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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5282
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Posted - 2014.11.24 13:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ladies and gentlemen, lunatics and neckbeards
I bring to you a topic of discussion that is going to be a hotbutton but I think it should be addressed.
Today's battle rifles in DUST are varied, carry their own distinct strengths and weaknesses and carry their own flavor.
Perhaps they are too diverse, because each of them is so very situational. I'm at the point where I call them situation rifles rather than battle rifles.
Each of the four main rifles is supposed to be the primary racial go-to weapon for it's main line infantry. Unfortunately each of them fails to be particularly good.
If a rel world army had to pick tfrom them only the CR would pass muster for functionality.
It makes no sense for a racial army to build a line battle rifle that cannot compete with enemy rifles.
I think it's time to normalize the function of the rifles and vary them by impact, rate of fire, etc as well as by the damage profiles.
It makes no sense for the gallente to have a rifle that cannot reach their caldari enemies entirely. It's equally ridiculous that caldari should have a weapon useless against gallente brawlers in the barbed wire.
Each of the rifles is too quirky and doesn't have enough generalized function which leads to people abandoning weapons they might otherwise prefer because another is clearly superior.
They need to have similar range, damage and ammo capacity with variations based on lore, not lore absolutes that render entire weapon lines undesirable.
I'm looking at you Assault Rifle optimal range.
The damage profiles provide the best distinction in weapon performance, giving bonuses or penalties based on whether the target operayes shields or armor as primary.
But they're all too disparate at the core stat level.
Right now only CR and scrams behave like general use rifles with the CR having the best and most balanced overall stats. It just happens to be dealing primarily with the current armor meta.
But there should be no clearly inferior weapon type among battle rifles. As long as they remain so very disparate there will always be one that is better than yhe others overall.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5294
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Posted - 2014.11.24 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
619
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well.
You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative.
Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored.
The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta. |
Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
398
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast.
The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible.
I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon.
Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4649
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ammo types eased the situation but we never got them
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Haerr
2000
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, lunatics and neckbeards ... I feel so left out right now... :-(
fighter jets
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
619
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Posted - 2014.11.24 17:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast.
The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible.
I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon.
Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive.
The ARR is still really good I use it as my CQC Caldari Assault loadout. The RR is just now more like the TAR where it's primarily supposed to be a longish range aim down sights weapon. The only reason it seems imbalanced right now imo is because the ScR still hasn't been fixed to not be effective in CQC as well. Hopefully its hip-fire dispersion and/or kick will be increased to put it in line with the other precision rifles of the RR and TAR. The AScR is supposed to be the CQC variant of the ScR which is also why the AScR is rare to see because the ScR is effective in CQC. |
Forever ETC
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
851
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Posted - 2014.11.24 18:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Ace Boone wrote:I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast.
The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible.
I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon.
Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive. The ARR is still really good I use it as my CQC Caldari Assault loadout. The RR is just now more like the TAR where it's primarily supposed to be a longish range aim down sights weapon. The only reason it seems imbalanced right now imo is because the ScR still hasn't been fixed to not be effective in CQC as well. Hopefully its hip-fire dispersion and/or kick will be increased to put it in line with the other precision rifles of the RR and TAR. The AScR is supposed to be the CQC variant of the ScR which is also why the AScR is rare to see because the ScR is effective in CQC. Even if they make the ScR hipfire worse it will still be used as a CQC weapon. The scope has less zoom than your SMG so it becomes useless as a long range weapon. Due to the fact we don't have weapon ranges ingame the scope prefers short ranges over long ranges, you can still use it for long ranges but it's scope tells a different story.
No one does it better than PIE
Lasers4life
"Gravity released me. Don't ever hold me down."
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
619
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Posted - 2014.11.24 18:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Forever ETC wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Ace Boone wrote:I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast.
The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible.
I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon.
Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive. The ARR is still really good I use it as my CQC Caldari Assault loadout. The RR is just now more like the TAR where it's primarily supposed to be a longish range aim down sights weapon. The only reason it seems imbalanced right now imo is because the ScR still hasn't been fixed to not be effective in CQC as well. Hopefully its hip-fire dispersion and/or kick will be increased to put it in line with the other precision rifles of the RR and TAR. The AScR is supposed to be the CQC variant of the ScR which is also why the AScR is rare to see because the ScR is effective in CQC. Even if they make the ScR hipfire worse it will still be used as a CQC weapon. The scope has less zoom than your SMG so it becomes useless as a long range weapon. Due to the fact we don't have weapon ranges ingame the scope prefers short ranges over long ranges, you can still use it for long ranges but it's scope tells a different story.
This is true, it does have a reflex scope which it shouldn't. I'd think that the scope should be magnified to fit in line with the RR and TAR as well. Though the reflex scope should remain on the AScR. |
Spartykins
Militaires Sans Jeux
70
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Posted - 2014.11.24 18:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
I was actually thinking something along the lines of this the other day.
Just one question though, where would sidearms lay in this?
(Insert witty phrase here)
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
200
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Posted - 2014.11.24 18:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gallente Assault Rifle: sucks, needs tighter hipfire or something to make it more dominant in CQC, right now the only way to get accurate fire out of it is to ADS, which is suicidal inside the GAR's optimal.
Gallente Breach Assault Rifle: Good weapon, leave it as is.
Gallente Tactical Assault Rifle: Its ok, but seems a little underpowered, maybe increase per shot damage or something?
Gallente Burst Assault Rifle: Haven't used it in a while, no comment.
Assault Rail Rifle: Too much kick for a "CQC" weapon (though given its long range I dont even know if it should have good CQC?), iron sights are misaligned and the weapon shoots slightly lower than the sight, this combined with the weapon chattering up and down during firing makes it very easy to lose a moving target. Needs to be fixed up a little because of above issues it has bad long range accuracy and bad CQC accuracy (in other words: its hard to hit **** with it from any range if target is moving at all).
Breach Rail Rifle: Haven't been using it much since before its changes, but I think its in a decent spot (though maybe increasing its range ~10m or so would be a good idea after its charge increase and CQC effectiveness have been neutered)
Scrambler Rifle: Good weapon, but I think its overpowered against shield suits (feels overwhelming like the pre-nerf mass driver was vs. armor suits). It also feels like a real slog to burn through an armor tanked suit. Feel like this needs to have its damage profile tightened up to fix both issues.
Assault Scrambler Rifle: Kinda ****, weapon chatters all over the place in hipfire and ADS. Needs to be made more stable so it doesnt hop around so much during firing even in medium bursts (~10+ shots will have it hopping all over the place). May need a damage buff after that, but its main issue is how it jumps around.
Burst Combat Rifle: My favorite rifle right now, seems like its in a decent spot.
Assault Combat Rifle: Haven't been using it much lately but I think its also in a good spot.
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
200
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 18:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative. Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored. The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta. Essentially if you want more normalized weapons, the only way that would occur is if damage profiles were removed and all weapons did 100% to both shields and armor. This would in my opinion only take away from the game however. The real issue is that shields suck in comparison to armor right now, not that armor profiled weapons are too powerful.
I think this is largely accurate but it doesnt explicitly state the spoiler in the meta here: the scrambler rifle just completely wrecks shield suits. It is too much to expect a shield tanker to feel comfortable using shield only tank when a weapon can fire one volley of shots and burn away 500 shields in under half a second.
I mentioned this in my post above and I want to repeat it: the damage profile for the scrambler rifle really makes shield tanking suicidal when there is a weapon in the game that can just melt shields so quickly, and unlike the laser rifle there is no drawback to using it, scrambler rifles are good in CQC and at nearly rail rifle distances as well. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
622
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 19:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative. Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored. The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta. Essentially if you want more normalized weapons, the only way that would occur is if damage profiles were removed and all weapons did 100% to both shields and armor. This would in my opinion only take away from the game however. The real issue is that shields suck in comparison to armor right now, not that armor profiled weapons are too powerful. I think this is largely accurate but it doesnt explicitly state the spoiler in the meta here: the scrambler rifle just completely wrecks shield suits. It is too much to expect a shield tanker to feel comfortable using shield only tank when a weapon can fire one volley of shots and burn away 500 shields in under half a second. I mentioned this in my post above and I want to repeat it: the damage profile for the scrambler rifle really makes shield tanking suicidal when there is a weapon in the game that can just melt shields so quickly, and unlike the laser rifle there is no drawback to using it, scrambler rifles are good in CQC and at nearly rail rifle distances as well.
