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Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
179
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Posted - 2014.11.17 10:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seems like there's a bad case of rail rifle envy going around...
The problem with pointing at the rail rifle and saying the breach assault rifle should work like that... is well... The rail rifle doesn't actually work like a breach. It has a pretty long charge time, it has a considerable amount of kick, it has so-so damage for longer range. The rail rifle is seriously in a class of it's own and it has quite a few things that balance it.
Other breach weapon tend to do more damage per shot, it's difficult to apply damage with them, and they are more cumbersome to handle or move with in general. Adding more range doesn't make it harder to apply damage- it makes it easier so it goes against the breach convention...
One would think that we'd use a breach assault rifle to breach and assault with, but nope. Sadly, with the current assault rifle having pretty much the same range and DPS, it seems redundant for most players since both try to do exactly the same thing, except one can do it a bit better.
Lowering the damage on the breach for more range seems like it could not work out as well as one might hope. Having a slow rate of fire with low damage per shot with an inherently close range weapon against highly mobile shield tanked enemies that can regenerate much more quickly seems like it could be a dud if not done right. If it is done right, I'd like to see the rifle balanced to work with a gallente commando so that it turns into a human damage stacked turret- similiar to a caldari commando with a rail rifle and it's ability to supress enemies effectively.
I also want to say I'm a little apprehensive about CCP touching it until a gallente assault bonus is settled on... Although I believe they should and will get a range bonus since that is what seems to keep assaults from assaulting.
I think that as a breach weapon, it may need the characteristics that make the weapon difficult to handle exaggerated and damage increased- so lower the range, (range is one of the defining characteristics that hold blasters back) and increase dispersion.
What do people think about CCP introducing dispersion into ADS on plasma rifles? Maybe then the weapon will be able to justify not having shots disappear in mid air less close to the shooter, not lowering damage so much, make landing shots a bit more difficult like a proper breach weapon, not to mention work at breaching like it should?
This way, the breach assault rifle, not to mention assault rifles, could aim for a few more distant enemies, but it's not exactly preferable to other weapons similiar to how the using CQC for a rail rifle is possible, but not ideal.
Anyways, I'm just throwing ideas out, please don't hit me with a truck.  |
Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
179
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 03:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Making the assault rifle more like the rail rifle wouldn't turn it into a proper breach weapon in my opinion. Hardly any weapons get more range just because they're a breach weapon. The rail rifle is not a breach weapon because it gets more range for doing less damage in my eyes.
The only way I could really justify seeing the rail rifle as legitimately fitting within the breach weapon category, beyond the superficial fact that it has a similar rate of fire, is that it burdens the user with cumbersome handling characteristics in exchange for POWER.
Power is not the same as damage or damage per shot.
What makes a rail rifle powerful? It's RANGE.
So breach weapons basically exaggerate the characteristics that make the base weapon more powerful and desirable than others?
Maybe this is why other breach weapons have trouble shining a bit? Because certain weapons don't get as much power in exchange for their respective weapon's drawbacks?
For example, the breach mass driver or breach flaylocks, which are hardly ever used last time I checked. Maybe it needs more splash because that's one characteristic of the weapon that makes it desirable over other weapons? They do more damage, yes, but let's face it, the reason a mass driver can be more powerful than other weapons isn't because it can do higher DPS against one enemy... It's because it can do splash against multiple enemies and hit them from around corners.
If we were to increase the splash on the breach mass driver, slow down the travel time of the projectile, lower rate of fire, lower damage (after all, damage application is supposed to be fairly difficult with these things as people say) then it'd be a proper breach. The only way for this weapon to really apply decent damage would be if many enemies were in a single spot and it'd fit perfectly into the minmatar commando hands, which are just itching for a signature suppressive weapon- a portable mortar. Meanwhile we switch the splash on the assault mass driver so they're a bit smaller with faster traveling rounds, with higher DPS so people can... assault with it.
I know people will object to what I'm suggesting here, someone will stand up and say:
"But, Indy! Breach weapons have high damage in exchange for trouble applying damage, the breach mass driver should be a skill shot weapon or very cumbersome with small splash and high damage! Therefore it can not be a breach weapon if it does not do this!"
