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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11623
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
A long while ago logis were on the list of things that needed a serious overhaul, Rattati had spreadsheets and plans of slot normalization, but ultimately nothing came of it. It really needs to be fixed though, because it's pretty ridiculous. I haven't been able to play Dust in months because of certain real life situations, so I didn't feel I'm qualified to be talking about such large issues, but none of it has changed since last I played, and just knowing nothing change makes me feel this compulsion to speak out about it. I will explain what the problem is below.
STANDARD
AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm.
In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents:
The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed and standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.
ADVANCED
AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
Advanced logis comparison.
At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.
PROTOTYPE
AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
Prototype logis comparison.
The Gallente and Minmatar logis are the norm with 8 modules, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
At standard tier the Amarr logi started out as one of the 2 best logis, but at prototype level it's probably the worst. It has a sidearm, but at the cost of having less equipment AND having less modules. Basically the Amarr sacrifices twice for the sidearm when ideally it should only have to sacrifice once (either 1 less module OR 1 less equipment, but not both penalties). It should also be noted that the only difference between the advanced and prototype Amarr logis is just 1 module slot.
The Caldari logi started with only 3 module slots at standard, yet at prototype it has 9 module slots. While 9 module slots can be considered balanced because it is a the cost of having less equipment than the GA and MN logis, it does make progression very strange.
[SOLUTION]: my proposals are intentionally general and not specific because I don't feel like making a spreadsheets, and this thread is more about calling attention to the issue again. I also don't want to get in a lengthy debate about the specifics.
Logis don't necessarily have to be placed in a very rigid progression system, but just give them the same number of total slots for a certain tier. By this I mean when you add up light weapon slot, sidearm slot, grenade slot, equipment slots, module slots (highs and lows) for logis of the same tier, you should get the same total number. This gives a lot of leeway, and allows some logis to have sidearms, or have more modules or equipment than others, but in an ultimately balanced way.
Be consistent. Don't have a certain racial logi start out completely superior in every way just to have them be inferior at prototype, or have a logi start out with poor module slot count just to have them have the most module slots at prototype.
Minmatar logi should be seen as a shining example for progression between tiers, and for being competent slot counts.
If anyone doesn't think there is a problem, go compare a standard Gallente logi to a Minmatar one.
@Rattati: any plans to have another try at this?
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
13823
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think Logis of all tiers should have 3-4 equipment slots depending on their race.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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korrah silain
True Illuminate
3
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quick opinion: start all races at 3eq, and 4 mods, no sidearm.
Ga:1/3
Min/amarr:2/2
Cal:3/1
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sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
822
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Couple of logi threads yesterday, where I ventured the idea of going as high as five equipment slots; and making it sytematics between tiers (i.e. 3/4/5 for all logis). Combat effectiveness also needs to be (should be?) re-worked or re-thought. Do they need grenades? Should they all get sidearms?
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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korrah silain
True Illuminate
3
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
sabre prime wrote:Couple of logi threads yesterday, where I ventured the idea of going as high as five equipment slots; and making it sytematics between tiers (i.e. 3/4/5 for all logis). Combat effectiveness also needs to be (should be?) re-worked or re-thought. Do they need grenades? Should they all get sidearms?
i think the sidearm is unnecessary, and is a fair sacrafice for the extra equipment, that being said the deffinatly need to have a speed boost, and probably an ehp boost. |
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5117
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just make the slot progression the same as their assault counterparts
Give the Amarr 1 less slot on each tier IF you keep the sidearm
/thread
The reason Rattati gave up on this was because everyone kept fighting over the whole Amarr sidearm debate and wouldn't actually talk about the changes because everyone pretty much agreed on it.
But Rattati ALSO proposed to nerf logi speed, and to change up the number of equipment slots per tier, and do all this other random crap that wasn't necessary at all.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11625
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Just make the slot progression the same as their assault counterparts
Give the Amarr 1 less slot on each tier IF you keep the sidearm
/thread
That's pretty much what I would suggest if I was going to propose something specific.
+1
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Ku Shala
The Generals
1019
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
. same H/L slots as an assault ( they re both mediums right?) 10 % less base ehp(than assault),3 std,3 adv, 4proto(5 equips is n/a) equip for all suits amarr then loses sidearm,adjust the cpu/pg ,base speed should be slower than assault race specific but running speed should be almost the same since soonGäó you will not be able to switch roles during combat so logis must be able to escape large engagments (no sidearm).
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)
Caldari Loyalist
*Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
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CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
329
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
 Patience, fellas.
Uprising 1.9 was an interesting surprise, and I think also a turning point that got some serious luggage out of the way, and proved something in CCP (something they won't discuss with us, because it's their private company business).
Whatever was behind it, I think 1.9 is being considered enough of an acheivement, and that's why CCP is now buzzing up on every discussion regarding Equipment-control, team-versus-squad data, detection of vehicles in HUD scanning, and Logi vehicle reintroduction.
...It's very close. Logistics is finally the next target being worked on now. Finally.
I have spent the last six visits to the game, JUST re-visiting and re-assessing my artificer-gear and my (quasi)-logi fit-outs I was using on my vehcles. No combat whatsoever... just sweeping the equipment cobwebs out of my fittings menu. Because I can taste it. The "Logistics" return is now being dev-ed. No 'soon' ... it's inally NOW.
The patience has paid off. Now we only have to keep cross-fingers that we don't "request-list" the poor devs right into fouling it all up, LOL!!
Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne...
No story can have life without writers and publishers.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
134
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:*snipped amazing awesomely written and well-reasoned post*
I do agree completely- in terms of internal class balance, the Amarr and Minmatar Logis are superior at STD and ADV level, with Gallente and Minmatar edging out at PRO, with Caldari giving a good showing and Amarr falling behind.
Incidentally, Amarr slot layout has been a pet peeve of mine for a while now.
