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Is it me or Swarm Launchers are ridiculous?

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Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1252	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:05:00 - [1] - Quote The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
4lbert Wesker WESKER S.T.A.R.S 29	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:07:00 - [2] - Quote You suck. I punched camel once,and it meowed at me
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1494	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:08:00 - [3] - Quote Uhh oh, you asked for it. The whole community is gonna come here and throw sh*t in your face. You can't just come her and ask to nerf I win buttons for infantry man!! They'll nerf your vehicles!! Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Tectonic Fusion 2299	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:10:00 - [4] - Quote The only skill you need to be a good swarmer is good timing and quick nanohive deploying so yeah... (GIF)
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 450	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1252	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:19:00 - [6] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. I dont know if you are trolling or being serious anyway. 1 proper position: do you mean being able to stand still? Cause that's the proper position you need. 2 has to worry about getting ganked: you just need the incredible skill to stay near your friends. 3 while trying not to get killed by the pilot: land an hit on that pilot and he'll make a damn barrel roll, good luck to him on his try to aim you. What does the swarmer have to do? Press R1, stay near friends. What does the pilot have to do? Fly the damn dropship, find the swarmer between all the players, aim at you while flying, try to not crash into every wall or into the ground because of your missiles, maybe activate a couple of modules. Seems fine. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1427	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:19:00 - [7] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. -_- Pleez... Vehicle: -Watch out for red installations -Hear a swarm (or just get hit by the silent invisible ones)- get to good cover (can't effectively fight back) -Shield booster, hardener, afterburner, nitro injector activation -Vehicles also need proper positioning (ie. cover) Swarmer: -Proper positioning -Getting ganked by infantry (so does all other infantry) -Timing of swarms I don't get it. A swarmer complains that they get killed by infantry, even though willingly doing it just to kill a tank that really can only kill idiots standing still or people that don't have cover (which can still be killed faster with a light weapon). Why is the hate for tanks so god damn high? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Lupus Wolf Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:20:00 - [8] - Quote The play for vehicles nowadays is call in, do as much damage as you can before AV shows up (which can vary depending on the competence of the enemy team), run back to the redline, and depending on how rich you're feeling, either recall your vehicle or continue the rest of the match on a hit-and-run strategy. Redundant usernames FTW Go home Damage Indicator, you're drunk Good, good... let the nanites flow through you
Yokal Bob Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 605	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:20:00 - [9] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? Would you prefer it to have a combo and a finisher to boot? If its not anime, its not real
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:26:00 - [10] - Quote Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you.

Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14979	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote I will say that I find it amusing how people complain about SLs not having to aim yet only 3 weapons in which actually require you to aim. I won't even bother writing essays at this point, but I will ask you one thing: If you were to find a 3 year old child and gave him even an Officer SL, do you honestly believe s/he could destroy my tank? If so, how much ISK are you willing to bet? 100mil? 250mil? 350mil? 500mil? 1bil? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1427	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Obligatory try it for yourself post Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1427	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:28:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: I will say that I find it amusing how people complain about SLs not having to aim yet only 3 weapons in which actually require you to aim. I won't even bother writing essays at this point, but I will ask you one thing: If you were to find a 3 year old child and gave him even an Officer SL, do you honestly believe s/he could destroy my tank? If so, how much ISK are you willing to bet? 100mil? 250mil? 350mil? 500mil? 1bil? Have you ever heard of a hyperbole? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14981	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:30:00 - [14] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Have you ever heard of a hyperbole? No, I have never heard of a hyberbole before. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1427	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:31:00 - [15] - Quote Atiim wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Have you ever heard of a hyperbole? No, I have never heard of a hyberbole before. Y u make tings so hard Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1256	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:31:00 - [16] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Is this the kind of answers we are getting from swarmers? these prove my point that even a brainless **** can properly use a swarm. Atiim wrote:** I will say that I find it amusing how people complain about SLs not having to aim yet only 3 weapons in which actually require you to aim. I won't even bother writing essays at this point, but I must ask one thing: If you were to find a 3 year old child and gave him even an Officer SL, do you honestly believe s/he could destroy my tank? If so, how much ISK are you willing to bet? 100mil? 250mil? 350mil? 500mil? 1bil? I was mostly speaking about dropships, not tanks. If you want to explain your points I'll gladly listen to you. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 451	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:32:00 - [17] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. -_- Pleez... Vehicle: -Watch out for red installations -Hear a swarm (or just get hit by the silent invisible ones)- get to good cover (can't effectively fight back) -Shield booster, hardener, afterburner, nitro injector activation -Vehicles also need proper positioning (ie. cover) Swarmer: -Proper positioning -Getting ganked by infantry (so does all other infantry) -Timing of swarms I don't get it. A swarmer complains that they get killed by infantry, even though willingly doing it just to kill a tank that really can only kill idiots standing still or people that don't have cover (which can still be killed faster with a light weapon). Why is the hate for tanks so god damn high? If I don't pull out AV, 90% of the time nobody else will. My options are to either pull out AV and run the risk of getting killed by infantry, or stay in my current suit and get killed by the vehicle(s). Lol. Don't give me any of that "tanks can only kill idiots" bull. Have you ever gone up against a decent Madrugar, or even worse, a Gunnlogi? How about multiple types of vehicles? Swarms aren't nearly as effective as other types of AV when you're between a fustercluck of vehicles and infantry. Edit: Installations? Seriously? Rocks are more effective, and they can't be destroyed. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:38:00 - [18] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Obligatory try it for yourself post I fly an ADS....no complaints. Maybe OP is a bad pilot.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2124	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:40:00 - [19] - Quote If the complaint is that Swarms are only too effective when you compare them to Plasma Cannons, I think the right course of action would be to buff Plasma Cannons, rather than nerf Swarms. Why can't a Plasma Cannon deal upwards of 2000 Damage per shot? If an HAV is oblivious enough to let themselves get hit three times by a Plasma Cannon, they should die, IMO. Home at Last <3
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1428	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:41:00 - [20] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: If I don't pull out AV, 90% of the time nobody else will. My options are to either pull out AV and run the risk of getting killed by infantry, or stay in my current suit and get killed by the vehicle(s). Lol. Don't give me any of that "tanks can only kill idiots" bull. Have you ever gone up against a decent Madrugar, or even worse, a Gunnlogi? How about multiple types of vehicles? Swarms aren't nearly as effective as other types of AV when you're between a fustercluck of vehicles and infantry. If you say you're good at positioning, then how are you getting killed by tanks? Have you tried getting on a elevated surface? Because hills are pretty good cover. So are roofs believe it or not, at least from tanks. And if you are getting killed by multiple vehicles, well you should be. Its like saying "i can't solo three or four guys easily with an AR," because, well, you weren't intended to. I only called people standing still idiots, because it's probably true. And, as I said, people out in the open should get wrecked by a tank, swarmer or not. Also, i'm glad to know that you know that you are sacrificing anti-infantry for AV, which is how it should be. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V

Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 452	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:42:00 - [21] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. I dont know if you are trolling or being serious anyway. 1 proper position: do you mean being able to stand still? Cause that's the proper position you need. 2 has to worry about getting ganked: you just need the incredible skill to stay near your friends. 3 while trying not to get killed by the pilot: land an hit on that pilot and he'll make a damn barrel roll, good luck to him on his try to aim you. What does the swarmer have to do? Press R1, stay near friends. What does the pilot have to do? Fly the damn dropship, find the swarmer between all the players, aim at you while flying, try to not crash into every wall or into the ground because of your missiles, maybe activate a couple of modules. Seems fine. Stand still.... Nice. Stand still while I'm taking possible fire from an ADS or an HAV. Do you even use swarms? The fact that you think MLT swarms are some type of super-weapon is leading me to believe otherwise. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:43:00 - [22] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Is this the kind of answers we are getting from swarmers? these prove my point that even a brainless **** can properly use a swarm. Atiim wrote:** I will say that I find it amusing how people complain about SLs not having to aim yet only 3 weapons in which actually require you to aim. I won't even bother writing essays at this point, but I must ask one thing: If you were to find a 3 year old child and gave him even an Officer SL, do you honestly believe s/he could destroy my tank? If so, how much ISK are you willing to bet? 100mil? 250mil? 350mil? 500mil? 1bil? I was mostly speaking about dropships, not tanks. If you want to explain your points I'll gladly listen to you. As I wrote above, I believe you are just a bad pilot.