AR and its variants can chew through 500 shields like its paper as well although not as quickly as the scrambler although I absolutely agree the scrambler needs tweaking. I think changing its damage profile is unnecessary though as I have no trouble chewing through Armored suits with a AScR as I think I mentioned in another post earlier you really want to use its reflex scope as it does disperse like crazy in hip fire. The ScR I think will be better if it's redesigned to function like the TAR and RR, IE. wilder hipfire and stronger kick along with a stronger scope.
All of this I'm saying though as someone who uses advanced level of all rifle types along with advanced level Cal, Gal, and Min assaults, Cal and Min logis, Cal and Min sentinels, Cal and Min commandos, and Cal scouts. Being someone who specialized in nothing I can't quite speak for proto level although from what I've seen they still trend the same power wise with the exception of the Burst AR. The Allotek Burst is actually good while the adv Burst is pretty garbage which is all because the adv Burst has a lower RPM which was a relic left over from when Uprising first hit and has been ignored throughout all the rifle rebalances. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
200
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 19:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative. Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored. The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta. Essentially if you want more normalized weapons, the only way that would occur is if damage profiles were removed and all weapons did 100% to both shields and armor. This would in my opinion only take away from the game however. The real issue is that shields suck in comparison to armor right now, not that armor profiled weapons are too powerful. I think this is largely accurate but it doesnt explicitly state the spoiler in the meta here: the scrambler rifle just completely wrecks shield suits. It is too much to expect a shield tanker to feel comfortable using shield only tank when a weapon can fire one volley of shots and burn away 500 shields in under half a second. I mentioned this in my post above and I want to repeat it: the damage profile for the scrambler rifle really makes shield tanking suicidal when there is a weapon in the game that can just melt shields so quickly, and unlike the laser rifle there is no drawback to using it, scrambler rifles are good in CQC and at nearly rail rifle distances as well. AR and its variants can chew through 500 shields like its paper as well although not as quickly as the scrambler although I absolutely agree the scrambler needs tweaking. I think changing its damage profile is unnecessary though as I have no trouble chewing through Armored suits with a AScR as I think I mentioned in another post earlier you really want to use its reflex scope as it does disperse like crazy in hip fire. The ScR I think will be better if it's redesigned to function like the TAR and RR, IE. wilder hipfire and stronger kick along with a stronger scope. All of this I'm saying though as someone who uses advanced level of all rifle types along with advanced level Cal, Gal, and Min assaults, Cal and Min logis, Cal and Min sentinels, Cal and Min commandos, and Cal scouts. Being someone who specialized in nothing I can't quite speak for proto level although from what I've seen they still trend the same power wise with the exception of the Burst AR. The Allotek Burst is actually good while the adv Burst is pretty garbage which is all because the adv Burst has a lower RPM which was a relic left over from when Uprising first hit and has been ignored throughout all the rifle rebalances. Edit: As far as needing to aim down sight with the AScR, it does make sense if you consider that its an Amarrian weapon. The Amarr suits are designed to outlast opponents by being slow but being heavily armored and packing a huge punch, therefore strafing or standing still while aiming down the sight seems agreeable with them. Anyone else using the weapon just has to remember they weren't the optimal operator.
Yes AR and its variants can rip into shields as well, but it takes much longer than a scrambler rifle since you can just zap out 10-15 shots in under half a second if your finger is quick, or a charge shot and some follow ups. It just completely wipes out shielding without any kind of preamble or time for any reaction. I think its fire rate needs limiting, and yeah the hipfire on it seems really good for a long range weapon with pinpoint ADS accuracy.
Agree on ADSing the ASCR, but I feel like it hops around in ADS as well, just like the ARR. I dont understand why these long range weapons have such poor ADS stability where the thing jumps around and makes it impossible to stay on target. I can understand the hipfire being bad, but having bad ADS and bad hipfire just makes the guns crap and difficult to use for no reason. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14998
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Posted - 2014.11.24 20:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Strikes me as a fair suggestion that reminds me of the the way MAG used to balance things.