I'd also like to point out that in terms of inter-class balance, the Caldari and Amarr actually get shafted- the Caldari is blatantly inferior to any scout suit for equipment usage given that it has such a terrible slot layout at STD- and ADV- and only two equip slots at STD, with nothing to compensate whatsoever.
The Amarr Logi also ends up being a slower, less-stealthy Amarr Scout at STD, as they have the same module/equipment count, but the AmLogi has an inferior slot layout for the intended tanking method (armor).
But as Shayz suggested in this post:
I-Shayz-I wrote:Just make the slot progression the same as their assault counterparts
Give the Amarr 1 less slot on each tier IF you keep the sidearm
/thread
The easy solution is to simply normalize the slots with the assault suits. Funnily enough, the Minmatar Logi already does this, and at PRO level so to does the GalLogi.
Also, give the CalLogi a 4th equipment slot to compensate for the loss of that mysterious 4th low if the layout is normalized with the assault suits.
Given that the Amarr Logi is somewhat my preferred suit, I'd also like to offer the following:
KEEP THE SIDEARM slot. To compensate for this, the suit should lose either ONE (1) module slot, or ONE (1) equipment slot- but by no means should it lose both.
As to which it should lose... I can see arguments to be made for either case, though I would recommend that it lose a high slot rather than a low, considering that the relative lack of low slots on the Amarr Logi is already an issue.
So is terrible PG value, but that's a separate issue.
sabre prime wrote:Couple of logi threads yesterday, where I ventured the idea of going as high as five equipment slots; and making it sytematic between tiers (i.e. 3/4/5 for all logis). Combat effectiveness also needs to be re-worked or re-thought. Do they need grenades? Should they all get sidearms?
I will now share my deep dark wish of logi-ness:
Amarr Logi has a sidearm and four equipment slots. The other three get no sidearm, but get a whopping SIX equipment slots. Your mind is now blown.
Insofar as combat effectiveness, I am personally a proponent that logis should be subpar for direct engagement compared to, say, an assault/sentinel/commando, but a logi should by all means be completely capable of shooting other players in the face to good effect- it's just that it's an inefficient choice for that task, and you gain greater ability to shoot stuff in the face by using a different suit.
korrah silain wrote:Quick opinion: start all races at 3eq, and 4 mods, no sidearm.
Ga:1/3
Min/amarr:2/2
Cal:3/1
I hate you.
Mostly because you think that the Amarr Logi should keep it's asinine 2/2, 3/3, 3/4 slot layout, instead of retooling it to, for example, 1/3, 2/4, 2/5.
If you come back with something like "blah stupid blah Gallente best armor blah stupid", then I will lambaste your idiocy as to the appropriate tanking methods used by the races of New Eden.
Anyone who even slightly played EVE knows that Amarr are the armor brick race, the Gallente the armor rep race, with Caldari being shield brick and Minmatar being speed/shield regen, with a little bit of armor on the side.
You should now feel smarter after being enlightened as to the nature of proper racial tanking methods in New Eden.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
824
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
^ Six equipment slots is too much. The reason I said five is because equipment should be the dominant slots on a logi suit; it's what they do. Also, CCP devs have said that five equipment slots were intended, but the game just can't support them right now. I think it requires new code.
Also, the Amarr logi could have fouir equipment slot and have a sidearm that is only unlocked at proto.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4638
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Posted - 2014.11.20 03:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Great post. +1
BTW, the reason the Amarr logi is so much better at ADV (and relatively so at STD) is because originally only the proto suit had the sidearm. That was silly so when they fixed the Amarr suit (remember the 20 total PG at STD? Lol) they put the sidearm on all of them without doing anything else to the total slot count. Thus the STD and ADV logis don't sacrifice 2 slots for sidearm, only 1.
Shayz has it right, /thread for me too.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
134
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Posted - 2014.11.20 04:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
sabre prime wrote:^ Six equipment slots is too much.
How so? Mostly I ask because the idea was initially "hmm, wouldn't it be interesting if..."
sabre prime wrote:The reason I said five is because equipment should be the dominant slots on a logi suit; it's what they do. Also, CCP devs have said that five equipment slots were intended, but the game just can't support them right now. I think it requires new code.
I wonder what exactly the technical limitations (besides UI) are that prevent five equipment slots from being used.
sabre prime wrote:Also, the Amarr logi could have fouir equipment slot and have a sidearm that is only unlocked at proto.
Heh, that's a cute joke right there.
Don't ever say it again.
Seriously though, I personally would hate that; the defining feature of the Amarr Logi is the fact that it has a sidearm- only being able to gain said sidearm at PRO level would be asinine.
There's a reason that CCP changed that to how it is now.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
1242
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Posted - 2014.11.20 05:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
sabre prime wrote:^ Six equipment slots is too much. The reason I said five is because equipment should be the dominant slots on a logi suit; it's what they do. Also, CCP devs have said that five equipment slots were intended, but the game just can't support them right now. I think it requires new code.
Also, the Amarr logi could have fouir equipment slot and have a sidearm that is only unlocked at proto.
yes its maxed there.
if the game was balanced properly and everything was as it should be every suit would have a cap of 8 like ships in eve.
8 highs (mediums in eve) 8 lows
and then 8 slots to distribute among weapons, equipment, and grenades.
so realistically you could have 1 gun 1 side arm 1 grenade and 5 equipment if the fit had all 8 slots unlocked.
or no guns, no grenades, no sidearm and 8 equipment.
idk why they made mediu slots into high slots. instead of just doing this.
make high slots equipment and weapons. and give it weapon hardpoints.
shields and such go back to being called medium slots, and low slots are unchanged.
you may have 8 high slots in eve but only a few turret points. so you cant fit 8 weapons.
do the same here. 1-2 weapon hardpoints a sidearm hardpoint then use the rest for equipment.
they messed the fitting screen up.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Slave of MORTE
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
94
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Posted - 2014.11.20 13:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
korrah silain wrote:sabre prime wrote:Couple of logi threads yesterday, where I ventured the idea of going as high as five equipment slots; and making it sytematics between tiers (i.e. 3/4/5 for all logis). Combat effectiveness also needs to be (should be?) re-worked or re-thought. Do they need grenades? Should they all get sidearms? i think the sidearm is unnecessary, and is a fair sacrafice for the extra equipment, that being said the deffinatly need to have a speed boost, and probably an ehp boost.
