|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3976
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 15:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been harping on making Logi progression match Assault progression for some time now. The Assault progression is very solid, and as you have pointed out, the Logi progression....isn't. In actuality the Proto Logis, aside from some slot tweaking are not *that* bad, so converting them over to properly match the Assaults won't be too hard. Besides in the case of the Cal Logi with its stupid 5/4 system, typically one of those low slots is filled with a CPU extender anyways, so just remove the 4th low and buff CPU accordingly.
I'd also like to maintain that the Cal Logi should either match the Gal and Min equipment count, or have a sidearm to compensate for lack of a 4th equipment. I'd probably vote for the former over the latter personally. And yes, at the very least all STD Logis should have 3 equipment so that all logis at any given moment have more equipment than a Scout.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5555
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 19:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Assault's progression from Standard to Proto and between races themselves is quite good. You can still easily match the Logistics slot layout to the Assault (Proto Logis pretty much do this already) and end up with a very clean progression.
Effectiveness in direct combat can be controlled with speed, regen, base HP, and other secondary attributes. But as for the slots, I've yet to see a good reason to not simply mirror the other Medium Frame, the Assault.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5558
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 04:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote: The assault progression works just fine for assaults, and its simplicity no doubt works exceptionally well for those players looking for assault type roles and gameplay, run+gun. Yes, the Logis could be matched to this, but for what? Simplicity? Logistics isn't simple, if you're a player looking for simple then move along, try the assault class or maybe scouts.
Effectiveness is direct combat already is controlled by the base stats . Slot changes aren't neccessary to do this.
Put it this way, maybe my perspective will be clearer. Algorithmically, if you will, the existing slot layouts are constants . They are established, and within the game their effects are proven . There is no question as to how they may interplay with the rest of the game meta, micro or macro. Any question as how they perform is easily answered because they already exist, balanced and in full, with all other existing game components and assets. Logis need some modest buffing tweaks to their base stats, maybe some secondary or other extra tiering bonuses and that's all . Logis currently, neccessary buffing aside, are relatively balanced and productive both in game and in the overall gameplay meta. They aren't broken, they aren't OP. They're UnderPowered for certain situations that they shouldn't be but the resolution to that is the modest base buffs, not a total rewrite.
Could you and Rattati and CCP totally redraw them from the ground up and make them everything they should be? Optimistically, sure, of course you could. Realistically? Based on past redraw attempts of everything else ever **** no, it won't happen. What will happen (based on the history of everything) is they'll be redrawn, the balance gains that have existed will be lost, the suits will be broken and abused, then nerfed into the 7th circle of Dis. Ask Adipem Nothi what I'm talking about, he'll tell you all about it and the past bunch of months with scouts. The QQ will continue and the buff-nerf merry-go-round will continue. Problems never solved, just rearranged.
You say you see no good reason to not mirror the Assaults, yet the best reasoning ever when it comes to troubleshooting, removal or replacement of anything is right in front of you:
It isn't broken so it doesn't need fixing .
Except that tiers within the logistics are not even properly equivalent between races. Progression between tiers within a race isn't even consistent. There is clearly a complete lack of consistency in design, and at least to me, it appears that slots were simply assigned without a clear, large picture plan on how progression was supposed to work.
I get what you're saying, but consider the fact that I approach this sort of thing from a top down approach. If current Logistics work with existing slot layouts, lets look at it from the top, at proto.
Gallente Logistics: 3/5 Assault: 3/5
Minmatar Logistics: 4/4 Assault: 4/4
Caldari Logistics: 5/4 (but lack of CPU typically leads to a required low slot being consumed by a CPU Enhancer, making the slot layout effectively 5/3) Assault: 5/3
Amarr: Logistics: 3/4 Assault: 3/5
So if Logistics are performing as they should, and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5562
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 01:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
So if Logistics are performing as they should , and they already match the Assault layout at proto in 3 our of 4 instances, doesn't that intrinsically imply that matching the Assault layout indeed makes Logistics work properly? Going under that assumption that they are working properly at Proto, then the same logic should be applied to the lower tiers.
Thing is, they not only are properly functional at Proto, they are also properly functional at Standard AND Advanced, where the slot layouts aren't identical to assault frames. The neccessary buffing for improving their overall survivability and performance is modest, is in their hp, movement speed, cpu/pg allocations and their bonus spreads (bonuses to non-racial eq) and that is it. Slot redrawing is NOT neccessary and introduces risk into the equation of game balance and role/class performance that does NOT need to be introduced! Seriously dude, the slots aren't "broken" so please stop trying to "fix" them! The only Logi suit that needs any sort of "help"outside of the above is the CalLogi which for what it has, what it does (racial bonus) and how it does that needs a sidearm.
Well, I personally disagree and feel that if the ratio of high to low varies as drastically as it does between tiers, that is problematic. I personally feel that the Standard and Advanced are not performing properly, offer uneven performance between races within each tier, and fail to maintain any semblance of a consistent design, both in terms of race and function. Obviously we disagree on this point, but I've stated my reasoning as have you, so we'll leave it to Rattati and the CPM to decide on what is more appropriate.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5564
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 17:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote: Cool. And hopefully they'll also examine the individual usage data between us as part of determining when it comes to using these suits (all of them) who between us actually has the consistent in-game experience with them versus the out-of-game paper analysis of them. I get you're a numbers guy and Rattati has you doing his grunt work on occasion but I actually play in these frames every day. I appreciate the help you provide him, btw, don't consider the previous statement as a slight against it. Just as I hope you can appreciate where my perspective stems from.
I wont deny that you have more experience in the suits than I do, but also consider that the data I'm working off of is extensively based off of my conversations with many different very experienced Logistics players and their own personal experiences, my own personal experience is just a part of the data set I'm working with. So in actuality the main difference between our two viewpoints is likely that yours is based off of extensive data from one person's perspective whereas mine is based off of many.
So yes you could likely consider me a 'numbers guy' but also not that as a numbers guy, I'm under the belief that a large sample size is more accurate than a small one, which is why I will take my own personal experiences into account but largely based off of data collected from others. And so while we disagree on a fundamental level, understand that my belief is based off of the experience of many other players, and not just my own.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5567
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 23:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote: Majority opinion is not always the most accurate and just because an opinion is not widely shared does not make it wrong. Yes, a large sample size of opinions gives a much more accurate view of what general opinion is, however a sample of factual basis, large or small, is much more accurate insofar as determining factual basis . Voter "Exit Polling" data shows this every election cycle, the poll of exiting voters is often not accurate to what the actual votes cast determine.
Except what you state is also your personal opinion. Unless you feel that your own singular opinion holds more weight than the opinions of others. You stating that the current progression is working fine is in fact, your opinion. Others stating that they feel the current progression is no working properly in fact, their opinion. So at the end of the day, everything stated by players in indeed, an opinion.
What would be factual information is actual usage rates, WP per death rates, ect. but as far as I know, that information for Logis has not been released to the the public, including yourself. So everything you state, is still completely your own personal opinion, and that's fine. So in reality it comes a difference between your opinion and the opinion of others. Hopefully Rattati and team can take a look at both the collective opinions, as well as actual data, and come to a conclusion about what should be done.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
|
|
|