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1428	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:45:00 - [23] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: If the complaint is that Swarms are only too effective when you compare them to Plasma Cannons, I think the right course of action would be to buff Plasma Cannons, rather than nerf Swarms. Why can't a Plasma Cannon deal upwards of 2000 Damage per shot? If an HAV is oblivious enough to let themselves get hit three times by a Plasma Cannon, they should die, IMO. No, I believe the complaint is that swarms are rediculously effective for the relative skill required to use them. The PLC needs no buff, as the nature of it requires you to be in close range, in which case if one is using it properly, one would likely carry AV nades and possibly REs or proxys. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 452	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:54:00 - [24] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: If I don't pull out AV, 90% of the time nobody else will. My options are to either pull out AV and run the risk of getting killed by infantry, or stay in my current suit and get killed by the vehicle(s). Lol. Don't give me any of that "tanks can only kill idiots" bull. Have you ever gone up against a decent Madrugar, or even worse, a Gunnlogi? How about multiple types of vehicles? Swarms aren't nearly as effective as other types of AV when you're between a fustercluck of vehicles and infantry. If you say you're good at positioning, then how are you getting killed by tanks? Have you tried getting on a elevated surface? Because hills are pretty good cover. So are roofs believe it or not, at least from tanks. And if you are getting killed by multiple vehicles, well you should be. Its like saying "i can't solo three or four guys easily with an AR," because, well, you weren't intended to. I only called people standing still idiots, because it's probably true. And, as I said, people out in the open should get wrecked by a tank, swarmer or not. Also, i'm glad to know that you know that you are sacrificing anti-infantry for AV, which is how it should be. It's kind of hard to find a hill or an elevated position in a city, which is where most vehicles will be found. Camping one area with swarms is a terrible tactic. All it takes is for the vehicle to get out of my 175m of range, which is relatively easy btw, and I become useless while Mr. L33t pilot can proceed with his slaughter. Movement is key in a V vs AV battle. As I've stated before, If you aren't out in an open field, swarms are easy to avoid. Turn a corner and watch as the missles smash into a building. Also, I rarely get killed by tanks. 1.7 made me an expert tank dodger Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
H0riz0n Unlimit Dead Man's Game 310	Posted - 2015.01.10 19:57:00 - [25] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? WEelcome to vehicle world The KTM DuKe lives here, send a message after the "beep".One of the few vehiculist remained in dust 514
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1429	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:01:00 - [26] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: It's kind of hard to find a hill or an elevated position in a city, which is where most vehicles will be found. Camping one area with swarms is a terrible tactic. All it takes is for the vehicle to get out of my 175m of range, which is relatively easy btw, and I become useless while Mr. L33t pilot can proceed with his slaughter. Movement is key in a V vs AV battle. As I've stated before, If you aren't out in an open field, swarms are easy to avoid. Turn a corner and watch as the missles smash into a building. Also, I rarely get killed by tanks. 1.7 made me an expert tank dodger In those cases, then, swarms should not be used. AV at that point should then switch over to PLCs, giving them decent Anti-infantry capability wile retaining AV capability. But heck, who am I to say that AV needs to switch fits to best reflect the situation at hand, or dare say that AV must use a weapon that uses skill. Also, how much of a slaughter does Mr. 1337 actually do? 10-1, ending the match with 500-600 WP? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Stupid Blueberry Hyasyoda Terrestrial Acquisitions Firm 849	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:07:00 - [27] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Have you tried it? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Haajakin Kalen.
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:20:00 - [28] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Have you tried it? As I posted above, yes I fly an ADS and have no complaints and I also use swarms sometimes and also have no complaints. I think some people just think they should be able to do whatever they want and not die. Then when they die....of course it has nothing to do with any possible errors on their part, assume that whatever killed them is over powered. This is very common on these forums. QQ
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1256	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:20:00 - [29] - Quote I have never said I'm a great pilot, I'm an infantry man, but: 1 I'm sure I am more skilled in pyloting than 90% of the swarmers that take me down are at AVing 2 Swarms are way too effective for the relative skill required to use them. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1429	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:22:00 - [30] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: I have never said I'm a great pilot, I'm an infantry man, but: 1 I'm sure I am more skilled in pyloting than 90% of the swarmers that take me down are at AVing 2 Swarms are way too effective for the relative skill required to use them. Yay Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V

DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:22:00 - [31] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: I have never said I'm a great pilot, I'm an infantry man, but: 1 I'm sure I am more skilled in pyloting than 90% of the swarmers that take me down are at AVing 2 Swarms are way too effective for the relative skill required to use them. That is your opinion and I disagree.