Coming from someone who speed tanks the amar logi
It's speed is its greatest weakness ...it can't keep up with the frames it's supporting let alone run ahead with uplinks
Tanked amar logi can't jump a tiny ledge ..
I run my logi with 1 to 2 kinkats and 2 complex reppers as that's the only effective way to get around ..
I think along with a slot re balance ccp should consider raising the speed of all logis ...as it's one if the most useful stats to a support unit ..they need to be able to shadow Thier teammates not struggle to keep up
Also I'm for ccp giving logis ewar abilities I should be able to effectively run precision enhancers on my amar logi ..
Personally ewar and speed is what makes my scogi..outclass my logi..After running amar scogi and amar logi ..i started fitting my logi like a scout to great effect
Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4644
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:korrah silain wrote:sabre prime wrote:Couple of logi threads yesterday, where I ventured the idea of going as high as five equipment slots; and making it sytematics between tiers (i.e. 3/4/5 for all logis). Combat effectiveness also needs to be (should be?) re-worked or re-thought. Do they need grenades? Should they all get sidearms? i think the sidearm is unnecessary, and is a fair sacrafice for the extra equipment, that being said the deffinatly need to have a speed boost, and probably an ehp boost. Coming from someone who speed tanks the amar logi It's speed is its greatest weakness ...it can't keep up with the frames it's supporting let alone run ahead with uplinks Tanked amar logi can't jump a tiny ledge .. I run my logi with 1 to 2 kinkats and 2 complex reppers as that's the only effective way to get around .. I think along with a slot re balance ccp should consider raising the speed of all logis ...as it's one if the most useful stats to a support unit ..they need to be able to shadow Thier teammates not struggle to keep up Also I'm for ccp giving logis ewar abilities I should be able to effectively run precision enhancers on my amar logi .. Personally ewar and speed is what makes my scogi..outclass my logi..After running amar scogi and amar logi ..i started fitting my logi like a scout to great effect
IKR? I spend waaay too much time telling sentinels to slow down a second. It's sad, really.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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shaman oga
The Dunwich Horror
3259
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Same assault slot progression should be good, min logi slot progression is the only good one (idk about amarr logi)
Situational awareness commonly called passive scan.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp .
1461
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Posted - 2014.11.20 16:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Good to see you back and posting KHW .
Always nice to see someone without any bias in there approach , people who care about the health of this game are few and far between .
Logic and reasoning is sorely missed in this game .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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Mobius Wyvern
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
5445
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Good to see you back and posting KHW .
Always nice to see someone without any bias in there approach , people who care about the health of this game are few and far between .
Logic and reasoning is sorely missed in this game .
Horned Wolf Best Wolf.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5133
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
bump
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List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Zaria Min Deir
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
872
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Posted - 2014.11.20 18:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Logistics slot progression is something I really can't forgive Rattati for dropping the ball on, he was already working on it to coincide with the assault slot layout retooling, and then just tossed it aside without another look when he got negative feedback from the community regarding his ideas about sidearms on logis.
It's certainly time (and a half) to fix the entirely asinine, as you have pointed out, slot progression. This doesn't have to be packaged into some magical awesome "fix to all logi issues" hotfix... It just needs to happen, sooner, not later.
Have you considered installing the improved keyboard?
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
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xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
234
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Posted - 2014.11.21 09:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
[quote=KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf]A long while ago logis were on the list of things that needed a serious overhaul, Rattati had spreadsheets and plans of slot normalization, but ultimately nothing came of it. It really needs to be fixed though, because it's pretty ridiculous. I haven't been able to play Dust in months because of certain real life situations, so I didn't feel I'm qualified to be talking about such large issues, but none of it has changed since last I played, and just knowing nothing change makes me feel this compulsion to speak out about it. I will explain what the problem is below.
STANDARD
AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm.
In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents:
The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.
ADVANCED
AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
Advanced logis comparison.
At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.
PROTOTYPE
AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
Prototype logis comparison.
The Gallente and Minmatar logis are the norm with 8 modules, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
At standard tier the Amarr logi started out as one of the 2 best logis, but at prototype level it's probably the worst. It has a sidearm, but at the cost of having less equipment AND having less modules. Basically the Amarr sacrifices twice for the sidearm when ideally it should only have to sacrifice once (either 1 less module OR 1 less equipment, but not both penalties). It should also be noted that the only difference between the advanced and prototype Amarr logis is just 1 module slot.
The Caldari logi started with only 3 module slots at standard, yet at prototype it has 9 module slots. While 9 module slots can be considered balanced because it is a the cost of having less equipment than the GA and MN logis, it does make progression very strange.
[SOLUTION]: my proposals are intentionally general and not specific because I don't feel like making a spreadsheets, and this thread is more about calling attention to the issue again. I also don't want to get in a lengthy debate about the specifics.
Logis don't necessarily have to be placed in a very rigid progression system, but just give them the same number of total slots for a certain tier. By this I mean when you add up light weapon slot, sidearm slot, grenade slot, equipment slots, module slots (highs and lows) for logis of the same tier, you should get the same total number. This gives a lot of leeway, and allows some logis to have sidearms, or have more modules or equipment than others, but in an ultimately balanced way.
Be consistent. Don't have a certain racial logi start out completely superior in every way just to have them be inferior at prototype, or have a logi start out with poor module slot count just to have them have the most module slots at prototype.
Minmatar logi should be seen as a shining example for progression between tiers, and for being competent slot counts.
EDIT: If I were to suggest a specific solution.
I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts (proposed in the comments a lot).
The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange.
All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype.
These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier.
If anyone doesn't think there is a problem, go compare a standard Gallente logi to a Minmatar one.
