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The breach is following the same trend as the burst HMG

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The Master Race Immortal Guides 310	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:03:00 - [61] - Quote What it is with the increased spool up time on the RR the AR is viable against it in close range it is the reason for zatera's and FAs push to revert the rail rifle along with this post. The CPM along with her guild (FA) obviously upset that something has an advantage against their fit. I hope the devs realize how perfect it is because it is obviously working as intended gk. vs. ck. long range vs cqc. I have not jumped into a match yet today hopefully they didn't give into these tryhards and revert the RR. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 663	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:48:00 - [62] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: It's the best Plasma rifle for sure, but I think it's just cause the rest aren't that great(besides the TAR, that thing is decent at medium range but awful for close range) The assault plasma rifle is ok, but is outdone by so many rifles and weapons that aren't even classified as CQC. TAR is excellent close up with skilled up Gal Assault.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2187	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:58:00 - [63] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: What it is with the increased spool up time on the RR the AR is viable against it in close range it is the reason for zatera's and FAs push to revert the rail rifle along with this post. The CPM along with her guild (FA) obviously upset that something has an advantage against their fit. I hope the devs realize how perfect it is because it is obviously working as intended gk. vs. ck. long range vs cqc. I have not jumped into a match yet today hopefully they didn't give into these tryhards and revert the RR. That's just silly. Want to know who turned me on to the BAR? Gav, an FA player.
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property 1127	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:02:00 - [64] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: What it is with the increased spool up time on the RR the AR is viable against it in close range it is the reason for zatera's and FAs push to revert the rail rifle along with this post. The CPM along with her guild (FA) obviously upset that something has an advantage against their fit. I hope the devs realize how perfect it is because it is obviously working as intended gk. vs. ck. long range vs cqc. I have not jumped into a match yet today hopefully they didn't give into these tryhards and revert the RR. That's just silly. Want to know who turned me on to the BAR? Gav, an FA player. You know what turned me on to it? Its huge, ****** ****. I just can't resist it... Seriously though? I've been maining this weapon since it got buffed, not because I actually like the weapon, but because I saw that it was going to be OP seconds after they announced its stats. Please, make my Opus pretty...
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 13768	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:24:00 - [65] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Is it supposed to be like the RR? I thought that was what the TAC was for? TAC is the scrambler m8. And burst is the CR. They were all the original 'placeholders' now considered variants. Wut...But the SCR is a high DPS, high clip...overheat based weapon that performs perfectly in CQC and at range.. The Tac needs considerable changes if it's going to be considered the alternative SCR. I agree on the CR/Burst comparison. Anyone else want to validate/contest the idea that the breach is the RR placeholder? But at the same time, both the TAR and SCR are both: -Semi Automatic (unlike BARs and RRs) -Single Shot -Mid-Long Range (90m Effective Range vs 96m Effective Range) -Short Clip Size (Relatively, at least. Without the Amarr Assault the most shots I can fire is 17-19). -Same RPM (600) If that doesn't convince you, put both on a Commando and play around with them for a bit. You'll find that they're pretty much the same except one's even better at destroying Shields, has a bit more range, and can be used as a Shotgun. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 988	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:57:00 - [66] - Quote It would seem that there's a bit of a inequity in peoples definition of a breach weapon, so let's start off with the simple definition of what 'breach' is and is not. breach: noun 1. an act of breaking or failing to observe a law, agreement, or code of conduct. 