of wood to create arrows to shoot at your enemies. While they share these methods, the caldari like using the arrows better, and the gallente like using the fire better. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.


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