The problem I see here is where you don't calculate actual total HP/CPU/PG/Stamina/Stamina Recovery Rate/Movement Speed/Sprint Speed etc. Your solution to give equal module/weapon/equipment based on a tier level must weigh all options of the suit encompassed with racial benefit, as well as the disadvantage. Each logi suit has its advantages, its just a matter of how you use it. Cal logi has its place just as much as gal logi, the same with the min and amarr. Understand that the game has shifted to where each player has been put into a box in terms of suit and weapon cohesion; General use of anything outside this law will be limited to an extent. Every logistics suit is situational, not general in use.
|LOGi GOD|
Director of Fatal Absolution
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11699
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Fix it!
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3976
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
I've been harping on making Logi progression match Assault progression for some time now. The Assault progression is very solid, and as you have pointed out, the Logi progression....isn't. In actuality the Proto Logis, aside from some slot tweaking are not *that* bad, so converting them over to properly match the Assaults won't be too hard. Besides in the case of the Cal Logi with its stupid 5/4 system, typically one of those low slots is filled with a CPU extender anyways, so just remove the 4th low and buff CPU accordingly.
I'd also like to maintain that the Cal Logi should either match the Gal and Min equipment count, or have a sidearm to compensate for lack of a 4th equipment. I'd probably vote for the former over the latter personally. And yes, at the very least all STD Logis should have 3 equipment so that all logis at any given moment have more equipment than a Scout.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Thokk Nightshade
Montana Militia
752
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Posted - 2014.12.16 02:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote: Besides in the case of the Cal Logi with its stupid 5/4 system, typically one of those low slots is filled with a CPU extender anyways, so just remove the 4th low and buff CPU accordingly.
I'd also like to maintain that the Cal Logi should either match the Gal and Min equipment count, or have a sidearm to compensate for lack of a 4th equipment. I'd probably vote for the former over the latter personally. And yes, at the very least all STD Logis should have 3 equipment so that all logis at any given moment have more equipment than a Scout.
You are spot on. Every single proto logi suit I have has a CPU extender in one of the low slots. Without it, I'm running a LOT of militia and standard stuff on it so the concept of running proto is pointless.
I also agree on the equipment. Personally I'm in favor of the 4th equipment slot so as a logi, I can logi.
Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
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The-Errorist
931
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Posted - 2014.12.22 06:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx wrote:...
The problem I see here is where you don't calculate actual total HP/CPU/PG/Stamina/Stamina Recovery Rate/Movement Speed/Sprint Speed etc. Your solution to give equal module/weapon/equipment based on a tier level must weigh all options of the suit encompassed with racial benefit, as well as the disadvantage. Each logi suit has its advantages, its just a matter of how you use it. Cal logi has its place just as much as gal logi, the same with the min and amarr. Understand that the game has shifted to where each player has been put into a box in terms of suit and weapon cohesion; General use of anything outside this law will be limited to an extent. Every logistics suit is situational, not general in use.
My first guess after reading that was that you are a troll, but it you were being serious and read the entire post before making this reply, please get professional mental help.
MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill AKA Enkouyami (Main PSN).
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4966
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Posted - 2014.12.22 15:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx wrote:...
The problem I see here is where you don't calculate actual total HP/CPU/PG/Stamina/Stamina Recovery Rate/Movement Speed/Sprint Speed etc. Your solution to give equal module/weapon/equipment based on a tier level must weigh all options of the suit encompassed with racial benefit, as well as the disadvantage. Each logi suit has its advantages, its just a matter of how you use it. Cal logi has its place just as much as gal logi, the same with the min and amarr. Understand that the game has shifted to where each player has been put into a box in terms of suit and weapon cohesion; General use of anything outside this law will be limited to an extent. Every logistics suit is situational, not general in use. My first guess after reading that was that you are a troll, but it you were being serious and read the entire post before making this reply, please get professional mental help.
lol.
To restate this in a way that explains to the bunny why (s)he is wrong, it's because by tying the slot progression to be like the assault counterpart of the same race, you keep the speed-hp ratios, base stats, etc, consistent. You don't need to start messing around with the other stuff for the purposes of this proposal.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
567
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Posted - 2014.12.24 21:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
IIRC someone suggested in an earlier suggestion that both Amarr and Caldari should have the sidearm.
Why? Because they use static equipment as their primary. This means that their equipment interaction is designed to be lower than Gallente and Minmatar, who will constantly use their scanners/repair tool.
And now with bandwith, it's definitely not possible to just switch suits. Not that that was ever a good thing to be able to do.
Just throwing this out. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1787
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Posted - 2014.12.25 12:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I think Logis of all tiers should have 3-4 equipment slots depending on their race.
I agree. A logi isn't truly a logi until he fits at least 3 pieces of equipment. And it wouldn't be too hard to fit either. A proto suit is quite capable of fitting full proto. Its not going to be a big issue for a standard logi to fit full standard equipment.
All Hail Legion
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
167
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Posted - 2014.12.25 14:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Instead of gimping the Amar logi in some fashion to make up for getting a sidearm slot, all four logis should have a sidearm/equipment slot, in which a sidearm or equipment can be placed, and selected with the weaponswitch button instead of the god-awful equipment selection wheel. Two birds; one stone.
If you really want to preserve the unique Amar flavor, give it some kind of fitting bonus for sidearms. I steadily move toward thinking that slot limits are less and less important, since cpu/pg and isk costs are actually pretty effective limits/disincentives.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
2338
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Posted - 2014.12.25 17:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
CELESTA AUNGM wrote: Patience, fellas. Uprising 1.9 was an interesting surprise, and I think also a turning point that got some serious luggage out of the way, and proved something in CCP (something they won't discuss with us, because it's their private company business). Whatever was behind it, I think 1.9 is being considered enough of an acheivement, and that's why CCP is now buzzing up on every discussion regarding Equipment-control, team-versus-squad data, detection of vehicles in HUD scanning, and Logi vehicle reintroduction. ...It's very close. Logistics is finally the next target being worked on now. Finally. I have spent the last six visits to the game, JUST re-visiting and re-assessing my artificer-gear and the clumsy immitation-logi fit-outs I had been resorting to on my vehcles. No combat whatsoever... just sweeping the equipment cobwebs out of my fittings menu. Sorting out the discardable fits. Because I can taste it. The "Logistics" return is now being dev-ed. No 'soon' ... it's finally NOW. The patience has paid off. Now we only have to keep cross-fingers that we don't "request-list" the poor devs right into fouling it all up, LOL!!