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 4303	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:23:00 - [32] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? Fix the auto target and guess what you fix some of the afking too! Oh brilliant, yeah I'm smart you all suck my nipples. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:25:00 - [33] - Quote also there is no Y in pilot.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14982	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:27:00 - [34] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: I was mostly speaking about dropships, not tanks. If you want to explain your points I'll gladly listen to you. Thank you. You say that it takes no skill to operate Swarm Launchers because of it's locking capabilities, but that means very little. Even though you have the lock, if you want to begin an engagement you still have to: 1. Locate Hostile Vehicle 2. Calculate Probability of Winning. That's no different than the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, or heck even JLAVs. Now when it comes to an engagements against Pilots you need to do the following: 4. Find Cover 5. Evade Pilot's Fire 6. Assess all possible escape routes 7. Predict where the Pilot will go (ie, around a corner). Still no different than the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, or JLAV. I know someone's going to say "hurr durr you forgot to put "Aim" there buddy" so I'll address that. The only difference having to aim makes in an engagement is the fact that there's a probability of missing your shots, which increases your TTK. Yet with the Swarm Launcher one of the shots will always miss because as long as you can resist the urges to consume potato chips and soft drinks and have a reaction time hire than a mental patient (1), you'll always be able to react in time to escape the 4th volley, which is what will kill the Pilot (2). Then we move onto the last part of the engagement, which is what happens when the Pilot decides to exit their vehicle before being destroyed, to avoid death and kill the AVer (3). 8. Swamp to Secondary Weapon 9. Combat the Pilot (4) Can you point out any differences between what I listed and V/AV engagements with other AV weapons?. If not, than when you say SLs require no skill you mean AV as a whole requires no skill, in which case I have another essay to write. --- (1) Average Human Reaction Time is .215s while Average Vehicle TTK is 7s. DSs move at 50m/s, which means you have to be 16x as slow to not evade the 175m radius in time to escape volley 4. (2) 3 Volleys for Base Vehicles, but 5+ for fitted Gunnlogies. (3), (4) Optional and does not happen on each engagement/ Anything I missed? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 453	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:28:00 - [35] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: It's kind of hard to find a hill or an elevated position in a city, which is where most vehicles will be found. Camping one area with swarms is a terrible tactic. All it takes is for the vehicle to get out of my 175m of range, which is relatively easy btw, and I become useless while Mr. L33t pilot can proceed with his slaughter. Movement is key in a V vs AV battle. As I've stated before, If you aren't out in an open field, swarms are easy to avoid. Turn a corner and watch as the missles smash into a building. Also, I rarely get killed by tanks. 1.7 made me an expert tank dodger In those cases, then, swarms should not be used. AV at that point should then switch over to PLCs, giving them decent Anti-infantry capability wile retaining AV capability. But heck, who am I to say that AV needs to switch fits to best reflect the situation at hand, or dare say that AV must use a weapon that uses skill. Also, how much of a slaughter does Mr. 1337 actually do? 10-1, ending the match with 500-600 WP? Mr. 1337's level of slaughter is relative to his skill as a pilot. So it's fine to use FGs and PLCs and other AV in the city, because they take "skill", but swarms shouldn't be used? How fair. The FG also outclasses it out in the open. Have you dedicated yourself to using swarms? It's not a cakewalk, on the contrary to popular belief. Swarms have been nerfed repeatedly, and yet pilots still complain. I give you a valid weakness of the SL, and your answer is "pull out a PLC". How does that empower the SL? It doesn't. My only option is to completely stop using it even though it's never been stated anywhere that SLs aren't supposed to be used in contested areas. God forbid I try to use an AV weapon for AV Swarms are only truly deadly when damage modded on a PRO Min Commando. Until the day comes that the Min Commando becomes FoTM, any complaints about Swarms are complete ***. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum*!
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1256	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:28:00 - [36] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: also there is no Y in pilot. Holy **** man can you post 1 thing that is related to the thread? You are here to say 1 you suck 2 I m a pro pilot 3 I disagree but cant prove my points 4 english is not your first language so you are wrong. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:29:00 - [37] - Quote uhhhh... you asked if you suck. My answer is YES.
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3647	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:35:00 - [38] - Quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w Situational awareness also known as passive scan.
pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1256	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:40:00 - [39] - Quote Atiim wrote: 1. Locate Hostile Vehicle 2. Calculate Probability of Winning.[/b] That's no different than the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, or heck even JLAVs. Now when it comes to an engagements against Pilots you need to do the following: 4. Find Cover 5. Evade Pilot's Fire 6. Assess all possible escape routes 7. Predict where the Pilot will go (ie, around a corner). 1 yes, It is not so hard to locate a dropship flying in the sky, for sure it is harder to locate who has a SL while you are flying. 2 I'm sure 99% of the players with a SL dont calculate a ****, they just press R1 and see the weapon doing their job. 3 not found 4 5 6 if you are the first to hit (and with a SL you are likely to hit first) you are creating Big troubles in the ability of the pilot to aim. 7 is that so hard? What I want to say is: I'm not talking about competitive levels but, between two average players the swarmer is likely to win because is weapon requires way less skill than using and shooting with an ADS. When you have to be above average to fight your counterpart that is average or worse, things are not balanced One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1429	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:45:00 - [40] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: Mr. 1337's level of slaughter is relative to his skill as a pilot. So it's fine to use FGs and PLCs and other AV in the city, because they take "skill", but swarms shouldn't be used? How fair. The FG also outclasses it out in the open. Have you dedicated yourself to using swarms? It's not a cakewalk, on the contrary to popular belief. Swarms have been nerfed repeatedly, and yet pilots still complain. I give you a valid weakness of the SL, and your answer is "pull out a PLC". How does that empower the SL? It doesn't. My only option is to completely stop using it even though it's never been stated anywhere that SLs aren't supposed to be used in contested areas. God forbid I try to use an AV weapon for AV Swarms are only truly deadly when damage modded on a PRO Min Commando. Until the day comes that the Min Commando becomes FoTM, any complaints about Swarms are complete ***. Just to make myself clear, I never said that swarms were OP, just overly effective for the skill used to operate them. As a "dedicated AVer," I would think one's strategy would be more than just shoot away with one type of weapon the entire match. After all, for shield tanks, one should use a Plasma Cannon, in an engagement that is in a city, one should use something more effective for the situation (proxies, remotes, AV nades, PLC). And yes, my answer should be if the swarm is weak in one respect use something that is more suited to the situation at hand. Thus, my answer should be the PLC. It's never been stated that SLs can't be used in contested areas because it is possible, just not viable. You said it yourself. This isn't just about the SL, it's about the fact that in 90% of all engagements, swarm launchers are used instead of PLC or Forge. Why is it? Maybe it is more effective than the other options? Maybe it's easy to use? A combo??? I don't get why AV is so focused on the Swarm Launcher, and keeping that viable. Swarm Launcher nerf? Shiii, better keep the SL alive because it is the only easy, effective way to counter vehicles. One does not see, however, that there are other AV options. Official QuafeGäó Advocate* Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V

LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1431	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:54:00 - [41] - Quote shaman oga wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w Really interesting. Sooo... What should I get out of it? Swarms are good right now because they give a simple solution, and Forge and PLC should be buffed? Or swarms should be nerfed because they're easy and effective? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.01.10 20:55:00 - [42] - Quote Hey everybody! Why can't I just fly around in my dropship unchallenged while slaughtering infantry? This game is broken! Swarms were useless for a long time and now that they have a little bite back ADS pilots QQ about having to be cautious of their surroundings. I'm sorry Origonal Poster but I have no sympathy for you and do not regard your complaint as valid, so I will not be arguing statistical balancing points with you. Plus you are the one that decide to start a QQ thread and asked if anyone thinks this problem you are having is related to you "sucking". Well sir, my opinion is that the issue is more about your "suck" factor than the individual skill required by a swarm user.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 236	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:08:00 - [43] - Quote Atiim wrote: The only difference having to aim makes in an engagement is the fact that there's a probability of missing your shots, which increases your TTK. Yet with the Swarm Launcher one of the shots will always miss because as long as you can resist the urges to consume potato chips and soft drinks and have a reaction time hire than a mental patient (1), you'll always be able to react in time to escape the 4th volley, which is what will kill the Pilot (2). There is only 1 course of action against a swarmer - run away (from an ADS perspective) because by the time you've located where they are, they have enough time to get that 4th shot off before you can get out of 175m range a forge/PLCs have correct hit detection markers, so you know where the shot is coming from, and can fly evasively whilst you try and locate them and have a 1v1
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 459	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:09:00 - [44] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: Mr. 1337's level of slaughter is relative to his skill as a pilot. So it's fine to use FGs and PLCs and other AV in the city, because they take "skill", but swarms shouldn't be used? How fair. The FG also outclasses it out in the open. Have you dedicated yourself to using swarms? It's not a cakewalk, on the contrary to popular belief. Swarms have been nerfed repeatedly, and yet pilots still complain. I give you a valid weakness of the SL, and your answer is "pull out a PLC". How does that empower the SL? It doesn't. My only option is to completely stop using it even though it's never been stated anywhere that SLs aren't supposed to be used in contested areas. God forbid I try to use an AV weapon for AV Swarms are only truly deadly when damage modded on a PRO Min Commando. Until the day comes that the Min Commando becomes FoTM, any complaints about Swarms are complete ***. Just to make myself clear, I never said that swarms were OP, just overly effective for the skill used to operate them. As a "dedicated AVer," I would think one's strategy would be more than just shoot away with one type of weapon the entire match. After all, for shield tanks, one should use a Plasma Cannon, in an engagement that is in a city, one should use something more effective for the situation (proxies, remotes, AV nades, PLC). And yes, my answer should be if the swarm is weak in one respect use something that is more suited to the situation at hand. Thus, my answer should be the PLC. It's never been stated that SLs can't be used in contested areas because it is possible, just not viable. You said it yourself. This isn't just about the SL, it's about the fact that in 90% of all engagements, swarm launchers are used instead of PLC or Forge. Why is it? Maybe it is more effective than the other options? Maybe it's easy to use? A combo??? I don't get why AV is so focused on the Swarm Launcher, and keeping that viable. Swarm Launcher nerf? Shiii, better keep the SL alive because it is the only easy, effective way to counter vehicles. One does not see, however, that there are other AV options. The popular belief is that SLs take much less skill because they lack one of the requirements of the other AV weapons, which is decent aim. The SL may not require aim per se, but it has tons of other skillfull requirements in order to properly destroy other vehicles. I rarely see Swarms that aren't PRO tier, yet I see FGs of all types. Starter fit SLs are a non factor. Swarms are most commonly used due to 1. New players are introduced to them first with the Anti-Armor fit. As useless as it is for higher tiered vehicles, it's still somewhat useful against LAVs and such. 2. Swarms can be fit on a wider variety of suits. Think: why properly spec into a heavy suit and have to lug around a Forge gun when you can fit your Wyrkomi swarms on a med or light frame and go to work? It's less effective, but it's fine for chasing away that pesky ADS or HAV. Swarms don't even have the killing power of other types of AV. Who would you like to have on your side? Two PRO forge gunners, or two PRO SL users? Ehh knowing you, you would rather have two PLCers. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum*!
Shaco Mordekaiser Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:13:00 - [45] - Quote I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the OP and say that Militia Swarm Launchers are too good for the skill required. I would say basic swarms would also be too good for the amount of skill required, and advanced and proto swarms are excluded from the argument. You have to dedicate time and skill points (to some degree), as well as a little more ISK in order to use them. For those you deserve to get pretty good damage output for what you put in, and if you're a dumb enough pilot to repeatedly engage them then you probably deserve to die. That being said, if I'm flying an ADS and someone decides to pull out Militia Swams and engage me, I now have a very large problem, especially if the game glitches out and the swarms coming at me are invisible, or if two or three people have the idea together. They don't do a large amount of damage per volly, but they do have a large impact on my ability to fly and even more so on my ability to aim; I'm now suddenly pointed a different direction and potentially taking damage from a source I haven't even located yet. Now if I start flying away from the area, I'm almost guaranteed a second volley, and if they manage to lock a third one before I'm out of range then I'm in trouble. After all that happens, I don't even really have the option to engage again, because now they're watching for me, the moment I fly back over to where the swarms are, the volleys with come in larger numbers and I will die without even getting the chance to aim at someone. Keep in mind this argument really only stands for beginner and maybe some of the lower teir intermediate players. It would be dumb to argue that an experienced pilot with a decked out ADS will have any issue with militia swarms, but then we're not talking about Mr. 1337 here. At the same time, Mr. 1337 should really be paired up with people that are more on par with his skill level, and if people his skill level are trying to take him down with Militia Swarms, then they probably deserve to die at his hands until someone brings out some better AV.
Union118 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:17:00 - [46] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? Its you and only you. Swarms are fine. You suck. Starter Fit Suits are OP :-)
Shaco Mordekaiser Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:19:00 - [47] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Hey everybody! Why can't I just fly around in my dropship unchallenged while slaughtering infantry? This game is broken! Swarms were useless for a long time and now that they have a little bite back ADS pilots QQ about having to be cautious of their surroundings. I'm sorry Origonal Poster but I have no sympathy for you and do not regard your complaint as valid, so I will not be arguing statistical balancing points with you. Plus you are the one that decide to start a QQ thread and asked if anyone thinks this problem you are having is related to you "sucking". Well sir, my opinion is that the issue is more about your "suck" factor than the individual skill required by a swarm user. Dude go away. You're following this thread literally for the purpose of antagonizing the OP and shouting "QQ you're bad". If you're going to be active in the community, why not try being constructive and intelligent, rather than just a raging ****?
