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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2244
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Posted - 2015.02.25 05:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
These weapons are in such a silly and unhealthy place right now. They're only 'good' on high speed, low profile scouts that make up for the disadvantage of needing to touch someone with the weapon in order to kill them... And let's not even get started on the terrible spot the breach is in.
Std shotgun = 10 pellets * 40 dmg, with a .7s refire rate = 1200 dmg alpha at 1.5 seconds. Their current stats have them doing 571.4 dps at basic.
What if we extended a shotguns optimal range out to ~20m and its effective to around 27m, dropped its damage to 32 * 10 pellets and kept its RoF & refire the same, this would make it potentially viable on assaults & commandos and considerably less instagibby on scouts, it would be doing 457.2 dps with these numbers. If it turns out to be overpowered on assaults/commandos we could potentially tweak the dmg a little lower
In short I'm a little miffed that the last game I played with a shotgun that actually felt like a shotgun was doom2
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2245
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Posted - 2015.02.25 06:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shutter Fly wrote:12 pellets
Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage.
Why? Based on what reasoning? Are you aware of how shotguns work in real life where they shot quite well up to and beyond 30m.
Thanks for the correction on the pellets though.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2246
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Posted - 2015.02.25 06:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match..
That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2250
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Posted - 2015.02.25 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
^part of it would be that dispersion/spread from gal-assault would be applicable.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2251
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Posted - 2015.02.25 06:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shutter Fly wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:This dude did 1400 DMG 2 shots with a std last match.. That's crazy. I'm really interested in try to get shotguns into a place where assaults and commandos would want to use them, without them being instagibby on a scout. Probably headshots, 1400 damage is entirely possible with 2 full hits and 20/24 pellets as a headshot. Also, shotguns are definitely viable on Assaults, and not just the Minmatar. The Gal assault can use the SG very effectively
Hahaha no, I've spent several hours on a gal assault 5 trying to get it to work. If it could shoot more than 5 meters maybe, the gun itself has lot of problems that are only propped up by low profile high speed suits. I want a shotgunner to ruin me at 20m with 3 accurate shots when were both assaults, that's barely the distance across most 'small' rooms in dust.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 07:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
^your post about shotguns has no discussion of numbers, it just seemingly flatly states that shotguns need to take longer to kill. Part of increasing TTK and getting the weapon into a healthy place involves increased range.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m.
Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 08:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Billi Gene wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Its not about seeing shotguns everywhere, I want them to be a seriously considered and viable option on assaults or commandos for those slugfests in maps like research lab, I'd be entirely fine with a well positioned shotgun user racking shots into people at 20m.
Right now the only 'viable' gameplay with shotguns is to run straight at people with a high speed, low profile suit, touch someone's back or side and then put shots into them. ignore the name of the gun, and think about what it is that you want from the Weapon. Is there another Weapon that does what you are asking for? if there is, then there is no need to modify the Shotgun. If there isnt another weapon that does what you are looking for, is there one that is close to it? Modify That weapon. IE: the Ion Pistol.
You're missing the point, its about fostering a discussion a weapon that is currently in an unhealthy place - they are useful on exactly one type of suit where they are arguably 'overpowered' on anything else you are considerably better served to carry almost anything else.
Lets not drag discussion of pistols or cloaks into this, this threads purpose is not complain beyond the statement that "the shotgun is broken in its current form". Even the plasma cannon has more applicable use as a 'specialist' weapon than the shotgun.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 09:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Attempting to discredit my point by claiming that I've fabricated the issue is pretty low when as I understand you shutter, you also want the shotgun to be 'fixed', but apparently that's supposed to happen with no changes made to anything other than damage?
Shotguns as a weapon have been in an uncomfortable spot for a long time, for the what 6 months when scouts ruled the game the shotgun was their weapon of choice because of how insanely it benefits from having the 'first mover' advantage. In pc there is still a large contingent of shotgun use going on, as in pubs, but this weapon is limited to a single suit - the scout, a shotgun on anything else is incredibly sub par. In short the shotgun is incredibly over specialized.
In order to perform any fix that isn't a straight nerf (ie make a weapon that's only useable on one suit unusable on *any* suit) some things need to seriously change... Like the shotgun being made into a gun that not only would scouts want, but commandos and assaults too. How is that done? By decreasing the weapons reliance on the 'first mover' advantage of stealth / speed aka, the weapon needs more range.