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The-Errorist
966
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Posted - 2015.01.21 09:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Specifics and a solution to which logi(s) should get a sidearm.
MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill AKA Enkouyami (Main PSN).
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Velvet Overkill
SI6MA
Learning Alliance
132
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Posted - 2015.03.12 13:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
This is The-Errorist's main.
I have a spreadsheet with a tab with these non-radical changes with tabs with the letter "A" suffix.
Tabs with letter "B" suffix has logistics split into two types, and the "best progression fixes" is something else you can read about here. |
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback.
4814
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Posted - 2015.03.20 16:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
At this point I think we need to say screw slot progression entirely. Give all suits the slots of their proto tier variant and let CPU/PG be what varies them.
Essentially it's like baking in CPU/PG bonuses to the skills while at the same time maintaining the increasing ISK cost of higher tier suits.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12198
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Posted - 2015.03.20 16:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:At this point I think we need to say screw slot progression entirely. Give all suits the slots of their proto tier variant and let CPU/PG be what varies them.
Essentially it's like baking in CPU/PG bonuses to the skills while at the same time maintaining the increasing ISK cost of higher tier suits.
Heard this idea before, and I still love it.
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Alena Ventrallis
Ahrendee Inc.
Negative-Feedback
2768
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Posted - 2015.03.20 17:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
I would rather the AmLogi give up an equipment for the sidearm, not a high/low slot.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
940
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Posted - 2015.03.20 22:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
Leave the slot progression alone, replicating assault layouts will simply empower replicating assault loadouts. We're a different class with a different primary purpose, our current layout continue to reinforce this.
Give the CalLogi a sidearm.
Return the CPU that was removed to stifle slayerlogi use to the CalLogi.
Buff all Logi suit base stats, check the CPM Logistics thread for a couple worthwhile sheets with ideas (not to say the ones here are bad) along these lines.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12204
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Posted - 2015.03.20 22:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Leave the slot progression alone, replicating assault layouts will simply empower replicating assault loadouts. We're a different class with a different primary purpose, our current layout continue to reinforce this.
Give the CalLogi a sidearm.
Return the CPU that was removed to stifle slayerlogi use to the CalLogi.
Buff all Logi suit base stats, check the CPM Logistics thread for a couple worthwhile sheets with ideas (not to say the ones here are bad) along these lines.
No, it won't replicate assault logis. Assaults have more base HP, more speed, and bonuses that make their weapons better. Your concern is unfounded, and the Minmatar logi proves that (it's already mirroring the assault counterpart). Even if it was a valid concern (and it isn't), progression between different logis is wildly inconsistent, and requires reform.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
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Posted - 2015.03.21 07:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access.
My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid.
Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12215
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Posted - 2015.03.21 19:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access.
My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid.
Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O.
I think you missed my point. Logi slot progression is not even consistent with OTHER LOGIS. I illustrated this with the inter-tier comparison in the OP; It's a random mess that shows no sort of planning. I recommend you reread the OP.
Minmatar logis rarely poses a genuinely offensive threat, and are rarely ever seen as frontline fighters in my experience, so I'm honestly not sure where you're getting that they're great at being assaults from.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5555
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Posted - 2015.03.21 19:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
The Assault's progression from Standard to Proto and between races themselves is quite good. You can still easily match the Logistics slot layout to the Assault (Proto Logis pretty much do this already) and end up with a very clean progression.
Effectiveness in direct combat can be controlled with speed, regen, base HP, and other secondary attributes. But as for the slots, I've yet to see a good reason to not simply mirror the other Medium Frame, the Assault.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
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Posted - 2015.03.21 23:57:00 -
[42] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access.
My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid.
Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O.
I think you missed my point. Logi slot progression is not even consistent with OTHER LOGIS. I illustrated this with the inter-tier comparison in the OP; It's a random mess that shows no sort of planning. I recommend you reread the OP. Minmatar logis rarely poses a genuinely offensive threat, and are rarely ever seen as frontline fighters in my experience, so I'm honestly not sure where you're getting that they're great at being assaults from.
No, I understand your point. And agreed with the premise to it, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion. Your premise is Logi progression is wonky and inconsistent level to level as well as wonky and inconsistent compared racially within the role as well relative to whats become design standard for the other classes. I completely what you seeing and where you coking from in seeingnit that way. Your conclusion is to "normalize" these layouts by mirroring them to the existing assault layouts. This is what do not agree with.
My reasoning is very simple, and evidently so simple that it's being consistently overlooked: Logi progression is inconsistent within the class and inconsistent to the assault template but So What ?
Do the existing slot layouts create some sort of OP fitting ability?
Do the existing slot layouts create gamebreaking gameplay capability?
Do the existing slot layouts create exploitative [modular] fittings?
Do the existing slot layouts produce an overwhelmingly OP or imbalanced role class?
The obvious answer to all of the above is No, so the idea of scrapping what currently does none of that for layouts which could is a also a No.
True, the progression path is assymetric and non-linear. But that is not always a bad thing . It just looks bad (compared to the assault roles) on paper. In actual use, for doing actual Logistics work, these layouts are fine. Do each of the suits have their racial and role nuances? Sure. Does each of those frames take getting used to and specific SP investments to maximise their capabilities? Indeed. Aee these investments different than whats done to maximise any of the other suits? Yes, as it should be.