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2369	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:21:00 - [48] - Quote Do away with lock range, increase flight time slightly and make the missile swarm player guided but AV only damage (no damage to infantry), would that make you happy? Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1432	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:21:00 - [49] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The popular belief is that SLs take much less skill because they lack one of the requirements of the other AV weapons, which is decent aim. The SL may not require aim per se, but it has tons of other skillfull requirements in order to properly destroy other vehicles. I rarely see Swarms that aren't PRO tier, yet I see FGs of all types. Starter fit SLs are a non factor. Swarms are most commonly used due to 1. New players are introduced to them first with the Anti-Armor fit. As useless as it is for higher tiered vehicles, it's still somewhat useful against LAVs and such. 2. Swarms can be fit on a wider variety of suits. Think: why properly spec into a heavy suit and have to lug around a Forge gun when you can fit your Wyrkomi swarms on a med or light frame and go to work? It's less effective, but it's fine for chasing away that pesky ADS or HAV. Swarms don't even have the killing power of other types of AV. Who would you like to have on your side? Two PRO forge gunners, or two PRO SL users? Ehh knowing you, you would rather have two PLCers. Pssh... Do you think the other forms of AV don't require these skills? Add Aiming while using these skills and the other skills are much harder. As for #2, if you can fit the SL onto a wider variety of suits, and you claim this is why the SL is more effective, than why isn't the PLC used at least sometimes against HAVs, even if it's a shield based one? Oh yeah, because swarms are more effective due to aiming not being needed, with no particular drawbacks. As for your last point, what if the 2 SL users had a commando suit? And also, it wouldn't matter, as the tank or dropship would be dead anyway. However, I would choose the swarms as with the forges, I run the risk of one of them missing the vehicle. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3484	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:24:00 - [50] - Quote The skill in swarming revolves around surviving long enough to kill the vehicles, as well as time your swarms and make sure they don't hit buildings. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1626	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:27:00 - [51] - Quote What I found to be ridiculous was Uprising 1.7. Pray tell, if tanks are sooo bad and swarms are sooo good, how is it that Milkman and Addict Punk manage to stomp Ambush after Ambush with them?
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3648	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:27:00 - [52] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: shaman oga wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w Really interesting. Sooo... What should I get out of it? Swarms are good right now because they give a simple solution, and Forge and PLC should be buffed? Or swarms should be nerfed because they're easy and effective? Noob tube is needed, but both forge and PLC are in a good spot right now imo. So keep swarms easy to use and nerf them so people need more than 1 swarm to be deadly but one is enough to scare a vehicle. Situational awareness also known as passive scan.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2369	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:27:00 - [53] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: As for your last point, what if the 2 SL users had a commando suit? And also, it wouldn't matter, as the tank or dropship would be dead anyway. However, I would choose the swarms as with the forges, I run the risk of one of them missing the vehicle. With the swarms you run the risk of the missiles running into buildings. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1432	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:28:00 - [54] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The skill in swarming revolves around surviving long enough to kill the vehicles, as well as time your swarms and make sure they don't hit buildings. Again, do you think swarms are the only one with this problem? Do you think it is easier to be a swarmer or a Canoneer? Forge gunner? Swarm launchers take the least amount of skill of all the AV weapons, yet they are still better at AV than those other alternatives. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1432	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:30:00 - [55] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: What I found to be ridiculous was Uprising 1.7. Pray tell, if tanks are sooo bad and swarms are sooo good, how is it that Milkman and Addict Punk continue to stomp Ambush after Ambush with them? Pubs... and Ambush. There is no time in ambush to get organised against tanks, or even find a decent spot without being killed first. Action is just too fast paced. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
emm kay G0DS AM0NG MEN 235	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:31:00 - [56] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: The problem with that weapon is that it is too effective for the skill it needs. I mean personal skill, I dont mean SP investment. I could give the DS3 to a 3 yeas old idiot and he could be a great swarmer, you only need to have one working hand. While being way too easy to be used it is very rewarding, even the militia Swarm launcher can make a Python run away in fear. I'm not talking about the greatest pylots of the game obviously, I'm sure snugglz or derrith or the other great pylots don't have all these problems but a normal pylot gets his ass destroyed by every idiot embracing a militia swarm launcher. The problem is the personal skill required. At the same level of skill the swarmer will destroy the poor pylot without any effort. Being so easy the swarm launcher should be way less efficient. I dont have problems with FG or rail tanks or plasma cannons, they require a little bit of skill to be used so there is a fair fight between the pylot and the other guy. The swarmer only need to be able to press R1. Is it just me sucking? it's not swarms, it's the vehicle. There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 460	Posted - 2015.01.10 21:45:00 - [57] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The popular belief is that SLs take much less skill because they lack one of the requirements of the other AV weapons, which is decent aim. The SL may not require aim per se, but it has tons of other skillfull requirements in order to properly destroy other vehicles. I rarely see Swarms that aren't PRO tier, yet I see FGs of all types. Starter fit SLs are a non factor. Swarms are most commonly used due to 1. New players are introduced to them first with the Anti-Armor fit. As useless as it is for higher tiered vehicles, it's still somewhat useful against LAVs and such. 2. Swarms can be fit on a wider variety of suits. Think: why properly spec into a heavy suit and have to lug around a Forge gun when you can fit your Wyrkomi swarms on a med or light frame and go to work? It's less effective, but it's fine for chasing away that pesky ADS or HAV. Swarms don't even have the killing power of other types of AV. Who would you like to have on your side? Two PRO forge gunners, or two PRO SL users? Ehh knowing you, you would rather have two PLCers. Pssh... Do you think the other forms of AV don't require these skills? Add Aiming while using these skills and the other skills are much harder. As for #2, if you can fit the SL onto a wider variety of suits, and you claim this is why the SL is more effective, than why isn't the PLC used at least sometimes against HAVs, even if it's a shield based one? Oh yeah, because swarms are more effective due to aiming not being needed, with no particular drawbacks. As for your last point, what if the 2 SL users had a commando suit? And also, it wouldn't matter, as the tank or dropship would be dead anyway. However, I would choose the swarms as with the forges, I run the risk of one of them missing the vehicle. You also run the risk of the vehicle escaping you're 175m of range, whereas the Forge gunners are good up to 300m. You also run the risk of your missiles running into terrain, which is equivalent to missing. The missiles are also much slower than a FG shot, increasing the odds of your pray escaping. Swarms on a Min Commando are a completely different story. Actually, it's the only way to use SLs to their full potential. How is this in any way lacking of skill? And have you forgotten that PLCs get a damage buff on Gal Commandos? They aren't overshadowed by SLs. They are much more effective towards shield vehicles, along with the fact that they have a more balanced damage profile. I guess people aren't as open to them because they were a laughing stock for a year. Did you use them before the buff? Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 462	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:04:00 - [58] - Quote Atiim wrote: I will say that I find it amusing how people complain about SLs not having to aim yet only 3 weapons in which actually require you to aim. I won't even bother writing essays at this point, but I must ask one thing: If you were to find a 3 year old child and gave him even an Officer SL, do you honestly believe s/he could destroy my tank? If so, how much ISK are you willing to bet? 100mil? 250mil? 350mil? 500mil? 1bil? My three year old nephew might already communicate in a foreign language, uses iPad without difficulty, and he is pretty good skis rider.. I have not tried to give him a DS3 to hand, but it seems to me that it would not be big problem for him. IMO Swarms kills everything that somehow makes mistake, and allow swarmer to finish job. In other words this weapon do not require any magnificent skills to operate it and being successful with it, all depend on victim decision - if he gone hit some obstacles and stuck - he will die sooner or later. No matter how much swarm-club protect this weapon on forum, it always remain in 'designed to by used by complete noob's' niche. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2369	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:07:00 - [59] - Quote I remember when my 7 year old tried playing the PS3 when he was three. The major problem was his hands were too small to properly manipulate the controller. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1627	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:13:00 - [60] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: What I found to be ridiculous was Uprising 1.7. Pray tell, if tanks are sooo bad and swarms are sooo good, how is it that Milkman and Addict Punk continue to stomp Ambush after Ambush with them? Pubs... and Ambush. There is no time in ambush to get organised against tanks, or even find a decent spot without being killed first. Action is just too fast paced. Even so, if an opponent knows the tanks are coming -- and they always do -- you'd think they could spawn in start-of-match with their "ridiculously overpowered" swarms and hold their ground against two tanks. And yet. When we think about balance, we must take into account present performance of competent and tactically minded pilots. These are examples of pilots "who do it right" and in doing it right, manage to streamroll match after match at little-to-no-risk. What happens to the pilots who "do it right" if we balance V/AV to the benefit those who "do it wrong"?

