DUST Search - The breach is following the same trend as the burst HMG

Zatara Rought wrote:

Sgt Kirk wrote:

[quote=Zatara Rought]
I always paired the Tactical rifle to the Scrambler Rifle.
It's a Gallente weapon.
It's a Variant
It's not going to behave exactly like the Scrambler Rifle but it does have some common ground.

High Alpha
Long range.

And that's about all that you're going to have without it becoming OP. Damage per mag is going to be low because if it had a large mag that'd be OP and nobody wants that. The Duvolle Tactical has no overheat function but it does Kick like a mule and has a low mag size so I find it a decent trade off.

As far as the Breach goes I'd be alright with a Damage Nerf but only if it got a range increase. Since we are trying to match like weapons with their variants the Breach should perform more like the Rail then. Considerably more range than the Plasma Rifle, less range than the assault but less damage than the Plasma Rifle and more DPS than the Rail.

If it's going to act like the RR then it needs to be worthless in CQC. So high dispersion when not ADS or hipfire kick. It also has no charge up mechanic so it needs to be balanced against that as well.


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Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 974	Posted - 2014.11.17 05:10:00 - [1] - Quote Oh yeah, the BAR seriously is as bad as a weapon that -literally- melted every light and medium suit in a single trigger pull when on target, it's just that good. How dare a CQC weapon shine in CQC for more than 2 weeks after well over a year of disuse, nerf it immediately. /sarcasm It's powerful yeah, but old BHMG levels of OP? I don't think so. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 976	Posted - 2014.11.17 06:29:00 - [2] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: What should that nerf be? Clip size...reload speed lengthened if a clip reduction doesn't do the trick. The DPS is actually fine...it's how long that DPS is sustainable...and how easy it is to do that DPS at ranges I don't know that the breach was intended for This is the exact issues with it. It just needs its mag reduced to 32 instead of 36, and its rance dropped to 40m instead of 44. That would give it the same damage per mag, DPS and range as the regular AR. But then why use one or the other? Weapon choice should not be cosmetic. Give it a fair bit more range and hit the DPS slightly. Enough so that it's more than the RR and less than the AR. That's what the gun is anyway, it's the Gallente variant of the Caldari RR. Hell, let me throw some numbers around as a guideline to show. Basic AR DPS is 412, Basic RR DPS is 361. Drop the base damage per bullet of the basic BAR to be 54.2 which would give it a DPS of 387, nice and in the middle. Advanced AR DPS is 432, Advanced RR DPS is 379. Drop the base damage per bullet of the Advanced BAR to be 56.8 which would give it a DPS of 406. Proto AR DPS is 453, Proto RR DPS is 397. Drop the base damage per bullet of the Proto BAR to be59.5 which would give the Proto BAR a DPS of 425. Then give the BAR 10 meters of effective/optimal over the AR, (which is still 15 less than the RR) and you have yourselves a solid step in the direction of balance. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 976	Posted - 2014.11.17 06:38:00 - [3] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Is it supposed to be like the RR? I thought that was what the TAC was for? TAC is the scrambler m8. And burst is the CR. They were all the original 'placeholders' now considered variants. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 977	Posted - 2014.11.17 06:47:00 - [4] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Is it supposed to be like the RR? I thought that was what the TAC was for? TAC is the scrambler m8. And burst is the CR. They were all the original 'placeholders' now considered variants. Wut...But the SCR is a high DPS, high clip...overheat based weapon that performs perfectly in CQC and at range.. The Tac needs considerable changes if it's going to be considered the alternative SCR. I agree on the CR/Burst comparison. Anyone else want to validate/contest the idea that the breach is the RR placeholder? TAC AR is single fire, high alpha/DPS, long range weapon like the ScR that only has a lower clip size because it was OP before. Used to have something like 42 bullets way back in the day. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 979	Posted - 2014.11.17 07:12:00 - [5] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: How is it unbalanced as compared to RRs, SCRs, TacARs, etc? Just because it kills you slighty more doesn't make it unbalanced. Its not OP or unbalanced. Burst HMG was actually an example of OP. It had a 3,000+ DPS. TTK with breach is no different than RR, SCR, or even an Ion or Scrambler Pistol... Prove its unbalanced with math and simple rock, paper, scissors logic. Prove its OP with its DPS. As a avid BAR supporter, it functions as a rock, paper and scissor by having nothing that it's the worst at and many things that it is the best at. -It doesn't have a spool up. -It doesn't overheat. -It has the highest DPS of all automatic weaponry . -The second highest accuracy behind the AScR, but the AScR has considerably more recoil. -Third highest damage per clip behind the AScR and ARR. But the ARR is less accurate, has more recoil, and has a spool up time while the AScR has considerably more recoil and overheats before you can use the whole clip. -Still doesn't have a bad range. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 981	Posted - 2014.11.17 07:49:00 - [6] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: [quote=Zatara Rought] I always paired the Tactical rifle to the Scrambler Rifle. It's a Gallente weapon. It's a Variant It's not going to behave exactly like the Scrambler Rifle but it does have some common ground. High Alpha Long range. And that's about all that you're going to have without it becoming OP. Damage per mag is going to be low because if it had a large mag that'd be OP and nobody wants that. The Duvolle Tactical has no overheat function but it does Kick like a mule and has a low mag size so I find it a decent trade off. As far as the Breach goes I'd be alright with a Damage Nerf but only if it got a range increase. Since we are trying to match like weapons with their variants the Breach should perform more like the Rail then. Considerably more range than the Plasma Rifle, less range than the assault but less damage than the Plasma Rifle and more DPS than the Rail. If it's going to act like the RR then it needs to be worthless in CQC. So high dispersion when not ADS or hipfire kick. It also has no charge up mechanic so it needs to be balanced against that as well. Hence the markedly lower DPS post I made earlier. Not asking for it to hit for 100% out to 70 meters, just give it 10 more than the basic AR which is still less than even the CR. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 988	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:57:00 - [7] - Quote It would seem that there's a bit of a inequity in peoples definition of a breach weapon, so let's start off with the simple definition of what 'breach' is and is not. breach: noun 1. an act of breaking or failing to observe a law, agreement, or code of conduct. 2. a gap in a wall, barrier, or defense, especially one made by an attacking army. synonyms:break, rupture, split, crack, fracture verb 1. make a gap in and break through (a wall, barrier, or defense). "the river breached its bank" synonyms:break (through), burst (through), rupture; To breach something is not necessarily to attack up close or be QCQ, to breach something simply means to crack it open. Case in point: when a police/military force 'breaches' a building, it simply means that they are busting open a door or wall. From there, that is the point in which the force 'assaults' the building. So a 'breaching' weapon in Dust is simply a weapon that has the, (usually alpha) power to crack open a hardened target regardless of range. Unfortunately from there, CCPs definition of how a breach weapon performs that function varies, but we can still take a look at a few generalities. Slower ROF: Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach SG Breach MD Breach Flaylock Every breach weapon follows this convention Equal Reload Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach MD The SG is the only breach weapon which reloads slower, and the breach flaylock actually reloads faster. Higher Per shot value: Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach SG Breach MD Breach Flaylock Every breach weapon follows this convention Lower DPS: Breach smg Breach SG Breach Flaylock Only less than half of the breach weaponry follows this convention. AR, MD, FG, and ScP all have higher than standard DPS rates Lower Clip/Mag Size: Breach AR Breach smg Breach ScP Breach SG Over half follows this convention. The FG, MD, and Flaylock all have equal clip sizes compared to the standard. Longer Range: Breach AR Breach SG This is a very muddy area as FGs, MDs, and flaylocks are launched rather than shot. Then there's the ScP and smg which both have shorter ranges. So everything here is kinda split. However it is worth mentioning that once upon a time that the smg did have longer ranges but was nerfed some time ago. I am unsure about the ScP as I did not use it. So at least the automatic variants of breach weaponry were all at one point long range weapons. Higher Damage per clip/mag Breach AR Breach smg Breach FG Breach ScP Breach MD Breach Flaylock Everything bar the SG has a higher damage potential per clip/mag First off, the breach shotgun really needs some help, but that's not the point... It would seem that breach weapons are guaranteed to be