Logistics is a separate class, with a separate roles, roles plural. It does not need homogenization for any reason EXCEPT that it isn't consistent with the other frames' progressions. Which ultimately doesn't matter since the roles the suits are relied on to fill aren't consistent with the other frames' roles either.
TL;DR
Layout progressions don't match, BFD.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
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Posted - 2015.03.22 00:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:The Assault's progression from Standard to Proto and between races themselves is quite good. You can still easily match the Logistics slot layout to the Assault (Proto Logis pretty much do this already) and end up with a very clean progression.
Effectiveness in direct combat can be controlled with speed, regen, base HP, and other secondary attributes. But as for the slots, I've yet to see a good reason to not simply mirror the other Medium Frame, the Assault.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
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Posted - 2015.03.22 02:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
Oh, and btw, the Minmatar Logistics suit was never mirrored to the Minmatar Assault.
The Minmatar Assault was mirrored to the Logi .
Hi, my name is el OPERATOR and I am addicted to italicizing XD
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Nevyn Tazinas
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
62
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Posted - 2015.03.22 03:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
As always when this topic comes up.
Slots should be the same at all tiers. Basic & Adv should get the slot layout of the proto suits. This will do MASSIVE amounts to making proto stomping no longer such a big deal and giving people flexibility to start with.
It will also make fitting skills matter for fitting basic suits, PG & CPU modules useful for fitting basic suits and so forth.
As well as allowing logi of all levels to actually carry the required equipment to do a competent job as a logi. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12218
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 04:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
No, I understand your point. And agreed with the premise to it, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion. Your premise is Logi progression is wonky and inconsistent level to level as well as wonky and inconsistent compared racially within the role as well as relative to whats become design standard for the other classes. I completely see what you are seeing and where you are coming from in seeingn it that way. Your conclusion is to "normalize" these layouts by mirroring them to the existing assault layouts. This is what do not agree with.
My reasoning is very simple, and evidently so simple that it's being consistently overlooked: Logi progression is inconsistent within the class and inconsistent to the assault template but So What ?
Do the existing slot layouts create some sort of OP fitting ability?
Do the existing slot layouts create gamebreaking gameplay capability?
Do the existing slot layouts create exploitative [modular] fittings?
Do the existing slot layouts produce an overwhelmingly OP or imbalanced role class?
The obvious answer to all of the above is No, so the idea of scrapping what currently does none of that for layouts which could is a also a No.
True, the progression path is assymetric and non-linear. But that is not always a bad thing . It just looks bad (compared to the assault roles) on paper. In actual use, for doing actual Logistics work, these layouts are fine. Do each of the suits have their racial and role nuances? Sure. Does each of those frames take getting used to and specific SP investments to maximise their capabilities? Indeed. Aee these investments different than whats done to maximise any of the other suits? Yes, as it should be.
Logistics is a separate class, with a separate roles, roles plural. It does not need homogenization for any reason EXCEPT that it isn't consistent with the other frames' progressions. Which ultimately doesn't matter since the roles the suits are relied on to fill aren't consistent with the other frames' roles either.
TL;DR
Layout progressions don't match, BFD.
You are right that the current slot layouts aren't OP or gamebreaking, but they are problematic for the complete opposite reason. They are just bad.
While logis shouldn't be as tanky as assaults for obvious reasons, but they should at least have a certain level of survivabilty, as all suits should. Logis lack this basic survivability in various tiers, and that is part of the reason logis are so rare on the battlefield right now.
And as for the so what? There is no reason why its fair that one race's logi at a certain tier should be purely superior to another race's logi at the same tier. It is a balance issue. Why would a new player looking at a standard Minmatar logi with 4 module slots ever consider the standard Gallente logi with only 2 slots and same number of equipment? Sure, there is Gallente logi's bonus, but each logi has a unique bonus anyway. Its bad balance to have something simply just be better than another instead of just different.
It is broken, and it needs fixing.
el OPERATOR wrote:Oh, and btw, the Minmatar Logistics suit was never mirrored to the Minmatar Assault.
The Minmatar Assault was mirrored to the Logi .
Hi, my name is el OPERATOR and I am addicted to italicizing XD
What difference does it make which one had the slot layout first? The slot overhaul which Rattati did made all assaults have 8 module slots at proto, and all Minmatar suits have equal high and lot slots; not a deliberate attempt to copy the logi. Frankly I don't see why you made such a space-consuming post just for the sake of being nit-picky.
Nevyn Tazinas wrote:As always when this topic comes up.
Slots should be the same at all tiers. Basic & Adv should get the slot layout of the proto suits. This will do MASSIVE amounts to making proto stomping no longer such a big deal and giving people flexibility to start with.
It will also make fitting skills matter for fitting basic suits, PG & CPU modules useful for fitting basic suits and so forth.
As well as allowing logi of all levels to actually carry the required equipment to do a competent job as a logi.
While I agree with the idea, work would still need to be done on the logis because they're not exactly balanced at proto.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Cypher Nil
Fireteam Tempest
94
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Posted - 2015.03.22 04:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:The Trello board entry for this to vote on.A long while ago logis were on the list of things that needed a serious overhaul, Rattati had spreadsheets and plans of slot normalization, but ultimately nothing came of it. It really needs to be fixed though, because it's pretty ridiculous. I haven't been able to play Dust in months because of certain real life situations, so I didn't feel I'm qualified to be talking about such large issues, but none of it has changed since last I played, and just knowing nothing change makes me feel this compulsion to speak out about it. I will explain what the problem is below. STANDARD AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm. GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm. In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents: The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.
ADVANCED AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. Advanced logis comparison. At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.
PROTOTYPE AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. Prototype logis comparison. The Gallente and Minmatar logis are the norm with 8 modules, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
At standard tier the Amarr logi started out as one of the 2 best logis, but at prototype level it's probably the worst. It has a sidearm, but at the cost of having less equipment AND having less modules. Basically the Amarr sacrifices twice for the sidearm when ideally it should only have to sacrifice once (either 1 less module OR 1 less equipment, but not both penalties). It should also be noted that the only difference between the advanced and prototype Amarr logis is just 1 module slot.