DRAKEST HOUR Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 8	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:16:00 - [61] - Quote Shaco Mordekaiser wrote: DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Hey everybody! Why can't I just fly around in my dropship unchallenged while slaughtering infantry? This game is broken! Swarms were useless for a long time and now that they have a little bite back ADS pilots QQ about having to be cautious of their surroundings. I'm sorry Origonal Poster but I have no sympathy for you and do not regard your complaint as valid, so I will not be arguing statistical balancing points with you. Plus you are the one that decide to start a QQ thread and asked if anyone thinks this problem you are having is related to you "sucking". Well sir, my opinion is that the issue is more about your "suck" factor than the individual skill required by a swarm user. Dude go away. You're following this thread literally for the purpose of antagonizing the OP and shouting "QQ you're bad". If you're going to be active in the community, why not try being constructive and intelligent, rather than just a raging ****? OP asked for opinions and that's what is happening. Don't be mad bra...need a hug?
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1435	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:17:00 - [62] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: You also run the risk of the vehicle escaping you're 175m of range, whereas the Forge gunners are good up to 300m. You also run the risk of your missiles running into terrain, which is equivalent to missing. The missiles are also much slower than a FG shot, increasing the odds of your pray escaping. Swarms on a Min Commando are a completely different story. Actually, it's the only way to use SLs to their full potential. How is this in any way lacking of skill? And have you forgotten that PLCs get a damage buff on Gal Commandos? They aren't overshadowed by SLs. They are much more effective towards shield vehicles, along with the fact that they have a more balanced damage profile. I guess people aren't as open to them because they were a laughing stock for a year. Did you use them before the buff? Edit: Nevermind. PLCs don't get that damage buff. I was under the impression that it did. Swarms only lock on at 175 meters. However, once the swarms are away, how far do you think the swarms go? 400-500 meters? How many salvos can you get off before the vehicle notices? Also, with forges, not only do you have to aim, you have to aim at where you think the vehicle will be in the time it takes for the shot to travel. It's called leading, something swarmers don't have to worry about. Also, if you don't think PLCs are overshadowed, tell me the last time you saw one actively engaging in competitive gameplay against vehicles. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1435	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:22:00 - [63] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Even so, if an opponent knows the tanks are coming -- and they always do -- you'd think they could spawn in start-of-match with their "ridiculously overpowered" swarms and hold their ground against two tanks. And yet. In discussing balance, we must take into account present performance of the competent and tactically minded pilot. Above are examples of pilots "who do it right" and in doing it right, manage to shrug off AV and streamroll match after match at little-to-no-risk. What happens to the pilots who "do it right" if we balance V/AV around those who "do it wrong"? Its not all about competency, a competent pilot in a tank or dropship with standard modules can't fight back. There's a huge gap in module efficiency from standard to advanced. You have to have at least Enhanced modules to escape swarmers/forges and at least Prototype to engage them, whereas AV can engage vehicles and still make them run with any tier. Also, try not to pull words out of your ass... I never said they were rediculously overpowered or could solo two tanks simultaneously. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 236	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:27:00 - [64] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: What I found to be ridiculous was Uprising 1.7. Pray tell, if tanks are sooo bad and swarms sooo good, how is it that Milkman and Addict Punk continue to stomp Ambush after Ambush with them? because they're in proto squads, tanks are just the icing on the cake
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 462	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:29:00 - [65] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I remember when my 7 year old tried playing the PS3 when he was three. The major problem was his hands were too small to properly manipulate the controller. Yes they have small hands, but to kill something with SL all they need it to aim with stick, and then hold one button(repeat it several times). Swarms are boring for both sides, and I'm sure nothing will change in way how they work in this year . There is no f* way that someone from CCP would try to make Swarms entertainment again in this year. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Timtron Victory Horizons' Edge 234	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:38:00 - [66] - Quote I dont even use them anymore. While I try to lock on, I get killed by a scout. No point anymore haha. Flux a Gunlogi twice and it flees, why bother with swarms? Remote a Maddie with two remotes and he flees, so why use swarms? Oh before I forget nova knives can kill tanks too, and it does more damage Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can kill me. Proud Christian Jesus Loves You
Zindorak Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 1620	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:42:00 - [67] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Uhh oh, you asked for it. The whole community is gonna come here and throw sh*t in your face. You can't just come her and ask to nerf I win buttons for infantry man!! They'll nerf your vehicles!! Yea pretty much Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1629	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:48:00 - [68] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Even so, if an opponent knows the tanks are coming -- and they always do -- you'd think they could spawn in start-of-match with their "ridiculously overpowered" swarms and hold their ground against two tanks. And yet. In discussing balance, we must take into account present performance of the competent and tactically minded pilot. Above are examples of pilots "who do it right" and in doing it right, manage to shrug off AV and streamroll match after match at little-to-no-risk. What happens to the pilots who "do it right" if we balance V/AV around those who "do it wrong"? Its not all about competency, a competent pilot in a tank or dropship with standard modules can't fight back. There's a huge gap in module efficiency from standard to advanced. You have to have at least Enhanced modules to escape swarmers/forges and at least Prototype to engage them, whereas AV can engage vehicles and still make them run with any tier. Also, try not to pull words out of your ass... I never said they were rediculously overpowered or could solo two tanks simultaneously. Didn't intend to jab at you, Lugmos. The word "ridiculous" is in the title of this thread. If vehicle modules scale poorly, then we should address how vehicle modules scale. My point is that we cannot claim that blaster tanks are ineffective with evidence in-hand to the contrary, nor can we claim that swarms are winbuttons for precisely the same reason. Juno Tristan wrote: [they get to stomp risk-free] because they're in proto squads, tanks are just the icing on the cake Seems legit. Let's buff 'em.