If that's your opinion and you disagree, then you should say the same for the assault rifle getting more range and less damage. It will not become a proper breach weapon by simply imitating the rail rifle.
If this is not your opinion and you agree with me, then you should somewhat ponder over my thoughts and throw mud at me for what I am about to suggest.
Anyways, what is it that makes an assault rifle powerful and preferable to other weapons?
It's DPS at CQC and medium-short range.
What handling characteristics make it difficult to apply damage so they can be exaggerated to make it work like a proper breach weapon?
Dispersion and lack of range.
Therefore, shorten range. Increase dispersion- maybe so that it's only preferable to use with ADS. These are both signature characteristics that hold the rifle back. Maybe increase rate of fire since that's more of a blaster thing compared to other weapons. Increase DPS a shitload. Voila- a proper breach assault rifle- perfect for a gallente commando suppressing enemies in an indoor area with a bit more range than an HMG, not to mention perfect for a gallente assault with the current bonus.
This doesn't mean I'm against the other ideas being proposed here, just a few more thoughts on the whole "breach category" of weapons and how they possibly may need to work on a conceptual level, CCP could do with adding a carbine variant or something. |
Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
180
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 11:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Daddrobit wrote:The problem Indy, and what I'm afraid of in this instance is when they take breach weaponry that works, (often because it works too well) with the intent on making it a skill weapon with lots of potential, is that they tend to make it absurdly hard to use with very little to next to no return.
You seem to be preoccupied on breach weapons that don't work and think if the assault rifle is done in a similiar way, it will become useless- just look at the rail rifle, it's been nerfed over and over and it's still useful, though difficult to use. The power of it's range is worth the cumbersome handling characteristics- the long charge time, the kick, etc. Even now, I still use it despite others claiming it's been nerfed to hell. If the weapon is compensated with power appropriately, people will use it.
Daddrobit wrote:The last Breach weapon that I can recall as being really OP was the breach SG and that thing still has yet to return to being useful in any sense of the word.
Hell, the CreoDron hasn't been useful since the early days of closed beta. It has been outperformed by nearly every other weapon in the game for over a year!
Shotguns in general may just need to be balanced, jury is still out on it. Even Aeon Amadi points out that they have remained untouched for the longest time, they just need to be better defined in my opinion. Only then can a proper breach shotgun rise from the ashes of what once was...
Daddrobit wrote:The breach FG is the only breach weapon I can really think of that has remained mostly potentially useful throughout Dusts history while still being a very hard to use weapon.
Some people would disagree on the breach forge gun being "good", and some feel forge guns need a balance pass... So once again, the jury may still be out on it. Anyways, you point at a perfect example of the theory I'm drawing here, the breach has all of it's signature drawbacks amplified in exchange for power. It seems to be a useable and legitimate breach variant because it adheres to the theory of what constitutes a breach weapon perfectly. It has the power to be worth it.
Daddrobit wrote:Problem is that CCP has such a nasty tendency of making 'breach' synonymous with 'vanity' so I would rather balance toward variety over implementing more 'skill weapon' gimmicks.
I think my suggestion actually would create variety within the AR's... Not to mention variety within the rest of the weapons. We already have many long range anti-shield weapons- the laser, the scrambler, the tactical rifle which I whip out against cal suits with rail rifles, doesn't the burst get more range too?
Why can't I have a super powerful assault rifle with such odd handling characteristics? Isn't that more unique compared to an anti-shield rail rifle knock off? It sounds like it'd be a fun gun to use on occasion and try with different fits and such and it wouldn't be a gimmick if it gets the power to be worth it...
Maybe this is why explosive breach weapons and the breach shotgun seem underwhelming, they don't offer increased "power" for their drawbacks? That is, the strengths of the weapon aren't amplified. Sure, they offer increased damage, but it doesn't make the weapon more desirable over the normal variant for most people.
Anyways, don't hide the maple syrup tomorrow morning, just making a few suggestions. |
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