Arguably each faction had its own style.
SVER - Hit harder but fired slower Raven - Had the greatest stability but the smallest calibre bullets Valour - Had an even handed mix of both
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
623
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Posted - 2014.11.24 20:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Strikes me as a fair suggestion that reminds me of the the way MAG used to balance things.
Arguably each faction had its own style.
SVER - Hit harder but fired slower Raven - Had the greatest stability but the smallest calibre bullets Valour - Had an even handed mix of both
I've always seen it as:
Amarr: Heavy hitting, slow moving, dual tanks. Generally the Kings of 1 v 1 but no real sustainability over drawn out fire fights.
Gallente: Armor oriented skirmishers with a lot of armor and armor regen oriented more towards medium to close range skirmishing.
Caldari: Shield oriented skirmishers with a lot of shields and shield regen oriented more towards medium to long range skirmishing.
Minmitar: Dual tanks, with greater speed for ambushing, but over all the lowest of the hp totals.
In reality however, these roles are often skewed or simply neglected by the player as players are all over the place when they fit suits. Which I think at times turns into unwarranted QQ as they are trying to use a suit or weapon in a role it wasn't intended for. And sadly, sometimes this causes weapons or suits to be warped from their original roles. Or on the other hand, sometimes players realize this and voice concerns and devs like Rattatai fix it which is how I feel for the most part about his hotfixes... wasn't until the new CPM came along when it felt like we were back to the old days of confused imbalance based on personal feels with no oversight as to the over all design.
I will say right now out of the 4 suit types I feel Caldari is nearly pointless with its weapons and I'm not sure how to fix it without causing serious levels of QQ. When it comes to medium to close range skirmishing Gallente are better and I think they should be. But outside of sniping, Caldari currently get trashed by Laser Rifles and ScR's at range. The dps is just too fast from those weapons for their shields to handle it and be able to put any reasonable amount of RR rounds down the line.
Not really sure how to fix this as the LR's only purpose is to do exactly that. They have made a weapon that is specifically designed to deny Caldari their role. And the ScR will lose purpose if its CQC and Long range capabilities are neutered. |
IZI doro
Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V.
15
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Posted - 2014.11.24 21:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well.
I was seriously considering posting a new topic on "Weapon Naming Conventions & Eliminating Racial Stereotypes." Then I saw this topic. Thanks for bring this up! ________________
*Note: I am aware that there are actions in effect to deliver the complete weapon arsenal, meaning that the missing variants of each weapon will be delivered when the time comes. I want to put this out as a possible consideration for design implementation.
Issues: -Rifles are incredibly specialized, effectively overlooking the philosophy of being the most adaptable infantry weapon. -Variant "prefixes" are tethered to racial stereotypes, which further promote the previously mentioned specialization of weapons. -There is a lack of incentive to create weapon / suit synergies due to playstyle restrictions associated with the specialization of weapons.
Suggestion: -Equalize rifles by eliminating "prefix stereotyping" for each race. -Variant prefixes should be normalized, yet offer a definitive playstyle. ________________
Old Assault Rifle Prefix Sterotyping: - Amarr = Tactical - Caldari = Breach - Gallente = Assault - Minmatar = Burst
Suggested Prefix Definitions (Scaled from low-to-high, 1-4): prefix = Magazine Capacity , Rate of Fire , Damage Per Round , Damage Falloff - Assault = 4, 3, 2, 2 - Breach = 2, 2, 3, 1 - Burst = 3, 4, 1, 4 - Tactical = 1, 1, 4, 3
Suggested Racial Qualities: - Amarr: Highest Damage Per Round, but has heat generation - Caldari: Lowest Damage Falloff, but has a spool time - Gallente: Highest Ammunition Carried, but average performance - Minmatar: Highest Rate of Fire, but poor handling ________________
Example of New Rifles:
Scrambler Rifles: -Generic: Automatic like the current Assault Scrambler, but with the clip and heat generation of the current standard Scrambler. -Assault: Like the current Assault Scrambler. -Breach: Charged shots only, but charge is relatively short. Handles like a futuristic bow & arrow. -Burst: Semi-auto single shot, with charge shot delivers burst, but instant overheat. -Tactical: Semi-Auto Scrambler already known and loved.