The Caldari logi started with only 3 module slots at standard, yet at prototype it has 9 module slots. While 9 module slots can be considered balanced because it is a the cost of having less equipment than the GA and MN logis, it does make progression very strange.
[SOLUTION]: my proposals are intentionally general and not specific because I don't feel like making a spreadsheets, and this thread is more about calling attention to the issue again. I also don't want to get in a lengthy debate about the specifics. Logis don't necessarily have to be placed in a very rigid progression system, but just give them the same number of total slots for a certain tier. By this I mean when you add up light weapon slot, sidearm slot, grenade slot, equipment slots, module slots (highs and lows) for logis of the same tier, you should get the same total number. This gives a lot of leeway, and allows some logis to have sidearms, or have more modules or equipment than others, but in an ultimately balanced way.
Be consistent. Don't have a certain racial logi start out completely superior in every way just to have them be inferior at prototype, or have a logi start out with poor module slot count just to have them have the most module slots at prototype.
Minmatar logi should be seen as a shining example for progression between tiers, and for being competent slot counts.
EDIT: If I were to suggest a specific solution. I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts (proposed in the comments a lot).
The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange.
All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype.
These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier.
If anyone doesn't think there is a problem, go compare a standard Gallente logi to a Minmatar one. @Rattati: any plans to have another try at this?
While I do see the issues on some of these more extreme differences between each suit I do think your grossly oversimplifying things, I'm sure the power and CPU stats on each suit as well as shield regen/armor regen.movement speed must factor into the balance calculations somewhere? simply counting the number of slots can't be the only stats that factor into balance
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5558
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Posted - 2015.03.22 04:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
The assault progression works just fine for assaults, and its simplicity no doubt works exceptionally well for those players looking for assault type roles and gameplay, run+gun. Yes, the Logis could be matched to this, but for what? Simplicity? Logistics isn't simple, if you're a player looking for simple then move along, try the assault class or maybe scouts.
Effectiveness is direct combat already is controlled by the base stats . Slot changes aren't neccessary to do this.
Put it this way, maybe my perspective will be clearer. Algorithmically, if you will, the existing slot layouts are constants . They are established, and within the game their effects are proven . There is no question as to how they may interplay with the rest of the game meta, micro or macro. Any question as how they perform is easily answered because they already exist, balanced and in full, with all other existing game components and assets.
Logis need some modest buffing tweaks to their base stats, maybe some secondary or other extra tiering bonuses and that's all . Logis currently, neccessary buffing aside, are relatively balanced and productive both in game and in the overall gameplay meta. They aren't broken, they aren't OP. They're UnderPowered for certain situations that they shouldn't be but the resolution to that is the modest base buffs, not a total rewrite.
Could you and Rattati and CCP totally redraw them from the ground up and make them everything they should be? Optimistically, sure, of course you could. Realistically? Based on past redraw attempts of everything else ever **** no, it won't happen. What will happen (based on the history of everything) is they'll be redrawn, the balance gains that have existed will be lost, the suits will be broken and abused, then nerfed into the 7th circle of Dis. Ask Adipem Nothi what I'm talking about, he'll tell you all about it and the past bunch of months with scouts. The QQ will continue and the buff-nerf merry-go-round will continue. Problems never solved, just rearranged.
You say you see no good reason to not mirror the Assaults, yet the best reasoning ever when it comes to troubleshooting, removal or replacement of anything is right in front of you:
It isn't broken so it doesn't need fixing .
Except that tiers within the logistics are not even properly equivalent between races. Progression between tiers within a race isn't even consistent. There is clearly a complete lack of consistency in design, and at least to me, it appears that slots were simply assigned without a clear, large picture plan on how progression was supposed to work.
I get what you're saying, but consider the fact that I approach this sort of thing from a top down approach. If current Logistics work with existing slot layouts, lets look at it from the top, at proto.
Gallente
Logistics: 3/5
Assault: 3/5
Minmatar
Logistics: 4/4
Assault: 4/4
Caldari
Logistics: 5/4
(but lack of CPU typically leads to a required low slot being consumed by a CPU Enhancer, making the slot layout effectively 5/3)
Assault: 5/3
Amarr:
Logistics: 3/4
Assault: 3/5
So if Logistics are performing as they should, and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
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DJINN Jecture
MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH
292
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 07:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Can we have a slight HP buff as well, I agree the slot progression is terri-bad but I feel it wouldn't be as bad with a bit of tank to go along with the "my meat shield is dead because he walked around a corner and I want to pick him up" philosophy.
-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!
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Haerr
Nos Nothi
2585
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Posted - 2015.03.22 09:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
+1 |
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 00:43:00 -
[51] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced!
Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them!
The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
941
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 01:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
You are right that the current slot layouts aren't OP or gamebreaking, but they are problematic for the complete opposite reason. They are just bad.
This makes no sense. They are "bad" but aren't OP or gamebreaking. The only thing that anyone, including you, has shown that makes them "bad" is they aren't "consistent" with other classes' progression schemes. But in NOT being consistent, there is no ill-effect to them in-game, in use. No ill-effect, then no need for a redraw.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
While logis shouldn't be as tanky as assaults for obvious reasons, but they should at least have a certain level of survivabilty, as all suits should. Logis lack this basic survivability in various tiers, and that is part of the reason logis are so rare on the battlefield right now.
The Logi survivability buff can be overwhelmingly achieved, with easily and accurately predicable results for the class and the game as a whole by simple modest base stat buffing.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
And as for the so what? There is no reason why its fair that one race's logi at a certain tier should be purely superior to another race's logi at the same tier. It is a balance issue. Why would a new player looking at a standard Minmatar logi with 4 module slots ever consider the standard Gallente logi with only 2 slots and same number of equipment? Sure, there is Gallente logi's bonus, but each logi has a unique bonus anyway. Its bad balance to have something simply just be better than another instead of just different.
