DUST Search - CCP Rattati: A Plea For Caution

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

CCP Rattati: A Plea For Caution

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15727	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:55:00 - [1] - Quote I see you seem to be considering more AV buffs to help handle tanks, which is all well and good, but I just wanted to make this into its own thread to highlight one obvious thing, just in case: Dropships (and LAVs) are not tanks. Any buff to anything other than PLC at this point will force dropships into obscurity. Right now, you live or die most of the time by literally one to two seconds. If you take any longer than that to properly respond to any given threat, you die. And, while frustrating, thats mostly ok. Go buffing AV without adjusting our hp to compensate (or return native resists) and we will lose that one to two second window, and die horrible deaths with little to no ability to react and survive. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:45:00 - [2] - Quote Don't buff the AV. They are FINE as is. They require coordination and that is FINE. It should NOT go back to Lone Wolf, Low-SP, AV'rs able to hold off entire tank groups. I have to coordinate to engage and disengage to survive. The other side needs to do the same. They should NOT expect to kill me every engagement and if you do so balance it that way, you need to cut the price MORE for our vehicles.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7146	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:05:00 - [3] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Don't buff the AV. They are FINE as is. They require coordination and that is FINE. It should NOT go back to Lone Wolf, Low-SP, AV'rs able to hold off entire tank groups. I have to coordinate to engage and disengage to survive. The other side needs to do the same. They should NOT expect to kill me every engagement and if you do so balance it that way, you need to cut the price MORE for our vehicles. no they are not fine. AV
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1253	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:06:00 - [4] - Quote you are forgetting the current tanks are milita/basic when proto tanks return do you want it to take a whole team to destroy one should work like basic av can destroy basic tank with some challenge advanced av destroy basic tank with some effort proto av destroy basic tank with ease basic av destroy advanced tank with difficulty advanced av destroy advanced tank with some challenge proto av destroys advanced tank with some effort basic av destroy proto tank very difficult advanced av destroy proto tank with with difficulty proto av destroy proto tank with some challenge similar theory for all vehicles it cant take 3-4 players off the map to kill 1 vehicle that is very unfair/unbalanced at least with a 16 vs 16 match. 100 vs 100 would be a different story. I understand risk vs reward and that tanks are expensive but if it takes 4 av users to destroy 1 basic shield tank what happens when proto tanks are reintroduced? 4 shield tanks = win? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15729	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:13:00 - [5] - Quote Im only concerned with assets that actually exist right now, or in the near future. There is still no info on when or even if vehicles will get higher tier hulls, so we cant as non CCP / CPM account for those shadow factors. Also, speaking of things that dont exist, there is no anti shield av save PLC, flux grenades, and large blasters. If you would see AV buffed to handle tanks, without compensating dropships and LAVs in return, you will have everything in the game except shield HAVs woefully underpowered in all aspects Hence, the thread, cautioning CCP to tread lightly and slowly on this matter. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1253	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:16:00 - [6] - Quote I agree with your concern but since the vehicles currently are basic should they not be balanced as basic, being weak to stronger av? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15730	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:21:00 - [7] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: I agree with your concern but since the vehicles currently are basic should they not be balanced as basic, being weak to stronger av? Unfortunately no, they shouldnt, because that means that no matter how much Sp you pour into your role, you will ALWAYS be inferior and subject to losing massive amounts of ISK no matter how well you operate your vehicle. Basic vehicles can only be balanced as basic when all options exist, allowing for progression. Otherwise, you just doom pilots to a life of misery and rage. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1253	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:25:00 - [8] - Quote and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15730	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:26:00 - [9] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? Only if that team spawns no AV in response. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7148	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:28:00 - [10] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? Only if that team spawns no AV in response. more specifically if the team is unlucky enough to not have someone who runs dedicated AV AV

DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15730	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:30:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? Only if that team spawns no AV in response. more specifically if the team is unlucky enough to not have someone who runs dedicated AV More specifically still if that team is unlucky enough to not use installations or free damage stacked rail tanks. Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:43:00 - [12] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: you are forgetting the current tanks are milita/basic when proto tanks return do you want it to take a whole team to destroy one should work like basic av can destroy basic tank with some challenge advanced av destroy basic tank with some effort proto av destroy basic tank with ease basic av destroy advanced tank with difficulty advanced av destroy advanced tank with some challenge proto av destroys advanced tank with some effort basic av destroy proto tank very difficult advanced av destroy proto tank with with difficulty proto av destroy proto tank with some challenge similar theory for all vehicles it cant take 3-4 players off the map to kill 1 vehicle that is very unfair/unbalanced at least with a 16 vs 16 match. 100 vs 100 would be a different story. I understand risk vs reward and that tanks are expensive but if it takes 4 av users to destroy 1 basic shield tank what happens when proto tanks are reintroduced? 4 shield tanks = win? should a hav, lav or dropship be able to one shot infantry if infantry cant 1 shot the pilot? Until we get advance and proto tanks, this thinking is NOT fine.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1527	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:33:00 - [13] - Quote What buffs to AV have you heard about? I haven't heard of any nor do I think any ate needed. Because, that's why.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15732	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:37:00 - [14] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: What buffs to AV have you heard about? I haven't heard of any nor do I think any ate needed. In Spkrs thread about continual shield regen or whatever, rattati breaks down his personal experience vs tanks and shows at least a slight interest in buffing AV. Also, the HAV initiative calls for higher tier hulls, yet no word on when other vehicles will recieve similar treatment. Im just afraid he will buff AV to handle new tanks without giving other vehicles the same treatment for months on end. Ive been here long enough to know how this goes haha, as have you if im not mistaken My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7156	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:42:00 - [15] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Ku Shala wrote: you are forgetting the current tanks are milita/basic when proto tanks return do you want it to take a whole team to destroy one should work like basic av can destroy basic tank with some challenge advanced av destroy basic tank with some effort proto av destroy basic tank with ease basic av destroy advanced tank with difficulty advanced av destroy advanced tank with some challenge proto av destroys advanced tank with some effort basic av destroy proto tank very difficult advanced av destroy proto tank with with difficulty proto av destroy proto tank with some challenge similar theory for all vehicles it cant take 3-4 players off the map to kill 1 vehicle that is very unfair/unbalanced at least with a 16 vs 16 match. 100 vs 100 would be a different story. I understand risk vs reward and that tanks are expensive but if it takes 4 av users to destroy 1 basic shield tank what happens when proto tanks are reintroduced? 4 shield tanks = win? should a hav, lav or dropship be able to one shot infantry if infantry cant 1 shot the pilot? Until we get advance and proto tanks, this thinking is NOT fine. and until we get the advanced and proto tanks, odds are AV is going to be on the backburner according to rattati. I'm doing preliminary work and have been helping him with the numbers. I also submitted a proposal for buffing the crap out of vehicles in general, so assuming I'm in it to make vehicles EZ mode tells me that you're sipping spkr4thedead's kool-aid. Stop it. That stuff ain't safe. Edit: Just understand that Proto tanks will be balanced with proto AV, ADV with ADV and STD with STD. No more of this sicas tanking better than a maddy BS AV
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15732	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:47:00 - [16] - Quote And that would be a welcome change, so long as balancing happens all at once. We can't balance basic vehicles as trash vs proto AV till we have proto vehicles of all types actually in the game My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1253	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:53:00 - [17] - Quote correct me if im wrong but the higher level vehicles were removed to make balancing av easier? so the vehicles we have now must be treated as basic because that is what they are. balance them so they act as proto and that will leave the scale off centre and we have the same problems we had before they were removed. Its an unfortunate step that pilots will pay the price for. vehicles are similar to dropsuits, fit a basic suit with proto modules and passive skills and you have a suit that is similar to a proto suit that is where vehicles are now *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15732	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:58:00 - [18] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: correct me if im wrong but the higher level vehicles were removed to make balancing av easier? so the vehicles we have now must be treated as basic because that is what they are. balance them so they act as proto and that will leave the scale off centre and we have the same problems we had before they were removed. Its an unfortunate step that pilots will pay the price for. vehicles are similar to dropsuits, fit a basic suit with proto modules and passive skills and you have a suit that is similar to a proto suit that is where vehicles are now Or Keep it as is, and only roll out the new balance changes when ALL vehicles can be addressed at once, instead of creating a horrible AV vs v imbalance for possibly months on end My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8681	Posted - 2015.02.13 03:32:00 - [19] - Quote Read thread title. Read author's name. Instantly knew what this was going to be about. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 95	Posted - 2015.02.13 03:43:00 - [20] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Don't buff the AV. They are FINE as is. They require coordination and that is FINE. It should NOT go back to Lone Wolf, Low-SP, AV'rs able to hold off entire tank groups. I have to coordinate to engage and disengage to survive. The other side needs to do the same. They should NOT expect to kill me every engagement and if you do so balance it that way, you need to cut the price MORE for our vehicles. Well, in this case it would only be reasonable that it takes 2 people to operate a HAV. 2 people to drive them off, 2 people to use them. Seems balanced, no?

DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 96	Posted - 2015.02.13 03:54:00 - [21] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? Vehicles are already immune to most weapons in the game, and youre saying "Its their fault that they died to a vehicle because they werent pidgeonholing themselves into AV"
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15742	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:06:00 - [22] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? Vehicles are already immune to most weapons in the game, and youre saying "Its their fault that they died to a vehicle because they werent pidgeonholing themselves into AV" And im saying, what do you want? Infantry only game? Sorry, thats not what it is. Im saying AV is a thing, and you need to live with it, or adjust your approach in battle accordingly. If no one wants to call in a sica with a rail and damage mods that costs exactly 0 Sp to deploy, then thats on your team. I just dont get what is you want is all. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 38	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:33:00 - [23] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I see you seem to be considering more AV buffs to help handle tanks, which is all well and good, but I just wanted to make this into its own thread to highlight one obvious thing, just in case: Dropships (and LAVs) are not tanks. Any buff to anything other than PLC at this point will force dropships into obscurity. Right now, you live or die most of the time by literally one to two seconds. If you take any longer than that to properly respond to any given threat, you die. And, while frustrating, thats mostly ok. Go buffing AV without adjusting our hp to compensate (or return native resists) and we will lose that one to two second window, and die horrible deaths with little to no ability to react and survive. Heres an idea so your not changing HP but not screwing with LAVs and Drop Ships to much. tritan abbattere wrote: I was thinking for swarms you have the lock on time change based on the vehicle in question.. Kinda like the lock on system in EVE. Your swarm launcher has a Sensor strength and your vehicle Signature size. Dropships and LAVs could have this lowered while tanks have same lock on time. This could be another balancing factor for AV. Could even add Passive and active ewar to tanks to complement this system. Link to my quote I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Michael Epic Bragian Order Amarr Empire 480	Posted - 2015.02.13 15:26:00 - [24] - Quote Look man....I was in 3 matches last night where the raspberry team called in THREE assault dropships, totally proto everything and shield hardeners and all they did was circle around the domination objective dropping ordinance. There were 4 players with swarms and myself and another guy with forges and not one dropship was blown up...every time they'd get hit, they'd fly so far up and out of range and shield boost and then come back down while the other two swarmed around. 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Seems to me like Dropships need to be dealt with like tanks...the vehicles in this game are overpowered x10, they were GOOD in 1.6 and now in Warlords 1.0, they're not as bad as Uprising 1.7/1.8 but they're still bad.
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15753	Posted - 2015.02.13 15:33:00 - [25] - Quote I think anti ahield AV needs to be introduced, so yes, I do feel that buffing AV without compensating will be a problem. Most people struggle with shield vehicles, then call for AV buffs, not realizing how much damage they currently do to armor. You cant fix AV imbalance till an effective anti shield option becomes available, and that only Rattat can help you with. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 41	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:40:00 - [26] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I think anti ahield AV needs to be introduced, so yes, I do feel that buffing AV without compensating will be a problem. Most people struggle with shield vehicles, then call for AV buffs, not realizing how much damage they currently do to armor. You cant fix AV imbalance till an effective anti shield option becomes available, and that only Rattat can help you with. tachyon cannon for heavy amarr AV? Giant Beam Laser that fires for 1/10 of a second :D I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 423	Posted - 2015.02.13 18:26:00 - [27] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I see you seem to be considering more AV buffs to help handle tanks, which is all well and good, but I just wanted to make this into its own thread to highlight one obvious thing, just in case: Dropships (and LAVs) are not tanks. Any buff to anything other than PLC at this point will force dropships into obscurity. Right now, you live or die most of the time by literally one to two seconds. If you take any longer than that to properly respond to any given threat, you die. And, while frustrating, thats mostly ok. Go buffing AV without adjusting our hp to compensate (or return native resists) and we will lose that one to two second window, and die horrible deaths with little to no ability to react and survive. Agree, the balance on dropships (outside of some very specific fits for the python) is much more finely tuned and could easily be upset to completely destroy non-transport use. The problem out there today is not that AV is underpowered, its that tanks are overpowered. Specifically the Gunnlogi, I think the madruger is in a better place, but honestly I cant even tell since the field is absolutely 100% dominated by these chodes in Gunnlogi EHP fits. Nerf Gunnlogis first, see where balance is afterwards, and go from there. (Vehicle release is probably coming out well before any rebalancing happens, so Im not even sure these discussions matter )