Rail Rifles: -Generic: Like the current Rail Rifle. -Assault: Like the current Assault Rail Rifle, however no spool time. Rate of fire accelerates the longer the trigger is held. -Breach: Effectively the bigger brother of the Bolt Pistol. -Burst: Effectively a mid-range shotgun with a spool time. -Tactical: Effective the younger brother of the Charge Sniper Rifle.
Combat Rifles: -Generic: Like a hella nerfed Assault Combat Rifle. -Assault: Like a upscaled Sub-Machine Gun. -Breach: Like the current Assault Rifle. -Burst: Current Combat Rifle. -Tactical: Effectively like a bigger Scrambler Pistol.
Blaster Rifles: -Generic: More like the current Assault Rail Rifle, without a spool time. -Assault: Current Assault Rifle. -Breach: More like current Assault Scrambler Rifle. -Burst: Current Burst Assault Rifle. -Tactical: Current Tactical Assault Rifle.
Ignorance is only a problem when left untreated. Stop the spread of ignorance with a daily dose of knowledge!
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo
3368
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Posted - 2014.11.24 22:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
IZI doro wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. I was seriously considering posting a new topic on "Weapon Naming Conventions & Eliminating Racial Stereotypes." Then I saw this topic. Thanks for bring this up! ________________ * Note: I am aware that there are actions in effect to deliver the complete weapon arsenal, meaning that the missing variants of each weapon will be delivered when the time comes. I want to put this out as a possible consideration for design implementation.Issues: -Rifles are incredibly specialized, effectively overlooking the philosophy of being the most adaptable infantry weapon. -Variant "prefixes" are tethered to racial stereotypes, which further promote the previously mentioned specialization of weapons. -There is a lack of incentive to create weapon / suit synergies due to playstyle restrictions associated with the specialization of weapons. Suggestion: -Equalize rifles by eliminating "prefix stereotyping" for each race. -Variant prefixes should be normalized, yet offer a definitive playstyle. ________________ Old Assault Rifle Prefix Sterotyping: - Amarr = Tactical - Caldari = Breach - Gallente = Assault - Minmatar = Burst Suggested Prefix Definitions (Scaled from low-to-high, 1-4): prefix = Magazine Capacity , Rate of Fire , Damage Per Round , Damage Falloff- Assault = 4, 3, 2, 2 - Breach = 2, 2, 3, 1 - Burst = 3, 4, 1, 4 - Tactical = 1, 1, 4, 3 Suggested Racial Qualities: - Amarr: Highest Damage Per Round, but has heat generation - Caldari: Lowest Damage Falloff, but has a spool time - Gallente: Highest Ammunition Carried, but average performance - Minmatar: Highest Rate of Fire, but poor handling ________________ Example of New Rifles: Scrambler Rifles: - Generic: Automatic like the current Assault Scrambler, but with the clip and heat generation of the current standard Scrambler. - Assault: Like the current Assault Scrambler. - Breach: Charged shots only, but charge is relatively short. Handles like a futuristic bow & arrow. - Burst: Semi-auto single shot, with charge shot delivers burst, but instant overheat. - Tactical: Semi-Auto Scrambler already known and loved. Rail Rifles: - Generic: Like the current Rail Rifle. - Assault: Like the current Assault Rail Rifle, however no spool time. Rate of fire accelerates the longer the trigger is held. - Breach: Effectively the bigger brother of the Bolt Pistol. - Burst: Effectively a mid-range shotgun with a spool time. - Tactical: Effective the younger brother of the Charge Sniper Rifle. Combat Rifles: - Generic: Like a hella nerfed Assault Combat Rifle. - Assault: Like a upscaled Sub-Machine Gun. - Breach: Like the current Assault Rifle. - Burst: Current Combat Rifle. - Tactical: Effectively like a bigger Scrambler Pistol. Blaster Rifles: - Generic: More like the current Assault Rail Rifle, without a spool time. - Assault: Current Assault Rifle. - Breach: More like current Assault Scrambler Rifle. - Burst: Current Burst Assault Rifle. - Tactical: Current Tactical Assault Rifle.