In Logistics largely, equipment is everything and bonuses are integral to maximising that equipment. There's enough difference in the base stats between all the Logis to surpass any perceived "bad balance" originating in slot differences. Buff those stats to address the few (tho significant) shortcomings the class has and move on.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
What difference does it make which one had the slot layout first? The slot overhaul which Rattati did made all assaults have 8 module slots at proto, and all Minmatar suits have equal high and lot slots; not a deliberate attempt to copy the logi. Frankly I don't see why you made such a space-consuming post just for the sake of being nit-picky.
The difference is that you and others, here in this thread as well as in other threads and places, like to bandy about that the MinLogi has the MinAssault layout and use it to exemplify this idea that, "well, look how well the MinLogi does with it!" as basis for converting the other Logi layouts to Assault layouts. When, in actuality, that isn't the case since it was the MinAssault that was converted, not the Logi and that simple fact makes a huge difference in the validity of your assertion.
Its not "nit-picking", it's introducing a fact whose circumstances you are misconstruing to bolster your conclusion.
edit: I pretty obviously lost track of the quoting in there somewhere, seems clear enough tho who is saying what
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5562
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 01:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced! Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them! The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm.
Well, I personally disagree and feel that if the ratio of high to low varies as drastically as it does between tiers, that is problematic. I personally feel that the Standard and Advanced are not performing properly, offer uneven performance between races within each tier, and fail to maintain any semblance of a consistent design, both in terms of race and function. Obviously we disagree on this point, but I've stated my reasoning as have you, so we'll leave it to Rattati and the CPM to decide on what is more appropriate.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
942
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 02:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced! Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them! The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm. Well, I personally disagree and feel that if the ratio of high to low varies as drastically as it does between tiers, that is problematic. I personally feel that the Standard and Advanced are not performing properly, offer uneven performance between races within each tier, and fail to maintain any semblance of a consistent design, both in terms of race and function. Obviously we disagree on this point, but I've stated my reasoning as have you, so we'll leave it to Rattati and the CPM to decide on what is more appropriate.
Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5564
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 17:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from.
I wont deny that you have more experience in the suits than I do, but also consider that the data I'm working off of is extensively based off of my conversations with many different very experienced Logistics players and their own personal experiences, my own personal experience is just a part of the data set I'm working with. So in actuality the main difference between our two viewpoints is likely that yours is based off of extensive data from one person's perspective whereas mine is based off of many.
So yes you could likely consider me a 'numbers guy' but also not that as a numbers guy, I'm under the belief that a large sample size is more accurate than a small one, which is why I will take my own personal experiences into account but largely based off of data collected from others. And so while we disagree on a fundamental level, understand that my belief is based off of the experience of many other players, and not just my own.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
942
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 20:32:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from.
I wont deny that you have more experience in the suits than I do, but also consider that the data I'm working off of is extensively based off of my conversations with many different very experienced Logistics players and their own personal experiences, my own personal experience is just a part of the data set I'm working with. So in actuality the main difference between our two viewpoints is likely that yours is based off of extensive data from one person's perspective whereas mine is based off of many. So yes you could likely consider me a 'numbers guy' but also not that as a numbers guy, I'm under the belief that a large sample size is more accurate than a small one, which is why I will take my own personal experiences into account but largely based off of data collected from others. And so while we disagree on a fundamental level, understand that my belief is based off of the experience of many other players, and not just my own.
Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis .
Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine.
I can't emphasize enough that while many people say the existing Logi suit progression is "bad" NO ONE can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. If anything, since all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall there's more reason, despite whatever the popularity of the conclusion, to not mess with the slot layouts and just expedite the base stat buffs.
Base stat buffing also being amongst the most widely held opinons (but with factual basis, from performance in game) as to "what to do about Logis".
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5567
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 23:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis .
Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine.
Except what you state is also your personal opinion. Unless you feel that your own singular opinion holds more weight than the opinions of others. You stating that the current progression is working fine is in fact, your opinion. Others stating that they feel the current progression is no working properly in fact, their opinion. So at the end of the day, everything stated by players in indeed, an opinion.
What would be factual information is actual usage rates, WP per death rates, ect. but as far as I know, that information for Logis has not been released to the the public, including yourself. So everything you state, is still completely your own personal opinion, and that's fine. So in reality it comes a difference between your opinion and the opinion of others. Hopefully Rattati and team can take a look at both the collective opinions, as well as actual data, and come to a conclusion about what should be done.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
942
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 03:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
...NO ONE [except CCP, maybe] can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. [Besides] all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall
Soo...Rattati, where we at with those base stat buffs Cross has been on about?
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
23017
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 07:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis .
Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine.
You could have stated your opinion here more simply by saying 'Your majority opinion is wrong and my opinion is right'.
Quote:
I can't emphasize enough that while many people say the existing Logi suit progression is "bad" NO ONE can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. If anything, since all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall there's more reason, despite whatever the popularity of the conclusion, to not mess with the slot layouts and just expedite the base stat buffs.
Why not?
There's plenty of data for it.
Quote:
Base stat buffing also being amongst the most widely held opinons (but with factual basis, from performance in game) as to "what to do about Logis".
I'm curious as to where you're getting your 'factual basis' from when you have already decided that there is no data backing up slot changes.
Gallente Guide
"More like a ban farm amirite" - CCP Frame
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
942
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 16:37:00 -
[60] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis .
Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine.
You could have stated your opinion here more simply by saying 'Your majority opinion is wrong and my opinion is right'. Quote:
I can't emphasize enough that while many people say the existing Logi suit progression is "bad" NO ONE can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. If anything, since all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall there's more reason, despite whatever the popularity of the conclusion, to not mess with the slot layouts and just expedite the base stat buffs.
Why not? There's plenty of data for it. Quote:
Base stat buffing also being amongst the most widely held opinons (but with factual basis, from performance in game) as to "what to do about Logis".
I'm curious as to where you're getting your 'factual basis' from when you have already decided that there is no data backing up slot changes.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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