2. a gap in a wall, barrier, or defense, especially one made by an attacking army. synonyms:break, rupture, split, crack, fracture verb 1. make a gap in and break through (a wall, barrier, or defense). "the river breached its bank" synonyms:break (through), burst (through), rupture; To breach something is not necessarily to attack up close or be QCQ, to breach something simply means to crack it open. Case in point: when a police/military force 'breaches' a building, it simply means that they are busting open a door or wall. From there, that is the point in which the force 'assaults' the building. So a 'breaching' weapon in Dust is simply a weapon that has the, (usually alpha) power to crack open a hardened target regardless of range. Unfortunately from there, CCPs definition of how a breach weapon performs that function varies, but we can still take a look at a few generalities. Slower ROF: Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach SG Breach MD Breach Flaylock Every breach weapon follows this convention Equal Reload Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach MD The SG is the only breach weapon which reloads slower, and the breach flaylock actually reloads faster. Higher Per shot value: Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach SG Breach MD Breach Flaylock Every breach weapon follows this convention Lower DPS: Breach smg Breach SG Breach Flaylock Only less than half of the breach weaponry follows this convention. AR, MD, FG, and ScP all have higher than standard DPS rates Lower Clip/Mag Size: Breach AR Breach smg Breach ScP Breach SG Over half follows this convention. The FG, MD, and Flaylock all have equal clip sizes compared to the standard. Longer Range: Breach AR Breach SG This is a very muddy area as FGs, MDs, and flaylocks are launched rather than shot. Then there's the ScP and smg which both have shorter ranges. So everything here is kinda split. However it is worth mentioning that once upon a time that the smg did have longer ranges but was nerfed some time ago. I am unsure about the ScP as I did not use it. So at least the automatic variants of breach weaponry were all at one point long range weapons. Higher Damage per clip/mag Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach MD Breach Flaylock Everything bar the SG has a higher damage potential per clip/mag First off, the breach shotgun really needs some help, but that's not the point... It would seem that breach weapons are guaranteed to be defined by having a lower clip/mag size and slower ROF, offset by a higher clip/mag potential and a higher per shot value. I would also argue that they have also should have a longer range as that is how the AR and SG function, and it's how the smg, (and possibly ScP?) used to function. This is inconsequential when considering the launched variants as their operation regarding range varies so drastically from the rest. When i comes to DPS, it would seem that they also have a higher average DPS, however I feel this is a balance gaffe in regards to the AR, (and maybe ScP?) on CCPs part, we're starting to see too many pros in comparison to cons. The FG and MD are harder to use by virtue of their operation, so the deserve that damage potential there. But having an automatic weapon that deals the most DPS, hitting the hardest for every bullet, all while also having the most potential damage before reload simply is not balanced. Again, in my honest opinion, I would stress a DPS drop of 25-30 DPS less than the AR through per shot damage drop and give it 6 more meters optimal/effective. For those afraid of that range, keep in mind that even the CR, and especially the RR still has more range with what I'm proposing. Let the weapon 'breach' with lots of damage over a sustained period of time at a distance and leave the 'assaulting' DPS to the assault weapons. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19155	Posted - 2014.11.17 21:56:00 - [67] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: What it is with the increased spool up time on the RR the AR is viable against it in close range it is the reason for zatera's and FAs push to revert the rail rifle along with this post. The CPM along with her guild (FA) obviously upset that something has an advantage against their fit. I hope the devs realize how perfect it is because it is obviously working as intended gk. vs. ck. long range vs cqc. I have not jumped into a match yet today hopefully they didn't give into these tryhards and revert the RR. This is the best thing I've read all day. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2191	Posted - 2014.11.17 22:43:00 - [68] - Quote Is it really surprising that after the RR was hit with the nerfbat the closest relative in the AR family has become popular? That said, I'm not sure the gun is really that OP. Perhaps a bit of a damage or clip size nerf, but nothing really drastic.