This plus a more refined range progression. I love your description of the amarr breachrifle
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15003
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Posted - 2014.11.24 22:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:IZI doro wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.
They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. I was seriously considering posting a new topic on "Weapon Naming Conventions & Eliminating Racial Stereotypes." Then I saw this topic. Thanks for bring this up! ________________ * Note: I am aware that there are actions in effect to deliver the complete weapon arsenal, meaning that the missing variants of each weapon will be delivered when the time comes. I want to put this out as a possible consideration for design implementation.Issues: -Rifles are incredibly specialized, effectively overlooking the philosophy of being the most adaptable infantry weapon. -Variant "prefixes" are tethered to racial stereotypes, which further promote the previously mentioned specialization of weapons. -There is a lack of incentive to create weapon / suit synergies due to playstyle restrictions associated with the specialization of weapons. Suggestion: -Equalize rifles by eliminating "prefix stereotyping" for each race. -Variant prefixes should be normalized, yet offer a definitive playstyle. ________________ Old Assault Rifle Prefix Sterotyping: - Amarr = Tactical - Caldari = Breach - Gallente = Assault - Minmatar = Burst Suggested Prefix Definitions (Scaled from low-to-high, 1-4): prefix = Magazine Capacity , Rate of Fire , Damage Per Round , Damage Falloff- Assault = 4, 3, 2, 2 - Breach = 2, 2, 3, 1 - Burst = 3, 4, 1, 4 - Tactical = 1, 1, 4, 3 Suggested Racial Qualities: - Amarr: Highest Damage Per Round, but has heat generation - Caldari: Lowest Damage Falloff, but has a spool time - Gallente: Highest Ammunition Carried, but average performance - Minmatar: Highest Rate of Fire, but poor handling ________________ Example of New Rifles: Scrambler Rifles: - Generic: Automatic like the current Assault Scrambler, but with the clip and heat generation of the current standard Scrambler. - Assault: Like the current Assault Scrambler. - Breach: Charged shots only, but charge is relatively short. Handles like a futuristic bow & arrow. - Burst: Semi-auto single shot, with charge shot delivers burst, but instant overheat. - Tactical: Semi-Auto Scrambler already known and loved. Rail Rifles: - Generic: Like the current Rail Rifle. - Assault: Like the current Assault Rail Rifle, however no spool time. Rate of fire accelerates the longer the trigger is held. - Breach: Effectively the bigger brother of the Bolt Pistol. - Burst: Effectively a mid-range shotgun with a spool time. - Tactical: Effective the younger brother of the Charge Sniper Rifle. Combat Rifles: - Generic: Like a hella nerfed Assault Combat Rifle. - Assault: Like a upscaled Sub-Machine Gun. - Breach: Like the current Assault Rifle. - Burst: Current Combat Rifle. - Tactical: Effectively like a bigger Scrambler Pistol. Blaster Rifles: - Generic: More like the current Assault Rail Rifle, without a spool time. - Assault: Current Assault Rifle. - Breach: More like current Assault Scrambler Rifle. - Burst: Current Burst Assault Rifle. - Tactical: Current Tactical Assault Rifle. This plus a more refined range progression. I love your description of the amarr breachrifle
As long as that Breach Rifle offers an authentic Lee Enflield ala Zulu and Zulu Dawn I am down for it.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
409
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Posted - 2014.11.24 23:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
AR: In a good place, very good against shields, but not too bad against armor. A slight range buff would put this weapon in a good place, but it's fine as it is.
BAR: A bit overpowered, shots do a little too much damage, has enough range to make the TAR obsolete. Find a way to either nerf the DPS or make it a CQC weapon. Definitely the best rifle in the game now.
Burst AR: Needs a reduce to kick, a buff to range, and keep the damage where it's at. It needs to be more accurate, but the damage is fine.
ACR: Probably my favorite weapon, great against armor, bad against shields but it gets the job done. In a good place.
BCR: Have major issues hitting strafing targets, the disadvantage against shields doesn't help. Good finisher, very bad weapon for 1v1s.
Scrams: Decent weapon, but the nerf to armor damage was pretty harsh. Shreds scouts, but will have trouble killing any proto suit without overheating.