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 460	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:49:00 - [69] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: You also run the risk of the vehicle escaping you're 175m of range, whereas the Forge gunners are good up to 300m. You also run the risk of your missiles running into terrain, which is equivalent to missing. The missiles are also much slower than a FG shot, increasing the odds of your pray escaping. Swarms on a Min Commando are a completely different story. Actually, it's the only way to use SLs to their full potential. How is this in any way lacking of skill? And have you forgotten that PLCs get a damage buff on Gal Commandos? They aren't overshadowed by SLs. They are much more effective towards shield vehicles, along with the fact that they have a more balanced damage profile. I guess people aren't as open to them because they were a laughing stock for a year. Did you use them before the buff? Edit: Nevermind. PLCs don't get that damage buff. I was under the impression that it did. Swarms only lock on at 175 meters. However, once the swarms are away, how far do you think the swarms go? 400-500 meters? How many salvos can you get off before the vehicle notices? Also, with forges, not only do you have to aim, you have to aim at where you think the vehicle will be in the time it takes for the shot to travel. It's called leading, something swarmers don't have to worry about. Also, if you don't think PLCs are overshadowed, tell me the last time you saw one actively engaging in competitive gameplay against vehicles. Travel range is 400m. Irrelevant to HAVs, thanks to the turn speed nerfs making it so that turning a corner causes your missiles to crash into the nearest building. ADS can activate afterburners, or fly to the flight ceiling. I don't get the kill, and he doesn't lose his ADS. At most, you'll get two salvos off against any pilot that isn't brain dead. After that, they zoom away. See, to be a successful Swarmer, you have to predict the path of your missiles in order to minimize the chance of losing salvos to a wall. It's different from leading, yet it doesn't take less skill. Mashing the R1 button and releasing every volley in short order doesn't work on decent people. Lack of use compared to other weapons Gëá being underpowered or overshadowed. The fact that the ScR is probably the least used rifle doesn't mean the other rifles overshadow it. It has its pros and cons, and it succeeds where other rifles have a tough time, just like the PLC and the SL. As I said before, the PLC was a joke for over a year. People aren't quick to spend SP on a weapon with such a reputation. Also, anecdotal evidence hardly suffices as real evidence. I could easily tell you about the times when my SL failed to kill a vehicle regardless of how much I prepped, but does it get me anywhere? No. It makes me look narcissistic talking about my own experiences without any actual facts. Me this, me that. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14988	Posted - 2015.01.10 22:56:00 - [70] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: 1 yes, It is not so hard to locate a dropship flying in the sky, for sure it is harder to locate who has a SL while you are flying. 2 I'm sure 99% of the players with a SL don't calculate a ****, they just press R1 and see the weapon doing their job. 3 not found 4 5 6 if you are the first to hit (and with a SL you are likely to hit first) you are creating Big troubles in the ability of the pilot to aim. 7 is that so hard? What I want to say is: I'm not talking about competitive levels but, between two average players the swarmer is likely to win because is weapon requires way less skill than using and shooting with an ADS. When you have to be above average to fight your counterpart that is average or worse, things are not balanced 1. Perceived difficulty is irrelevant, still a skill and a perquisite. 2. Only Pressing R1 and firing is the best way to guarantee that you hit the wall instead of the Pilot. As for what 99% (which is a falsified figure) do, see above. 3. Fixed 4. See Point #1 5. See Point #2 6. See Point #2 7. Depends on the Pilot; Also See Point #1 Given how all of the same points listed are perquisites to destroy vehicles with FGs and PLCs, would it be safe to conclude that you believe it "takes no skill" to destroy vehicles with a Forge Gun or Plasma Cannon? Between average players, the Vehicle has a heavy advantage as AV weapons (as far as SLs and PLCs are concerned) are terrible until Operation V & Proficiency III which average players don't have, while most Modules yield the same benefit across every tier, allowing even a minimally invested player to be effective against low-mid tier AV. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 298	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:02:00 - [71] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. I dont know if you are trolling or being serious anyway. 1 proper position: do you mean being able to stand still? Cause that's the proper position you need. 2 has to worry about getting ganked: you just need the incredible skill to stay near your friends. 3 while trying not to get killed by the pilot: land an hit on that pilot and he'll make a damn barrel roll, good luck to him on his try to aim you. What does the swarmer have to do? Press R1, stay near friends. What does the pilot have to do? Fly the damn dropship, find the swarmer between all the players, aim at you while flying, try to not crash into every wall or into the ground because of your missiles, maybe activate a couple of modules. Seems fine. 1. Standing still vs. a vehicle is suicide, and even if there wasnt a vehicle standing still would be ******** with all the snipers and other infantry cruising around. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 2. Staying near your friends is not a guarantee that you wont get wrecked in this game. Shooting a swarm launcher is like firing a flare into the sky that bursts into the words "please come put bullets in me", the second you shoot any infantry in the area is going to aquire you by sound, then by sight, then start shooting. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 3. Ive never seen a tank do a barrel roll, and dropships do not get knocked around enough to prevent them from killing a swarmer unless the swarmer was going to win anyway (i.e. You have a crappy fitting and he has a very good one and you are too stupid to run away). Meanwhile what do you have to do to kill infantry? Just learn not to crash and you can float around killing them at your leisure. Until AV comes around to stop you. Its the circle of life.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 236	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:06:00 - [72] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Let's buff 'em and make their stomping even easier. I think you're missing the point, OP is saying swarms are too easy to use based on their damage, not that they damage too much
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6290	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:10:00 - [73] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Why is the hate for tanks so god damn high? Believe it or not? The hate for tanks has nothing to do with how powerful they are on the battlefield. It has everything to do with these forums. past that it's a really loaded question. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1438	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:17:00 - [74] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: Edit: You never answered my question. Did you use PLCs before the buff? Sure I did. Why? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 466	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:29:00 - [75] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: Edit: You never answered my question. Did you use PLCs before the buff? Sure I did. Why? I'm glad. I'm sure you remember how terrible they were. Considering the majority of the playerbase doesn't visit the forums, I doubt they know it isn't laughable anymore. That and it's more expensive than a SL, especially at PRO tier. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2127	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:34:00 - [76] - Quote I'm getting a really bad impression that some people in this thread think Swarms take as much skill to use as Plasma Cannons or even Forge Guns. They don't. I'm not saying swarms don't take some skill, they do, but to imply that they takes as much as a Plasma Cannon is preposterous. Home at Last <3