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 766	Posted - 2015.02.13 18:50:00 - [28] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: I agree with your concern but since the vehicles currently are basic should they not be balanced as basic, being weak to stronger av? They're basic fitted with complex modules, Which are required to not get torn apart by a starter fit swarm launcher. How about you fit a 'basic' ads with all 'basic' mods and tell me how long you live once out of the red zone. I fly a Incubus occasionally with an mCRU taking up a slot. It can be downed (and has been many times) when just flying near an adv swarmer, because unless I'm going full speed, or have some terrain big enough to block the lock, all 3 rounds will land and I will have 0 health. the starter fit swarms would down this fit in 4... Would be nice to be able to fly something other than the afterburner ads without being downed by someone you can't see, firing something you can't see, from somewhere you can't see. When are invisible swarms going to get sorted?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 18:51:00 - [29] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Don't buff the AV. They are FINE as is. They require coordination and that is FINE. It should NOT go back to Lone Wolf, Low-SP, AV'rs able to hold off entire tank groups. I have to coordinate to engage and disengage to survive. The other side needs to do the same. They should NOT expect to kill me every engagement and if you do so balance it that way, you need to cut the price MORE for our vehicles. It still is lone wolf. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 18:58:00 - [30] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? So tanks should have absolutely no anti infantry role at all? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:02:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? Only if that team spawns no AV in response. more specifically if the team is unlucky enough to not have someone who runs dedicated AV So the game should be balanced around that unlikely scenario? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 766	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:13:00 - [32] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? Vehicles are already immune to most weapons in the game, and youre saying "Its their fault that they died to a vehicle because they werent pidgeonholing themselves into AV" If someone dies to a vehicle, they weren't very aware of their surroundings. When I'm screwing around in my commando (no swarms, swarms are for scrubs... The bad kind of Scrubs) and I see anything other than an LAV I check to see if it has guns and if it does, I either shoot the gunner, or I hide and wait for it to go away. Vehicles can't magically kill you, they have to shoot you. Breakin Stuff wrote: more specifically if the team is unlucky enough to not have someone who runs dedicated AV Then your team either needs to tippy toe around trying not to out in the open when the vehicles are near, or they need to bring out a militia vehicle (don't tell me they're useless I run a militia fit Sica and I have also run a state gunni on a character that has no points in vehicles & I can tell you they do the business!) Yes you have to work harder because you're not specced into it... But then if I'm specced into vehicles and not infantry, I have to work twice as hard if I want to get into the objective in an assault suit. There's also the option of your team working together to bring out the starter fit swarms. Trust me when I tell you this, 3 - 6 people firing those at your protato tank can take it out. My point being, if you're ~~unlucky~~ don't plan well enough to bring high level AV with you, you are going to have to be at a disadvantage, as you should be for neglecting a role.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:13:00 - [33] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Ku Shala wrote: you are forgetting the current tanks are milita/basic when proto tanks return do you want it to take a whole team to destroy one should work like basic av can destroy basic tank with some challenge advanced av destroy basic tank with some effort proto av destroy basic tank with ease basic av destroy advanced tank with difficulty advanced av destroy advanced tank with some challenge proto av destroys advanced tank with some effort basic av destroy proto tank very difficult advanced av destroy proto tank with with difficulty proto av destroy proto tank with some challenge similar theory for all vehicles it cant take 3-4 players off the map to kill 1 vehicle that is very unfair/unbalanced at least with a 16 vs 16 match. 100 vs 100 would be a different story. I understand risk vs reward and that tanks are expensive but if it takes 4 av users to destroy 1 basic shield tank what happens when proto tanks are reintroduced? 4 shield tanks = win? should a hav, lav or dropship be able to one shot infantry if infantry cant 1 shot the pilot? Until we get advance and proto tanks, this thinking is NOT fine. and until we get the advanced and proto tanks, odds are AV is going to be on the backburner according to rattati. I'm doing preliminary work and have been helping him with the numbers. I also submitted a proposal for buffing the crap out of vehicles in general, so assuming I'm in it to make vehicles EZ mode tells me that you're sipping spkr4thedead's kool-aid. Stop it. That stuff ain't safe. Edit: Just understand that Proto tanks will be balanced with proto AV, ADV with ADV and STD with STD. No more of this sicas tanking better than a maddy BS So how exactly will the meta levels be balanced against themselves? Will PRO AV not be able to damage STD hulls? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:18:00 - [34] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: correct me if im wrong but the higher level vehicles were removed to make balancing av easier? That was the sorry excuse given to us. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4957	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:18:00 - [35] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So how exactly will the meta levels be balanced against themselves? Will PRO AV not be able to damage STD hulls? I imagine it would behave similarly to what happens when you shoot a standard dropsuit with a proto weapon. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7178	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:22:00 - [36] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: So how exactly will the meta levels be balanced against themselves? Will PRO AV not be able to damage STD hulls? I imagine it would behave similarly to what happens when you shoot a standard dropsuit with a proto weapon. I believe PRO AV will be balanced VS. PRO hulls. so yeah, bring an STD hull into PC and you're gonna get blitzbombed into oblivion. AV
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 424	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:24:00 - [37] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I think anti ahield AV needs to be introduced, so yes, I do feel that buffing AV without compensating will be a problem. Most people struggle with shield vehicles, then call for AV buffs, not realizing how much damage they currently do to armor. You cant fix AV imbalance till an effective anti shield option becomes available, and that only Rattat can help you with. I just want to reiterate what I've said in other threads: Damage profile is NOT the issue currently. The problem is the shield tanks right now are just straight up overpowered compared to their armor counterparts. You dont see people running infantry complaining about not being able to kill Caldari assaults when using armor weapons, because you can kill Cal Assaults with any infantry weapon in the game. Ive pumped my entire ammo supply of proto swarms + 2 proto AV grenades + some random blueberry also contributed a clip of swarms (not sure what level) and just barely killed a Gunnlogi with my last swarm that was literally sitting there in front of us like an idiot 30 meters away in an open area. It should not require that much effort to destroy a tank, even if the damage profiles are vs. armor. And he all this took so much time that he could have easily drove away at any time and escaped. This is the kind of thing I experience every day in dust, the only time a tank dies is when they are driven by complete idiots or someone not paying attention, or when a huge fraction of the enemy team makes a massive, disproportionate, coordinated effort to kill them. They have so much time to react and escape that there is pretty much no excuse, on top of this, Gunnlogis are so absurdly overpowered that it takes it to the point that Ive had a squad of 4 AVers, all proto, pummel the ** out of a Gunnlogi that we lured to within 20 meters of us (with an LAV drop) and even then the **** almost got away when his nearest cover was ~200m away. There is no balance in the tanker game until the Gunnlogi is nerfed to near where the Madruger is right now.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7178	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:29:00 - [38] - Quote the projected EHP of the PRO armor HAVs is higher than the gunnlogi. Even with my numbers for AV it'll still require a reload to kill one that's maxed out. Believe it or not the Gunnlogi will hold well vs. the forge gun even with that consideration because the damage profile and the fact that the proficiency skill only affects armor will cause the forge gun to be much less efficient vs shields. the UHAV is going to sit there and eat shot after shot after shot with it's projected EHP. Might be a good target for a breach gun. but there's issues with that. there's also the issue of tower forges. HAVs need a method of splatting them, even if it's having a small rail that can elevate to pick their ass off. AV
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4957	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:29:00 - [39] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: There is no balance in the tanker game until the Gunnlogi is nerfed to near where the Madruger is right now. Ehhhhhh I'd shoot for more of a middleground, Madrugar is garbage right now and should not be used as a baseline. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:35:00 - [40] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Look man....I was in 3 matches last night where the raspberry team called in THREE assault dropships, totally proto everything and shield hardeners and all they did was circle around the domination objective dropping ordinance. There were 4 players with swarms and myself and another guy with forges and not one dropship was blown up...every time they'd get hit, they'd fly so far up and out of range and shield boost and then come back down while the other two swarmed around. 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Seems to me like Dropships need to be dealt with like tanks...the vehicles in this game are overpowered x10, they were GOOD in 1.6 and now in Warlords 1.0, they're not as bad as Uprising 1.7/1.8 but they're still bad. You're complaining about reaction time, not overpowered vehicles. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:53:00 - [41] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: So how exactly will the meta levels be balanced against themselves? Will PRO AV not be able to damage STD hulls? I imagine it would behave similarly to what happens when you shoot a standard dropsuit with a proto weapon. I believe PRO AV will be balanced VS. PRO hulls. so yeah, bring an STD hull into PC and you're gonna get blitzbombed into oblivion. I think that's the first time I've ever seen you mention PC as far as vehicles are concerned. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 769	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:54:00 - [42] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Then your guys failed to aim at the same target, or even at 2 of the targets. You can get at least 2 shots from 1 swarm launcher to hit a dropship before it can be out of range. So if 4 guys fire 8 rounds of swarms at a Python, it's going down, even if they're militia... Add in the forge gunners and well they must have missed every damn shot, lol. I've taken out hardened Pythons with an adv forge gun many a time. They require to run to even stand a chance of escaping, if they fly around and try to dodge then they aren't shooting me, if they aren't shooting me they're getting shot. You don't need a nerf, you need your guys to practice using AV. Also maybe try out the breach forge, one hit from that and the pilot will have brown trousers, hardener or no.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:55:00 - [43] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the projected EHP of the PRO armor HAVs is higher than the gunnlogi. Even with my numbers for AV it'll still require a reload to kill one that's maxed out. Believe it or not the Gunnlogi will hold well vs. the forge gun even with that consideration because the damage profile and the fact that the proficiency skill only affects armor will cause the forge gun to be much less efficient vs shields. the UHAV is going to sit there and eat shot after shot after shot with it's projected EHP. Might be a good target for a breach gun. but there's issues with that. there's also the issue of tower forges. HAVs need a method of splatting them, even if it's having a small rail that can elevate to pick their ass off. So as a benchmark, that's less than 12 seconds to destroy a vehicle with everything on? That's insane for one person. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:01:00 - [44] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Don't buff the AV. They are FINE as is. They require coordination and that is FINE. It should NOT go back to Lone Wolf, Low-SP, AV'rs able to hold off entire tank groups. I have to coordinate to engage and disengage to survive. The other side needs to do the same. They should NOT expect to kill me every engagement and if you do so balance it that way, you need to cut the price MORE for our vehicles. AV isn't fine, if anything it's OP (at least swarms are, forge guns, PLCs and AV nades are fine) "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:03:00 - [45] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: you are forgetting the current tanks are milita/basic when proto tanks return do you want it to take a whole team to destroy one should work like basic av can destroy basic tank with some challenge advanced av destroy basic tank with some effort proto av destroy basic tank with ease basic av destroy advanced tank with difficulty advanced av destroy advanced tank with some challenge proto av destroys advanced tank with some effort basic av destroy proto tank very difficult advanced av destroy proto tank with with difficulty proto av destroy proto tank with some challenge similar theory for all vehicles it cant take 3-4 players off the map to kill 1 vehicle that is very unfair/unbalanced at least with a 16 vs 16 match. 100 vs 100 would be a different story. I understand risk vs reward and that tanks are expensive but if it takes 4 av users to destroy 1 basic shield tank what happens when proto tanks are reintroduced? 4 shield tanks = win? should a hav, lav or dropship be able to one shot infantry if infantry cant 1 shot the pilot? Vehicles are force multipliers, this isn't a bad thing, in fact it's oneof the main ways they support the infantry on a team. Besides it's not like the other team can't call in vehicles too is it? "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:07:00 - [46] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: and pilots dont have that effect on infantry now? It's much harder to kill infantry in tanks as it is to kill tanks as infantry. If the blaster had the original dispersion then it would be a different story because they would be able to kill the infantry too, but they can't hit anything. As for rails, you get 4 shots before overheat and if you miss the small moving target with all of those then you get nothing. "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:11:00 - [47] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? Vehicles are already immune to most weapons in the game, and youre saying "Its their fault that they died to a vehicle because they werent pidgeonholing themselves into AV" Yes, they are, but that advantage comes with lots of disadvantages, such as not being able to hack objectives, costing much much more (isk and sp) and being much, much, much bigger than infantry "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:24:00 - [48] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Look man....I was in 3 matches last night where the raspberry team called in THREE assault dropships, totally proto everything and shield hardeners and all they did was circle around the domination objective dropping ordinance. There were 4 players with swarms and myself and another guy with forges and not one dropship was blown up...every time they'd get hit, they'd fly so far up and out of range and shield boost and then come back down while the other two swarmed around. 