DUST Search - [Feedback] Logi progression is awful

Pokey Dravon wrote:

el OPERATOR wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.

Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced!

Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them!

The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm.

Well, I personally disagree and feel that if the ratio of high to low varies as drastically as it does between tiers, that is problematic. I personally feel that the Standard and Advanced are not performing properly, offer uneven performance between races within each tier, and fail to maintain any semblance of a consistent design, both in terms of race and function. Obviously we disagree on this point, but I've stated my reasoning as have you, so we'll leave it to Rattati and the CPM to decide on what is more appropriate.

Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.


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el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 940	Posted - 2015.03.20 22:29:00 - [1] - Quote Leave the slot progression alone, replicating assault layouts will simply empower replicating assault loadouts. We're a different class with a different primary purpose, our current layout continue to reinforce this. Give the CalLogi a sidearm. Return the CPU that was removed to stifle slayerlogi use to the CalLogi. Buff all Logi suit base stats, check the CPM Logistics thread for a couple worthwhile sheets with ideas (not to say the ones here are bad) along these lines. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.21 07:44:00 - [2] - Quote Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access. My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid. Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.21 23:57:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access. My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid. Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O. I think you missed my point. Logi slot progression is not even consistent with OTHER LOGIS. I illustrated this with the inter-tier comparison in the OP; It's a random mess that shows no sort of planning. I recommend you reread the OP. Minmatar logis rarely poses a genuinely offensive threat, and are rarely ever seen as frontline fighters in my experience, so I'm honestly not sure where you're getting that they're great at being assaults from. No, I understand your point. And agreed with the premise to it, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion. Your premise is Logi progression is wonky and inconsistent level to level as well as wonky and inconsistent compared racially within the role as well relative to whats become design standard for the other classes. I completely what you seeing and where you coking from in seeingnit that way. Your conclusion is to "normalize" these layouts by mirroring them to the existing assault layouts. This is what do not agree with. My reasoning is very simple, and evidently so simple that it's being consistently overlooked: Logi progression is inconsistent within the class and inconsistent to the assault template but So What ? Do the existing slot layouts create some sort of OP fitting ability? Do the existing slot layouts create gamebreaking gameplay capability? Do the existing slot layouts create exploitative [modular] fittings? Do the existing slot layouts produce an overwhelmingly OP or imbalanced role class? The obvious answer to all of the above is No, so the idea of scrapping what currently does none of that for layouts which could is a also a No. True, the progression path is assymetric and non-linear. But that is not always a bad thing . It just looks bad (compared to the assault roles) on paper. In actual use, for doing actual Logistics work, these layouts are fine. Do each of the suits have their racial and role nuances? Sure. Does each of those frames take getting used to and specific SP investments to maximise their capabilities? Indeed. Aee these investments different than whats done to maximise any of the other suits? Yes, as it should be. Logistics is a separate class, with a separate roles, roles plural. It does not need homogenization for any reason EXCEPT that it isn't consistent with the other frames' progressions. Which ultimately doesn't matter since the roles the suits are relied on to fill aren't consistent with the other frames' roles either. TL;DR Layout progressions don't match, BFD. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.22 00:08:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The Assault's progression from Standard to Proto and between races themselves is quite good. You can still easily match the Logistics slot layout to the Assault (Proto Logis pretty much do this already) and end up with a very clean progression. Effectiveness in direct combat can be controlled with speed, regen, base HP, and other secondary attributes. But as for the slots, I've yet to see a good reason to not simply mirror the other Medium Frame, the Assault. reserved Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.22 02:13:00 - [5] - Quote Oh, and btw, the Minmatar Logistics suit was never mirrored to the Minmatar Assault. The Minmatar Assault was mirrored to the Logi . Hi, my name is el OPERATOR and I am addicted to italicizing XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:43:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers. Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced! Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them! The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 941	Posted - 2015.03.23 01:18:00 - [7] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You are right that the current slot layouts aren't OP or gamebreaking, but they are problematic for the complete opposite reason. They are just bad. This makes no sense. They are "bad" but aren't OP or gamebreaking. The only thing that anyone, including you, has shown that makes them "bad" is they aren't "consistent" with other classes' progression schemes. But in NOT being consistent, there is no ill-effect to them in-game, in use. No ill-effect, then no need for a redraw. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: While logis shouldn't be as tanky as assaults for obvious reasons, but they should at least have a certain level of survivabilty, as all suits should. Logis lack this basic survivability in various tiers, and that is part of the reason logis are so rare on the battlefield right now. The Logi survivability buff can be overwhelmingly achieved, with easily and accurately predicable results for the class and the game as a whole by simple modest base stat buffing. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: And as for the so what? There is no reason why its fair that one race's logi at a certain tier should be purely superior to another race's logi at the same tier. It is a balance issue. Why would a new player looking at a standard Minmatar logi with 4 module slots ever consider the standard Gallente logi with only 2 slots and same number of equipment? Sure, there is Gallente logi's bonus, but each logi has a unique bonus anyway. Its bad balance to have something simply just be better than another instead of just different. In Logistics largely, equipment is everything and bonuses are integral to maximising that equipment. There's enough difference in the base stats between all the Logis to surpass any perceived "bad balance" originating in slot differences. Buff those stats to address the few (tho significant) shortcomings the class has and move on. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: What difference does it make which one had the slot layout first? The slot overhaul which Rattati did made all assaults have 8 module slots at proto, and all Minmatar suits have equal high and lot slots; not a deliberate attempt to copy the logi. Frankly I don't see why you made such a space-consuming post just for the sake of being nit-picky. The difference is that you and others, here in this thread as well as in other threads and places, like to bandy about that the MinLogi has the MinAssault layout and use it to exemplify this idea that, "well, look how well the MinLogi does with it!" as basis for converting the other Logi layouts to Assault layouts. When, in actuality, that isn't the case since it was the MinAssault that was converted, not the Logi and that simple *fact* makes a huge difference in the validity of your assertion. Its not "nit-picking", it's introducing a *fact* whose circumstances you are misconstruing to bolster your conclusion. edit: I pretty obviously lost track of the quoting in there somewhere, seems clear enough tho who is saying what Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 02:12:00 - [8] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers. Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced! Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them! The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm. Well, I personally disagree and feel that if the ratio of high to low varies as drastically as it does between tiers, that is problematic. I personally feel that the Standard and Advanced are not performing properly, offer uneven performance between races within each tier, and fail to maintain any semblance of a consistent design, both in terms of race and function. Obviously we disagree on this point, but I've stated my reasoning as have you, so we'll leave it to Rattati and the CPM to decide on what is more appropriate. Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 20:32:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from. I wont deny that you have more experience in the suits than I do, but also consider that the data I'm working off of is extensively based off of my conversations with many different very experienced Logistics players and their own personal experiences, my own personal experience is just a part of the data set I'm working with. So in actuality the main difference between our two viewpoints is likely that yours is based off of extensive data from one person's perspective whereas mine is based off of many. So yes you could likely consider me a 'numbers guy' but also not that as a numbers guy, I'm under the belief that a large sample size is more accurate than a small one, which is why I will take my own personal experiences into account but largely based off of data collected from others. And so while we disagree on a fundamental level, understand that my belief is based off of the experience of many other players, and not just my own. Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis . Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine. I can't emphasize enough that while many people say the existing Logi suit progression is "bad" NO ONE can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. If anything, since all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall there's more reason, despite whatever the popularity of the conclusion, to not mess with the slot layouts and just expedite the base stat buffs. Base stat buffing also being amongst the most widely held opinons (but with factual basis, from performance in game) as to "what to do about Logis". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.24 03:49:00 - [10] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ...NO ONE [except CCP, maybe] can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. [Besides] all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall Soo...Rattati, where we at with those base stat buffs Cross has been on about? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 942	Posted - 2015.03.26 16:37:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis . Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine. You could have stated your opinion here more simply by saying 'Your majority opinion is wrong and my opinion is right'. Quote: I can't emphasize enough that while many people say the existing Logi suit progression is "bad" NO ONE can show a basis, an actual in-game imbalance or indominatable over-powering condition, created by the layout that requires rescripting them. If anything, since all the rest of the various fixes, patches and ninja-tweaks game-wide have gone on with the existing layouts AND the game is largely balanced overall there's more reason, despite whatever the popularity of the conclusion, to not mess with the slot layouts and just expedite the base stat buffs. Why not? There's plenty of data for it. Quote: Base stat buffing also being amongst the most widely held opinons (but with factual basis, from performance in game) as to "what to do about Logis". I'm curious as to where you're getting your 'factual basis' from when you have already decided that there is no data backing up slot changes. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.