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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11623
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
A long while ago logis were on the list of things that needed a serious overhaul, Rattati had spreadsheets and plans of slot normalization, but ultimately nothing came of it. It really needs to be fixed though, because it's pretty ridiculous. I haven't been able to play Dust in months because of certain real life situations, so I didn't feel I'm qualified to be talking about such large issues, but none of it has changed since last I played, and just knowing nothing change makes me feel this compulsion to speak out about it. I will explain what the problem is below.
STANDARD AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm. GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm.
In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents: The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed and standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.
ADVANCED AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
Advanced logis comparison. At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.
PROTOTYPE AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
Prototype logis comparison. The Gallente and Minmatar logis are the norm with 8 modules, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
At standard tier the Amarr logi started out as one of the 2 best logis, but at prototype level it's probably the worst. It has a sidearm, but at the cost of having less equipment AND having less modules. Basically the Amarr sacrifices twice for the sidearm when ideally it should only have to sacrifice once (either 1 less module OR 1 less equipment, but not both penalties). It should also be noted that the only difference between the advanced and prototype Amarr logis is just 1 module slot.
The Caldari logi started with only 3 module slots at standard, yet at prototype it has 9 module slots. While 9 module slots can be considered balanced because it is a the cost of having less equipment than the GA and MN logis, it does make progression very strange.
[SOLUTION]: my proposals are intentionally general and not specific because I don't feel like making a spreadsheets, and this thread is more about calling attention to the issue again. I also don't want to get in a lengthy debate about the specifics. Logis don't necessarily have to be placed in a very rigid progression system, but just give them the same number of total slots for a certain tier. By this I mean when you add up light weapon slot, sidearm slot, grenade slot, equipment slots, module slots (highs and lows) for logis of the same tier, you should get the same total number. This gives a lot of leeway, and allows some logis to have sidearms, or have more modules or equipment than others, but in an ultimately balanced way.
Be consistent. Don't have a certain racial logi start out completely superior in every way just to have them be inferior at prototype, or have a logi start out with poor module slot count just to have them have the most module slots at prototype.
Minmatar logi should be seen as a shining example for progression between tiers, and for being competent slot counts.
If anyone doesn't think there is a problem, go compare a standard Gallente logi to a Minmatar one.
@Rattati: any plans to have another try at this?
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11625
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Just make the slot progression the same as their assault counterparts Give the Amarr 1 less slot on each tier IF you keep the sidearm
/thread That's pretty much what I would suggest if I was going to propose something specific. +1
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11699
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fix it!
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12198
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Posted - 2015.03.20 16:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:At this point I think we need to say screw slot progression entirely. Give all suits the slots of their proto tier variant and let CPU/PG be what varies them.
Essentially it's like baking in CPU/PG bonuses to the skills while at the same time maintaining the increasing ISK cost of higher tier suits. Heard this idea before, and I still love it.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12204
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Posted - 2015.03.20 22:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Leave the slot progression alone, replicating assault layouts will simply empower replicating assault loadouts. We're a different class with a different primary purpose, our current layout continue to reinforce this.
Give the CalLogi a sidearm. Return the CPU that was removed to stifle slayerlogi use to the CalLogi. Buff all Logi suit base stats, check the CPM Logistics thread for a couple worthwhile sheets with ideas (not to say the ones here are bad) along these lines. No, it won't replicate assault logis. Assaults have more base HP, more speed, and bonuses that make their weapons better. Your concern is unfounded, and the Minmatar logi proves that (it's already mirroring the assault counterpart). Even if it was a valid concern (and it isn't), progression between different logis is wildly inconsistent, and requires reform.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12215
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Posted - 2015.03.21 19:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Its not about replicating assault logis, its about replicating the existing loadouts that assaults use, with the additional benefit of the equipment slots and relative cpu/pg increase. Yes, assaults will be better at assaulting however, and the min is definitely a great example of this, an identically modded Logi will be great at assaulting and have the additional potency that comes with equipment access.
My concern is definitely not unfounded considering the history of abusive use that Logistics frames have (WPwhoring etc) so the idea of not creating a new avenue of exploitation is not invalid.