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 179	Posted - 2014.11.18 03:09:00 - [69] - Quote Making the assault rifle more like the rail rifle wouldn't turn it into a proper breach weapon in my opinion. Hardly any weapons get more range just because they're a breach weapon. The rail rifle is not a breach weapon because it gets more range for doing less damage in my eyes. The only way I could really justify seeing the rail rifle as legitimately fitting within the breach weapon category, beyond the superficial fact that it has a similar rate of fire, is that it burdens the user with cumbersome handling characteristics in exchange for POWER. Power is not the same as damage or damage per shot. What makes a rail rifle powerful? It's RANGE. So breach weapons basically exaggerate the characteristics that make the base weapon more powerful and desirable than others? Maybe this is why other breach weapons have trouble shining a bit? Because certain weapons don't get as much power in exchange for their respective weapon's drawbacks? For example, the breach mass driver or breach flaylocks, which are hardly ever used last time I checked. Maybe it needs more splash because that's one characteristic of the weapon that makes it desirable over other weapons? They do more damage, yes, but let's face it, the reason a mass driver can be more powerful than other weapons isn't because it can do higher DPS against one enemy... It's because it can do splash against multiple enemies and hit them from around corners. If we were to increase the splash on the breach mass driver, slow down the travel time of the projectile, lower rate of fire, lower damage (after all, damage application is supposed to be fairly difficult with these things as people say) then it'd be a proper breach. The only way for this weapon to really apply decent damage would be if many enemies were in a single spot and it'd fit perfectly into the minmatar commando hands, which are just itching for a signature suppressive weapon- a portable mortar. Meanwhile we switch the splash on the assault mass driver so they're a bit smaller with faster traveling rounds, with higher DPS so people can... assault with it. I know people will object to what I'm suggesting here, someone will stand up and say: "But, Indy! Breach weapons have high damage in exchange for trouble applying damage, the breach mass driver should be a skill shot weapon or very cumbersome with small splash and high damage! Therefore it can not be a breach weapon if it does not do this!" If that's your opinion and you disagree, then you should say the same for the assault rifle getting more range and less damage. It will not become a proper breach weapon by simply imitating the rail rifle. If this is not your opinion and you agree with me, then you should somewhat ponder over my thoughts and throw mud at me for what I am about to suggest. Anyways, what is it that makes an assault rifle powerful and preferable to other weapons? It's DPS at CQC and medium-short range. What handling characteristics make it difficult to apply damage so they can be exaggerated to make it work like a proper breach weapon? Dispersion and lack of range. Therefore, shorten range. Increase dispersion- maybe so that it's only preferable to use with ADS. These are both signature characteristics that hold the rifle back. Maybe increase rate of fire since that's more of a blaster thing compared to other weapons. Increase DPS a shitload. Voila- a proper breach assault rifle- perfect for a gallente commando suppressing enemies in an indoor area with a bit more range than an HMG, not to mention perfect for a gallente assault with the current bonus. This doesn't mean I'm against the other ideas being proposed here, just a few more thoughts on the whole "breach category" of weapons and how they possibly may need to work on a conceptual level, CCP could do with adding a carbine variant or something.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 989	Posted - 2014.11.18 09:30:00 - [70] - Quote The problem Indy, and what I'm afraid of in this instance is when they take breach weaponry that works, (often because it works too well) with the intent on making it a skill weapon with lots of potential, is that they tend to make it absurdly hard to use with very little to next to no return. The last Breach weapon that I can recall as being really OP was the breach SG and that thing still has yet to return to being useful in any sense of the word. Hell, the CreoDron hasn't been useful since the early days of closed beta. It has been outperformed by nearly every other weapon in the game for *over a year!* The breach FG is the only breach weapon I can really think of that has remained mostly potentially useful throughout Dusts history while still being a very hard to use weapon. Problem is that CCP has such a nasty tendency of making 'breach' synonymous with 'vanity' so I would rather balance toward variety over implementing more 'skill weapon' gimmicks. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny

Feldt-Grace Anaheim Electronics Manufacture Company 29	Posted - 2014.11.18 11:45:00 - [71] - Quote I miss the old BHMG. u.u "blaa is to strong" bullshit -___- The Breach-Assaultrifle is little bit to Strong. From 36 Ammoclip to 30 or 26 is better. TRANS-AM! Gundam, DUST and more Gameplays
saxonmish T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 735	Posted - 2014.11.18 11:48:00 - [72] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Please balance it. Agreed The sooner as the BAR is nerfed the better, in my opinion its the new RR SAXON ON A MISH - My Youtube Channel :)
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 180	Posted - 2014.11.18 11:51:00 - [73] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: The problem Indy, and what I'm afraid of in this instance is when they take breach weaponry that works, (often because it works too well) with the intent on making it a skill weapon with lots of potential, is that they tend to make it absurdly hard to use with very little to next to no return. You seem to be preoccupied on breach weapons that don't work and think if the assault rifle is done in a similiar way, it will become useless- just look at the rail rifle, it's been nerfed over and over and it's still useful, though difficult to use. The power of it's range is worth the cumbersome handling characteristics- the long charge time, the kick, etc. Even now, I still use it despite others claiming it's been nerfed to hell. If the weapon is compensated with power appropriately, people will use it. Daddrobit wrote: The last Breach weapon that I can recall as being really OP was the breach SG and that thing still has yet to return to being useful in any sense of the word. Hell, the CreoDron hasn't been useful since the early days of closed beta. It has been outperformed by nearly every other weapon in the game for *over a year!* Shotguns in general may just need to be balanced, jury is still out on it. Even Aeon Amadi points out that they have remained untouched for the longest time, they just need to be better defined in my opinion. Only then can a proper breach shotgun rise from the ashes of what once was... Daddrobit wrote: The breach FG is the only breach weapon I can really think of that has remained mostly potentially useful throughout Dusts history while still being a very hard to use weapon. Some people would disagree on the breach forge gun being "good", and some feel forge guns need a balance pass... So once again, the jury may still be out on it. Anyways, you point at a perfect example of the theory I'm drawing here, the breach has all of it's signature drawbacks amplified in exchange for power. It seems to be a useable and legitimate breach variant because it adheres to the theory of what constitutes a breach weapon perfectly. It has the power to be worth it. Daddrobit wrote: Problem is that CCP has such a nasty tendency of making 'breach' synonymous with 'vanity' so I would rather balance toward variety over implementing more 'skill weapon' gimmicks. I think my suggestion actually would create variety within the AR's... Not to mention variety within the rest of the weapons. We already have many long range anti-shield weapons- the laser, the scrambler, the tactical rifle which I whip out against cal suits with rail rifles, doesn't the burst get more range too? Why can't I have a super powerful assault rifle with such odd handling characteristics? Isn't that more unique compared to an anti-shield rail rifle knock off? It sounds like it'd be a fun gun to use on occasion and try with different fits and such and it wouldn't be a gimmick if it gets the power to be worth it... Maybe this is why explosive breach weapons and the breach shotgun seem underwhelming, they don't offer increased "power" for their drawbacks? That is, the strengths of the weapon aren't amplified. Sure, they offer increased damage, but it doesn't make the weapon more desirable over the normal variant for most people. Anyways, don't hide the maple syrup tomorrow morning, just making a few suggestions.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 989	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:57:00 - [74] - Quote As an avid Gallente loyalist, and a devout patriot of the Breach Assault Rifle, I would absolutely love to see my baby brought up to be the single meanest weapon in CQC. However, I also have to recognize that in this game, CQC capability is overwhelmingly often the king and overcoming short range limitations can in most situations be childs play. When it comes down to it, at 90% of the objectives in the game there is cover that can be taken and shored up behind every few meters when advancing on a point. That means that even if the breach AR is handicapped by having only HMG range or less, it would often times be inconsequential when you can leapfrog your way cover to cover to eventually reach your goal and apply full damage. And in the cases of there being no cover, like approaching medium socket dominations from the mcc, other measures can be taken like calling in an lav or dropship; for scouts it's even easier as they can just waltz up from the side being invisible. Then there's the concerning matter of odd power creep within the AR branch. Back in 1.8, there was a TTK adjustment nerfing pretty much every rifle in the game, and since then there has been enough buffs between them that every plasma rifle -except- the base variant is now more powerful than it was pre 1.8. PRE 1.8 ADV Burst AR 445 Current ADV Burst AR 540 PRE 1.8 Proto Burst AR 537 Current Proto Burst AR 606 PRE 1.8 ADV TAR 499 Current ADV TAR 695 PRE 1.8 Proto TAR 523 Current Proto TAR 728 PRE 1.8 BAR 340 Current BAR 415 PRE 1.8 ADV BAR 357 Current ADV BAR 435 PRE 1.8 Proto BAR 374 Current Proto BAR 456 And then there's the base AR PRE 1.8 AR 425 Current AR 412 PRE 1.8 ADV AR 446 Current ADV AR 432 PRE 1.8 Proto AR 467 Current Proto AR 453 What's concerning a large portion of the playerbase is the BARs already apt ability to kill very quickly and efficiently, by adding even more power to it, even at the expense of range, not only are we exacerbating the problem, we're relegating the base AR further and further away from being a useful tool. It'll be the odd weapon out, not really having the DPS to compete in CQC, while still sporting the worst ranges of light weaponry unable to effectively attack distant targets. And this is the weapon that's supposed to be the mainstay of the Federation? I feel -something- needs to be done here... O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny


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