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1259	Posted - 2015.01.10 23:37:00 - [77] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Let's buff 'em and make their stomping even easier. I think you're missing the point, OP is saying swarms are too easy to use based on their damage, not that they damage too much Thank god someone understands. If we use the formula Power/skill=number Number is very high cause Power is not bad at all and skill is very low. The same formula with the plasma Cannon or the FG give you a smaller "number" cause skill needed is higher. "Number" should be similare between these 3 weapons. Ps. When I say "skill" I mean personal skill, personal ability, not SP investment One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1500	Posted - 2015.01.11 03:15:00 - [78] - Quote DRAKEST HOUR wrote: LUGMOS wrote: DRAKEST HOUR wrote: Ya, because it takes so much skill to fly a dropship around all match and missile snipe infantry. It's a video game....play something else if you don't like it. Or just QQ on a forum.....if that is more fun for you. Obligatory try it for yourself post I fly an ADS....no complaints. Maybe OP is a bad pilot. You obviously don't fly an ADS. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1449	Posted - 2015.01.11 04:02:00 - [79] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: I'm getting a really bad impression that some people in this thread think Swarms take as much skill to use as Plasma Cannons or even Forge Guns. They don't. I'm not saying swarms don't take some skill, they do, but to imply that they takes as much as a Plasma Cannon is preposterous. ^ Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 3709	Posted - 2015.01.11 04:02:00 - [80] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. wow....so are you really implying that it takes more skill to use swarm launchers than ADS??? Is this the sort of player thinking that I'm up against every time that I post on the forums? Shield tanking is hard mode /period. > Check RND out here

LUGMOS Quafe Premium 1449	Posted - 2015.01.11 04:03:00 - [81] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: That and it's more expensive than a SL, especially at PRO tier. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure every weapon of equal meta level is the same price now... Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 3709	Posted - 2015.01.11 04:04:00 - [82] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. I dont know if you are trolling or being serious anyway. 1 proper position: do you mean being able to stand still? Cause that's the proper position you need. 2 has to worry about getting ganked: you just need the incredible skill to stay near your friends. 3 while trying not to get killed by the pilot: land an hit on that pilot and he'll make a damn barrel roll, good luck to him on his try to aim you. What does the swarmer have to do? Press R1, stay near friends. What does the pilot have to do? Fly the damn dropship, find the swarmer between all the players, aim at you while flying, try to not crash into every wall or into the ground because of your missiles, maybe activate a couple of modules. Seems fine. 1. Standing still vs. a vehicle is suicide, and even if there wasnt a vehicle standing still would be ******** with all the snipers and other infantry cruising around. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 2. Staying near your friends is not a guarantee that you wont get wrecked in this game. Shooting a swarm launcher is like firing a flare into the sky that bursts into the words "please come put bullets in me", the second you shoot any infantry in the area is going to aquire you by sound, then by sight, then start shooting. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 3. Ive never seen a tank do a barrel roll, and dropships do not get knocked around enough to prevent them from killing a swarmer unless the swarmer was going to win anyway (i.e. You have a crappy fitting and he has a very good one and you are too stupid to run away). Meanwhile what do you have to do to kill infantry? Just learn not to crash and you can float around killing them at your leisure. Until AV comes around to stop you. Its the circle of life. Do you tank or fly ADS? Shield tanking is hard mode /period. > Check RND out here
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2015.01.11 04:09:00 - [83] - Quote swarms do not take skill to fire, dropships take skill to fly, Everyone needs to think about their position so it is not worth discussing I would back a brand new player using swarms against some that had spent weeks flying an assault dropship, I would back a very drunk me with swarms against against a sober me with an assault dropship. I think this is how it should be, I want the game to be mainly about infantry
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1706	Posted - 2015.01.11 05:24:00 - [84] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Have you ever heard of a hyperbole? The way he uses this in a sentence makes me think he pronounces it "hyper-bowl". Go Here and vote! 1 like is 1 vote!
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1267	Posted - 2015.01.11 12:26:00 - [85] - Quote It looks like it is not just me... One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 300	Posted - 2015.01.11 18:59:00 - [86] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. I dont know if you are trolling or being serious anyway. 1 proper position: do you mean being able to stand still? Cause that's the proper position you need. 2 has to worry about getting ganked: you just need the incredible skill to stay near your friends. 3 while trying not to get killed by the pilot: land an hit on that pilot and he'll make a damn barrel roll, good luck to him on his try to aim you. What does the swarmer have to do? Press R1, stay near friends. What does the pilot have to do? Fly the damn dropship, find the swarmer between all the players, aim at you while flying, try to not crash into every wall or into the ground because of your missiles, maybe activate a couple of modules. Seems fine. 1. Standing still vs. a vehicle is suicide, and even if there wasnt a vehicle standing still would be ******** with all the snipers and other infantry cruising around. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 2. Staying near your friends is not a guarantee that you wont get wrecked in this game. Shooting a swarm launcher is like firing a flare into the sky that bursts into the words "please come put bullets in me", the second you shoot any infantry in the area is going to aquire you by sound, then by sight, then start shooting. You might not know what the hell you are talking about. 3. Ive never seen a tank do a barrel roll, and dropships do not get knocked around enough to prevent them from killing a swarmer unless the swarmer was going to win anyway (i.e. You have a crappy fitting and he has a very good one and you are too stupid to run away). Meanwhile what do you have to do to kill infantry? Just learn not to crash and you can float around killing them at your leisure. Until AV comes around to stop you. Its the circle of life. Do you tank or fly ADS? Yes to both
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 272	Posted - 2015.01.11 19:05:00 - [87] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. A player thinking two seconds about positioning has nothing to do with the ease of use of the weapon. Most any game I've got a swarmer and maybe an FGer sitting way over on a building or hill, sipping beer and one hand shooting their load. No surprise since it's all about soloing vehicles now. There is a reason something like AV should be a two man or more job or make the soloist work for the kill. ADS are way harder to deal with an AVer even after you learn to fly and shoot. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 475	Posted - 2015.01.11 19:09:00 - [88] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: That and it's more expensive than a SL, especially at PRO tier. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure every weapon of equal meta level is the same price now... Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher: 28,2845 ISK Allotek Plasma Cannon: 47,220 ISK Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!
Cheydinhal Guard Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 475	Posted - 2015.01.11 19:11:00 - [89] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: The swarmer also needs proper positioning, and he also has to worry about getting ganked by infantry, all while trying not to get killed by the pilot. What does the pilot have to do? Turn a corner. Not that I'm complaining, but swarms aren't the skill-less god-mode AV weapon that some people make them out to be. wow....so are you really implying that it takes more skill to use swarm launchers than ADS??? Is this the sort of player thinking that I'm up against every time that I post on the forums? I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm simply stating the Swarm Launcher's obvious weakness. Don't get so worked up over a simple statement. Be the mercenary of tomorrow, today. Go beyond with Aurum!


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