DUST Search - [FEEDBACK] Rifles

Vesta Opalus wrote:

TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks.

They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well.

You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative.

Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored.

The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta.

Essentially if you want more normalized weapons, the only way that would occur is if damage profiles were removed and all weapons did 100% to both shields and armor. This would in my opinion only take away from the game however.

The real issue is that shields suck in comparison to armor right now, not that armor profiled weapons are too powerful.

I think this is largely accurate but it doesnt explicitly state the spoiler in the meta here: the scrambler rifle just completely wrecks shield suits. It is too much to expect a shield tanker to feel comfortable using shield only tank when a weapon can fire one volley of shots and burn away 500 shields in under half a second.

I mentioned this in my post above and I want to repeat it: the damage profile for the scrambler rifle really makes shield tanking suicidal when there is a weapon in the game that can just melt shields so quickly, and unlike the laser rifle there is no drawback to using it, scrambler rifles are good in CQC and at nearly rail rifle distances as well.


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TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:35:00 - [1] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks. They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative. Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored. The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:02:00 - [2] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast. The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible. I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon. Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive. The ARR is still really good I use it as my CQC Caldari Assault loadout. The RR is just now more like the TAR where it's primarily supposed to be a longish range aim down sights weapon. The only reason it seems imbalanced right now imo is because the ScR still hasn't been fixed to not be effective in CQC as well. Hopefully its hip-fire dispersion and/or kick will be increased to put it in line with the other precision rifles of the RR and TAR. The AScR is supposed to be the CQC variant of the ScR which is also why the AScR is rare to see because the ScR is effective in CQC.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 18:12:00 - [3] - Quote Forever ETC wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Ace Boone wrote: I liked weapons in 1.7 lol, back when everything except the Duvolle was a beast. The AR is really good IMO, the CR is pretty good, ScR is ok, and the RR is terrible. I never used RRs, but I never thought they were OP. They did pretty good damage from distance and was an ok CQC weapon. There was never really anything special about it, but it did it's job well and it was a good long range weapon. Of course the QQers got a hold of it and got it nerfed though. CCP Rattati has this game in a good place, it's about time he stops listening to the QQers so damn much and let us guide the newbies on how to survive. The ARR is still really good I use it as my CQC Caldari Assault loadout. The RR is just now more like the TAR where it's primarily supposed to be a longish range aim down sights weapon. The only reason it seems imbalanced right now imo is because the ScR still hasn't been fixed to not be effective in CQC as well. Hopefully its hip-fire dispersion and/or kick will be increased to put it in line with the other precision rifles of the RR and TAR. The AScR is supposed to be the CQC variant of the ScR which is also why the AScR is rare to see because the ScR is effective in CQC. Even if they make the ScR hipfire worse it will still be used as a CQC weapon. The scope has less zoom than your SMG so it becomes useless as a long range weapon. Due to the fact we don't have weapon ranges ingame the scope prefers short ranges over long ranges, you can still use it for long ranges but it's scope tells a different story. This is true, it does have a reflex scope which it shouldn't. I'd think that the scope should be magnified to fit in line with the RR and TAR as well. Though the reflex scope should remain on the AScR.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 622	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:11:00 - [4] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: TL;DR: DUST rifles don't feel like battle rifles with operational quirks. They feel like quirks someone tried to build a functional battle rifle around. And it's not working very well. You have to consider that what you talk about as operational efficiency is a complaint of the meta game. Only reason why CR seems more combat effective is that Amarr and Gallente are more popular suits right now, mostly because shields are currently in the nerf cycle. The only weapon with the same operation as the CR is the burst AR which if the adv burst had the same RPM as the proto burst the adv AR would be comparative. Assuming equal player skill, if two Caldari shield tanks one with a proto burst AR and one with a Proto CR fought, the Caldari with the burst is more likely to win. Likewise true for the AR/AScR vs. the ACR/ARR. The shield profiled weapon would be favored. The reason the CR is seemingly the most effective is because it has the highest armor profile damage and armor tanking is the most popular strategy in the meta. Essentially if you want more normalized weapons, the only way that would occur is if damage profiles were removed and all weapons did 100% to both shields and armor. This would in my opinion only take away from the game however. The real issue is that shields suck in comparison to armor right now, not that armor profiled weapons are too powerful. I think this is largely accurate but it doesnt explicitly state the spoiler in the meta here: the scrambler rifle just completely wrecks shield suits. It is too much to expect a shield tanker to feel comfortable using shield only tank when a weapon can fire one volley of shots and burn away 500 shields in under half a second. I mentioned this in my post above and I want to repeat it: the damage profile for the scrambler rifle really makes shield tanking suicidal when there is a weapon in the game that can just melt shields so quickly, and unlike the laser rifle there is no drawback to using it, scrambler rifles are good in CQC and at nearly rail rifle distances as well. AR and its variants can chew through 500 shields like its paper as well although not as quickly as the scrambler although I absolutely agree the scrambler needs tweaking. I think changing its damage profile is unnecessary though as I have no trouble chewing through Armored suits with a AScR as I think I mentioned in another post earlier you really want to use its reflex scope as it does disperse like crazy in hip fire. The ScR I think will be better if it's redesigned to function like the TAR and RR, IE. wilder hipfire and stronger kick along with a stronger scope. All of this I'm saying though as someone who uses advanced level of all rifle types along with advanced level Cal, Gal, and Min assaults, Cal and Min logis, Cal and Min sentinels, Cal and Min commandos, and Cal scouts. Being someone who specialized in nothing I can't quite speak for proto level although from what I've seen they still trend the same power wise with the exception of the Burst AR. The Allotek Burst is actually good while the adv Burst is pretty garbage which is all because the adv Burst has a lower RPM which was a relic left over from when Uprising first hit and has been ignored throughout all the rifle rebalances.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 623	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:48:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Strikes me as a fair suggestion that reminds me of the the way MAG used to balance things. Arguably each faction had its own style. SVER - Hit harder but fired slower Raven - Had the greatest stability but the smallest calibre bullets Valour - Had an even handed mix of both I've always seen it as: Amarr: Heavy hitting, slow moving, dual tanks. Generally the Kings of 1 v 1 but no real sustainability over drawn out fire fights. Gallente: Armor oriented skirmishers with a lot of armor and armor regen oriented more towards medium to close range skirmishing. Caldari: Shield oriented skirmishers with a lot of shields and shield regen oriented more towards medium to long range skirmishing. Minmitar: Dual tanks, with greater speed for ambushing, but over all the lowest of the hp totals. In reality however, these roles are often skewed or simply neglected by the player as players are all over the place when they fit suits. Which I think at times turns into unwarranted QQ as they are trying to use a suit or weapon in a role it wasn't intended for. And sadly, sometimes this causes weapons or suits to be warped from their original roles. Or on the other hand, sometimes players realize this and voice concerns and devs like Rattatai fix it which is how I feel for the most part about his hotfixes... wasn't until the new CPM came along when it felt like we were back to the old days of confused imbalance based on personal feels with no oversight as to the over all design. I will say right now out of the 4 suit types I feel Caldari is nearly pointless with its weapons and I'm not sure how to fix it without causing serious levels of QQ. When it comes to medium to close range skirmishing Gallente are better and I think they should be. But outside of sniping, Caldari currently get trashed by Laser Rifles and ScR's at range. The dps is just too fast from those weapons for their shields to handle it and be able to put any reasonable amount of RR rounds down the line. Not really sure how to fix this as the LR's only purpose is to do exactly that. They have made a weapon that is specifically designed to deny Caldari their role. And the ScR will lose purpose if its CQC and Long range capabilities are neutered.