Yes, slot progression through the tiers is not consistent with what other roles have. But the other roles' primary function in most every circumstance is killing wheras the Logis' primary role is battlefield Logistics. At the end of the day they are different because they are meant to be used differently. Aligning their slot layout identically to assaults simultaneously detracts from this as it makes modding Logi frames for direct-combat roles easier. I.M.O.
I think you missed my point. Logi slot progression is not even consistent with OTHER LOGIS. I illustrated this with the inter-tier comparison in the OP; It's a random mess that shows no sort of planning. I recommend you reread the OP.
Minmatar logis rarely poses a genuinely offensive threat, and are rarely ever seen as frontline fighters in my experience, so I'm honestly not sure where you're getting that they're great at being assaults from.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12218
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Posted - 2015.03.22 04:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote: No, I understand your point. And agreed with the premise to it, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion. Your premise is Logi progression is wonky and inconsistent level to level as well as wonky and inconsistent compared racially within the role as well as relative to whats become design standard for the other classes. I completely see what you are seeing and where you are coming from in seeingn it that way. Your conclusion is to "normalize" these layouts by mirroring them to the existing assault layouts. This is what do not agree with.
My reasoning is very simple, and evidently so simple that it's being consistently overlooked: Logi progression is inconsistent within the class and inconsistent to the assault template but So What ?
Do the existing slot layouts create some sort of OP fitting ability? Do the existing slot layouts create gamebreaking gameplay capability? Do the existing slot layouts create exploitative [modular] fittings? Do the existing slot layouts produce an overwhelmingly OP or imbalanced role class?
The obvious answer to all of the above is No, so the idea of scrapping what currently does none of that for layouts which could is a also a No.
True, the progression path is assymetric and non-linear. But that is not always a bad thing . It just looks bad (compared to the assault roles) on paper. In actual use, for doing actual Logistics work, these layouts are fine. Do each of the suits have their racial and role nuances? Sure. Does each of those frames take getting used to and specific SP investments to maximise their capabilities? Indeed. Aee these investments different than whats done to maximise any of the other suits? Yes, as it should be.
Logistics is a separate class, with a separate roles, roles plural. It does not need homogenization for any reason EXCEPT that it isn't consistent with the other frames' progressions. Which ultimately doesn't matter since the roles the suits are relied on to fill aren't consistent with the other frames' roles either.
TL;DR Layout progressions don't match, BFD.
You are right that the current slot layouts aren't OP or gamebreaking, but they are problematic for the complete opposite reason. They are just bad.
While logis shouldn't be as tanky as assaults for obvious reasons, but they should at least have a certain level of survivabilty, as all suits should. Logis lack this basic survivability in various tiers, and that is part of the reason logis are so rare on the battlefield right now.
And as for the so what? There is no reason why its fair that one race's logi at a certain tier should be purely superior to another race's logi at the same tier. It is a balance issue. Why would a new player looking at a standard Minmatar logi with 4 module slots ever consider the standard Gallente logi with only 2 slots and same number of equipment? Sure, there is Gallente logi's bonus, but each logi has a unique bonus anyway. Its bad balance to have something simply just be better than another instead of just different.
It is broken, and it needs fixing.
el OPERATOR wrote:Oh, and btw, the Minmatar Logistics suit was never mirrored to the Minmatar Assault. The Minmatar Assault was mirrored to the Logi .
Hi, my name is el OPERATOR and I am addicted to italicizing XD
What difference does it make which one had the slot layout first? The slot overhaul which Rattati did made all assaults have 8 module slots at proto, and all Minmatar suits have equal high and lot slots; not a deliberate attempt to copy the logi. Frankly I don't see why you made such a space-consuming post just for the sake of being nit-picky.
Nevyn Tazinas wrote:As always when this topic comes up. Slots should be the same at all tiers. Basic & Adv should get the slot layout of the proto suits. This will do MASSIVE amounts to making proto stomping no longer such a big deal and giving people flexibility to start with. It will also make fitting skills matter for fitting basic suits, PG & CPU modules useful for fitting basic suits and so forth. As well as allowing logi of all levels to actually carry the required equipment to do a competent job as a logi. While I agree with the idea, work would still need to be done on the logis because they're not exactly balanced at proto.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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