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Seems to me like Dropships need to be dealt with like tanks...the vehicles in this game are overpowered x10, they were GOOD in 1.6 and now in Warlords 1.0, they're not as bad as Uprising 1.7/1.8 but they're still bad. They are in no way OP, what you experienced is a very organised ADS group, and your team were trying to counter it with terrible AV. I took out 5 ADS in a dom earlier with just adv swarms, I seriously don't see how you struggled to counter 3 ADS "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:27:00 - [49] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: DRT 99 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Should vehicles take 1000% damage from small arms fire to compensate for that teams lack of preparedness? How does the enmy not spawning AV factor into a V vs AV discussion? Vehicles are already immune to most weapons in the game, and youre saying "Its their fault that they died to a vehicle because they werent pidgeonholing themselves into AV" If someone dies to a vehicle, they weren't very aware of their surroundings. When I'm screwing around in my commando (no swarms, swarms are for scrubs... The bad kind of Scrubs) and I see anything other than an LAV I check to see if it has guns and if it does, I either shoot the gunner, or I hide and wait for it to go away. Vehicles can't magically kill you, they have to shoot you. Breakin Stuff wrote: more specifically if the team is unlucky enough to not have someone who runs dedicated AV Then your team either needs to tippy toe around trying not to out in the open when the vehicles are near, or they need to bring out a militia vehicle (don't tell me they're useless I run a militia fit Sica and I have also run a state gunni on a character that has no points in vehicles & I can tell you they do the business!) Yes you have to work harder because you're not specced into it... But then if I'm specced into vehicles and not infantry, I have to work twice as hard if I want to get into the objective in an assault suit. There's also the option of your team working together to bring out the starter fit swarms. Trust me when I tell you this, 3 - 6 people firing those at your protato tank can take it out. My point being, if you're ~~unlucky~~ don't plan well enough to bring high level AV with you, you are going to have to be at a disadvantage, as you should be for neglecting a role. Exactly, normally I can just avoid vehicles because they don't NEED to be destroyed. Half the time I can just jump up and down in front of a tank without much problem because they can't aim for **** "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7179	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:34:00 - [50] - Quote Jammeh McJam wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Look man....I was in 3 matches last night where the raspberry team called in THREE assault dropships, totally proto everything and shield hardeners and all they did was circle around the domination objective dropping ordinance. There were 4 players with swarms and myself and another guy with forges and not one dropship was blown up...every time they'd get hit, they'd fly so far up and out of range and shield boost and then come back down while the other two swarmed around. 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Seems to me like Dropships need to be dealt with like tanks...the vehicles in this game are overpowered x10, they were GOOD in 1.6 and now in Warlords 1.0, they're not as bad as Uprising 1.7/1.8 but they're still bad. They are in no way OP, what you experienced is a very organised ADS group, and your team were trying to counter it with terrible AV. I took out 5 ADS in a dom earlier with just adv swarms, I seriously don't see how you struggled to counter 3 ADS if 4 swarms and 2 forges couldn't kill one ADS then yeah, I'd say that gets a nomination for worst AV players in the game. AV

Jammeh McJam T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 209	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:37:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jammeh McJam wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Look man....I was in 3 matches last night where the raspberry team called in THREE assault dropships, totally proto everything and shield hardeners and all they did was circle around the domination objective dropping ordinance. There were 4 players with swarms and myself and another guy with forges and not one dropship was blown up...every time they'd get hit, they'd fly so far up and out of range and shield boost and then come back down while the other two swarmed around. 4 swarm launchers and 2 forge guns couldn't take out even ONE of them...and you're saying wah don't buff AV it'll hurt dropshipssssssssss Seems to me like Dropships need to be dealt with like tanks...the vehicles in this game are overpowered x10, they were GOOD in 1.6 and now in Warlords 1.0, they're not as bad as Uprising 1.7/1.8 but they're still bad. They are in no way OP, what you experienced is a very organised ADS group, and your team were trying to counter it with terrible AV. I took out 5 ADS in a dom earlier with just adv swarms, I seriously don't see how you struggled to counter 3 ADS if 4 swarms and 2 forges couldn't kill one ADS then yeah, I'd say that gets a nomination for worst AV players in the game. lol, exactly. If swarmers fail to hit the target then they're doing something wrong "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8712	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:24:00 - [52] - Quote IMO, if it takes three small missile launcher rounds to kill a MinMando with Swarms... Should only take three swarms to kill that same ADS. Sorry, but I don't believe that it should take more than one person to kill any other one person in a game that's 16v16, especially when you've already got the added benefit of being immune to any non-AV weapon. But, yanno, feel free to pull DUST Fiend in here so he can complain about getting hit by those OP Null Cannons. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:46:00 - [53] - Quote Minmando is a nonfactor. Plugged in the nunbers. Single clip DPS advantage over 3 mod assault: 3.6%. The explosive bonus everyone cries about is a psychological advantage. Nothing more. The RELOAD SPEED BONUS, however, adds 14% to the total DPS over an assault assuming the minmando fired their entire ammunition supply as fast as it was literslly possible. AV
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15765	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:44:00 - [54] - Quote I haven't seen Aeon so butthurt since he lost the CPM election. Its refreshing :3 Anyways, I wish we could get some proposed numbers from Rattati for dropship progression like he's provided for HAVs (at least in concept) so we have a better idea what buffs will be reasonable in light of the vehicle changes. All I know is if Legion becomes a thing, it NEEDS a damn test server. Would make our lives so much better haha My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7189	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:50:00 - [55] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I haven't seen Aeon so butthurt since he lost the CPM election. Its refreshing :3 Anyways, I wish we could get some proposed numbers from Rattati for dropship progression like he's provided for HAVs (at least in concept) so we have a better idea what buffs will be reasonable in light of the vehicle changes. All I know is if Legion becomes a thing, it NEEDS a damn test server. Would make our lives so much better haha Let's get through the HAV rebalance and see where the chips fall. I dunno about rattati but theorycrafting numbers for balance is nothing short of headache inducing. Doing dropships at the same time as HAVs would probably induce me to punch a hole through the work station. But if the HAV rebalance works then dropships should be easier. AV
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15765	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:53:00 - [56] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I haven't seen Aeon so butthurt since he lost the CPM election. Its refreshing :3 Anyways, I wish we could get some proposed numbers from Rattati for dropship progression like he's provided for HAVs (at least in concept) so we have a better idea what buffs will be reasonable in light of the vehicle changes. All I know is if Legion becomes a thing, it NEEDS a damn test server. Would make our lives so much better haha Let's get through the HAV rebalance and see where the chips fall. I dunno about rattati but theorycrafting numbers for balance is nothing short of headache inducing. Doing dropships at the same time as HAVs would probably induce me to punch a hole through the work station. But if the HAV rebalance works then dropships should be easier. Im just really scared of having a month or two where AV is buffed to handle new tanks, making flying all but impossible for that time. Or, inversely, they buff tanks and leave AV as is, resulting in op tanks. I wish they could do all this stuff internally first. Get everything hammered out on their side, then roll it out all at once. Doing it piece by piece is jarring at best, particularly since we have to pay out of pocket for our assets. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2919	Posted - 2015.02.14 19:48:00 - [57] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I haven't seen Aeon so butthurt since he lost the CPM election. Its refreshing :3 Anyways, I wish we could get some proposed numbers from Rattati for dropship progression like he's provided for HAVs (at least in concept) so we have a better idea what buffs will be reasonable in light of the vehicle changes. All I know is if Legion becomes a thing, it NEEDS a damn test server. Would make our lives so much better haha Let's get through the HAV rebalance and see where the chips fall. I dunno about rattati but theorycrafting numbers for balance is nothing short of headache inducing. Doing dropships at the same time as HAVs would probably induce me to punch a hole through the work station. But if the HAV rebalance works then dropships should be easier. Im just really scared of having a month or two where AV is buffed to handle new tanks, making flying all but impossible for that time. Or, inversely, they buff tanks and leave AV as is, resulting in op tanks. I wish they could do all this stuff internally first. Get everything hammered out on their side, then roll it out all at once. Doing it piece by piece is jarring at best, particularly since we have to pay out of pocket for our assets. That would require them to have player testers or themselves to be decent enough to test it, which I highly doubt they have or is, seeing as how long it too them to start doing this, and even Master Splinter telling us himself that he's not good at either. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15769	Posted - 2015.02.14 19:57:00 - [58] - Quote I mean keep the feedback and dialogue with us going, but dont actually roll out changes untill its all done, in one big update. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"


Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.