It's a relatively simple sequence of steps to get to the conclusion I did. Now the real question is, ignoring everything else if there was a weapon like this in dust, that did that level of dps over that range, would you want to use it?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:i use my 'Daemon' on gall assault (proto skills) you can get soem good damage from further away due to the assaults hip fire/dispertion bonus.
if use it on a proto suit i generally have
complex profile damp
complex cardiac
complex kinkat
2 complex reactive plates (may have to knock to enhanced for higher tier shotties)
3 x complex DMs
'dameon' shottie
toxin smg
specialist active scanner
its a lil mish-mash but in right hands it can be pretty nice suit.
So... in order for it to work, you need equipment that boosts your scan range, and modules that buff your profile & sprint speed.
Why aren't you playing a scout? Clearly you're emulating one.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2255
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:12 pellets
Also, the shotgun shouldn't ever be hitting optimally beyond 10-12 meters, no matter the damage. I do think the shotgun could use a slight increase to range, along with a damage decrease, but only accompanying an increase to TTK in general.
With the current TTK, there just isn't any room to adjust the SG. Any less damage and the shotgunner gets torn up. Any more and you get even more ridiculous OHKs.
...and yes, the Breach Shotgun is complete crap, and it bothers me to no end. +1 Couldn't have typed it better myself.
I think maybe you could have, as his arguments aren't explained or substantiated they're just predicated on 'how I feel'. Balance is predicated upon the sublimation of 'feelings' in order to achieve actual numerically demonstrable 'equality'.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
They also work well with MN/GA Assaults. Should be in better shape if/when backpedal speed is reduced.
In short they 'work well' in pubs, if you fit a ton of speed and damps and make suicidal charges at people... where if you fit with speed and damps, you could use any other gun more safely and still perform equivalently or better than shotguns.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2260
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Posted - 2015.02.26 06:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
I read your argument and provided a rebuttal as you wanted to straight nerf the shotgun, I want to alter it to be a more desireable weapon.
Yes, I did two theoretical dps calculations, did you want me to do the +5% for adv or +10% for proto? For 1/2/3 damage mods?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2260
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Posted - 2015.02.27 02:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:demonkiller 12 wrote:Pseudogenesis wrote:Why are shotguns so short range and high alpha? That's like asking why assault rifles shoot bullets. Assault rifles dont shoot bullets, they fire plasma Nope I take that back. Apparently they function in a similar manner to shotgun by feeding the suspended plasma particles into a "cyclotron" that I suppose forms a magnetic containment field around it before firing it as a bolt of suspended plasma. I'm now wondering if that's what the charge part of Hybrid Charges refers to.
The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2260
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Posted - 2015.02.27 04:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:True Adamance wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:
The hybrid charge is the thing that they're converting into plasma (in the case of gallente blaster weapons), caldari use the same things except just hyper-accelerate them as solid-state slugs.
I'd assume as small bolt shaped kinetic energy penetrators in the case of Caldari. Wait, so like a bullet with powder in it to explain it better. The Gallente use the bullet to sustain the powder until the powder can be properly processed, charged and emitted from the weapon? The Caldari use the powder in the bullet to ignite it and propel the bullet with the ignition from the powder?
Not quite. The Gallente favor using the raw material in hybrid charges to create plasma, then contain that plasma and fire it as an electromagnetically contained bolt. I am not a scientist, but presumably it takes a massive amount of energy to do this, and this plasma still has relatively significant weight (ie, physical impulse to its hit) in addition to being unbelievably ****off hot in its high-energy state... due to having to be contained by an electromagnetic field it is, understandably very short range. While the caldari also share/use blasters in eve, their ships are less oriented towards it.
The Caldari method is, honestly considerably simpler and it has one of the most efficient principles behind it e=mc2. They take something incredibly molecularly dense, and use lorentz forces (?) generated by high amounts of electricity to rapidly expand a circuit as large and as fast as possible flinging the heavy 'slug' at you. How it works.
In short its kind of like the difference between using a piece of wood to create fire to kill your enemies, or using a piece of wood to create arrows to shoot at your enemies. While they share these methods, the caldari like using the arrows better, and the gallente like using the fire better.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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