ASCR: Very good weapon, still a peashooter against armor though.
PLC: Good weapon, requires skill, more of a "mess around" type weapon, however.
Shotgun: Best scout weapon in the game, seeing more logis and commandos carrying shotguns which is good. Not sure how to nerf it without castrating it. Has issues with hit detection.
Sniper Rifle: As good as it should be. Please don't nerf it or buff it anymore. Headshot multiplier is too much, though.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5320
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Posted - 2014.11.25 05:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
@Ace
The point.
You missed it.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5177
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Posted - 2014.11.25 05:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Isn't this what the assault variants are for?
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
2140
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Posted - 2014.11.25 05:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
The Rail, IMO, is ok where it is.
Maybe reduce the charge a smudge, but it's otherwise fine.
I Live for Tears
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2014.11.25 06:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Isn't this what the assault variants are for?
This assumes that assault variants are available the moment you begin skilling into a weapon- or at least at [weapon] Ops L2.
Unfortunately, this has not been the case since the release of Uprising.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
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Posted - 2014.11.25 07:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Isn't this what the assault variants are for? This assumes that assault variants are available the moment you begin skilling into a weapon- or at least at [weapon] Ops L2. Unfortunately, this has not been the case since the release of Uprising.
I really wish they would make std variants of everything, thats always bugged me. If the weapon is too OP to have a standard variant or something, why is it even in the game? |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5137
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Posted - 2014.11.26 19:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
It looks like the Assault Variants are the versatile infantry rifles while the base versions are more specialized rifles.
Of course the Assault Rifle is both its base type and the Assault variant, but falls more on the side of base type as it is still a specialized rifle due to its short range. Is either the Breach or Burst variants more versatile? (I have not tested them.)
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5137
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Posted - 2014.11.26 19:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Isn't this what the assault variants are for? This assumes that assault variants are available the moment you begin skilling into a weapon- or at least at [weapon] Ops L2. Unfortunately, this has not been the case since the release of Uprising. I really wish they would make std variants of everything, thats always bugged me. If the weapon is too OP to have a standard variant or something, why is it even in the game? Hmm, Militia Assault Variants were just announced... Already available on Frontline Starter fits.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
208
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Posted - 2014.11.26 21:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Isn't this what the assault variants are for? This assumes that assault variants are available the moment you begin skilling into a weapon- or at least at [weapon] Ops L2. Unfortunately, this has not been the case since the release of Uprising. I really wish they would make std variants of everything, thats always bugged me. If the weapon is too OP to have a standard variant or something, why is it even in the game? Hmm, Militia Assault Variants were just announced... Already available on Frontline Starter fits.
Now they just need to do it for all the other weapons its missing for, like Charge Sniper Rifle, etc. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
434
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Posted - 2014.11.27 00:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Disagree. I agree with almost everything you said Breakin, but I disagree with your conclusion.
You aren't including battle doctrine. People grab a gun and a suit and then try to force them to fit their preferred play style as opposed to grabbing a gun and suit that fits their prefered playstyle.
The diversity is fine -- often times guns feel OP or UP not because they are, but because they don't work in situations you try to force them to. What makes a gun OP is when it works the best in the situation its supposed to work in, AND darn near as good as all the other weapons in their situations.
Take my min heavy. I run around with a burst and kin cats at like 1000 ehp. The least HP of any heavy. Real barebones. And I guerilla fight with it. Spend time flanking guys on a point that are engaged with the squad mates. POp around the corner, blat one guy in the back, and turn and immediately run away. (Unless they spot me in which case I just run away!) That's how the Min Heavy works. I don't try to frontline bullet sponge with it.
Or my Amarr assault. I run a laser. I get at an overwatch position and I put damage on people in an area denial or suppression role. I don't try to force a building breach.
Battle doctrine. Once we get rifles balanced then people who follow the battle doctrine will find their rifle OP. Those that try to force it into different roles will find it UP. And that will actually be balanced. |
Zindorak
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
1350
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Posted - 2014.11.27 02:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wats falloff damage
Pokemon master and Tekken Lord
Give me da iskiez
Gk0 Scout yay :)
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