defined by having a lower clip/mag size and slower ROF, offset by a higher clip/mag potential and a higher per shot value. I would also argue that they have also should have a longer range as that is how the AR and SG function, and it's how the smg, (and possibly ScP?) used to function. This is inconsequential when considering the launched variants as their operation regarding range varies so drastically from the rest. When i comes to DPS, it would seem that they also have a higher average DPS, however I feel this is a balance gaffe in regards to the AR, (and maybe ScP?) on CCPs part, we're starting to see too many pros in comparison to cons. The FG and MD are harder to use by virtue of their operation, so the deserve that damage potential there. But having an automatic weapon that deals the most DPS, hitting the hardest for every bullet, all while also having the most potential damage before reload simply is not balanced. Again, in my honest opinion, I would stress a DPS drop of 25-30 DPS less than the AR through per shot damage drop and give it 6 more meters optimal/effective. For those afraid of that range, keep in mind that even the CR, and especially the RR still has more range with what I'm proposing. Let the weapon 'breach' with lots of damage over a sustained period of time at a distance and leave the 'assaulting' DPS to the assault weapons. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 989	Posted - 2014.11.18 09:30:00 - [8] - Quote The problem Indy, and what I'm afraid of in this instance is when they take breach weaponry that works, (often because it works too well) with the intent on making it a skill weapon with lots of potential, is that they tend to make it absurdly hard to use with very little to next to no return. The last Breach weapon that I can recall as being really OP was the breach SG and that thing still has yet to return to being useful in any sense of the word. Hell, the CreoDron hasn't been useful since the early days of closed beta. It has been outperformed by nearly every other weapon in the game for *over a year!* The breach FG is the only breach weapon I can really think of that has remained mostly potentially useful throughout Dusts history while still being a very hard to use weapon. Problem is that CCP has such a nasty tendency of making 'breach' synonymous with 'vanity' so I would rather balance toward variety over implementing more 'skill weapon' gimmicks. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 989	Posted - 2014.11.18 13:57:00 - [9] - Quote As an avid Gallente loyalist, and a devout patriot of the Breach Assault Rifle, I would absolutely love to see my baby brought up to be the single meanest weapon in CQC. However, I also have to recognize that in this game, CQC capability is overwhelmingly often the king and overcoming short range limitations can in most situations be childs play. When it comes down to it, at 90% of the objectives in the game there is cover that can be taken and shored up behind every few meters when advancing on a point. That means that even if the breach AR is handicapped by having only HMG range or less, it would often times be inconsequential when you can leapfrog your way cover to cover to eventually reach your goal and apply full damage. And in the cases of there being no cover, like approaching medium socket dominations from the mcc, other measures can be taken like calling in an lav or dropship; for scouts it's even easier as they can just waltz up from the side being invisible. Then there's the concerning matter of odd power creep within the AR branch. Back in 1.8, there was a TTK adjustment nerfing pretty much every rifle in the game, and since then there has been enough buffs between them that every plasma rifle -except- the base variant is now more powerful than it was pre 1.8. PRE 1.8 ADV Burst AR 445 Current ADV Burst AR 540 PRE 1.8 Proto Burst AR 537 Current Proto Burst AR 606 PRE 1.8 ADV TAR 499 Current ADV TAR 695 PRE 1.8 Proto TAR 523 Current Proto TAR 728 PRE 1.8 BAR 340 Current BAR 415 PRE 1.8 ADV BAR 357 Current ADV BAR 435 PRE 1.8 Proto BAR 374 Current Proto BAR 456 And then there's the base AR PRE 1.8 AR 425 Current AR 412 PRE 1.8 ADV AR 446 Current ADV AR 432 PRE 1.8 Proto AR 467 Current Proto AR 453 What's concerning a large portion of the playerbase is the BARs already apt ability to kill very quickly and efficiently, by adding even more power to it, even at the expense of range, not only are we exacerbating the problem, we're relegating the base AR further and further away from being a useful tool. It'll be the odd weapon out, not really having the DPS to compete in CQC, while still sporting the worst ranges of light weaponry unable to effectively attack distant targets. And this is the weapon that's supposed to be the mainstay of the Federation? I feel -something- needs to be done here... O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny