DUST Search - What the Fox says: about RR hip fire kick

Fox Gaden wrote:

I use a Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit, so I decided to run a few ambush matches with this fit to see what all the whining was about.

What the Fox Says:

Rail Rifle hip fire kick is fine. It is manageable.

I still feel like I can defend myself with the Rail Rifle should I find myself in a close quarters combat situation.

I will continue to use the Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit despite not having a sidearm. I try to avoid CQC on that fit, and if it should find me, I still trust in my Rail Rifle.

The Rail Rifle is not the best choice for CQC now, but it is serviceable. If you skilled into the Rail Rifle because you felt it was the best choice for CQC before, then you were taking advantage of a flaw in the game and you should feel bad.

Yes, if you hold the trigger down and fire off the full clip from the hip without bursting or adjusting your aim, you will end up facing the sky. DONGÇÖT DO THIS IN COMBAT!

If you fire off your full clip in 3 bursts, the hip fire kick is quite manageable. You will probably want to avoid short bursts due to the charge time, but longer bursts work fine.

If kick is walking you off target, apply apposing pressure with the right stick to compensate.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4778	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:04:00 - [1] - Quote I use a Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit, so I decided to run a few ambush matches with this fit to see what all the whining was about. What the Fox Says: Rail Rifle hip fire kick is fine. I still feel like I can defend myself with the Rail Rifle should I find myself in a close quarters combat situation. I will continue to use the Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit despite not having a sidearm. I try to avoid CQC on that fit, and if it should find me, I still trust in my Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle is not the best choice for CQC now, but it is serviceable. If you skilled into the Rail Rifle because you felt it was the best choice for CQC before, then you were taking advantage of a flaw in the game and you should feel bad. Yes, if you hold the trigger down and fire off the full clip from the hip without bursting or adjusting your aim, you will end up facing the sky. DONGÇÖT DO THIS IN COMBAT! If you fire off your full clip in 3 bursts, the hip fire kick is quite manageable. You will probably want to avoid short bursts due to the charge time, but longer bursts work fine. If kick is walking you off target, apply apposing pressure with the right stick to compensate. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9756	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:15:00 - [2] - Quote I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 710	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:39:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. Does the ARR have the same charge time as the regular RR? If so is there justification for reducing the charge up time on the ARR? The slow blade penetrates the shield.
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 710	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:53:00 - [4] - Quote Just reading another thread and it was mentioned that the increase in hip fire kick that the RR just received also affects the ARR. Is this true? Did the ARR hip fire kick also increase at the same time as the RR? If so you just inadvertently nerfed the ARR, surely? The slow blade penetrates the shield.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3240	Posted - 2014.10.30 12:04:00 - [5] - Quote I like the ARR functionally how it is now. I still prefer it over most weapons. Just now instead of compensating cqc with a bolt pistol it would be wise to use a smg or any other short ranged sidearm. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 624	Posted - 2014.10.30 12:11:00 - [6] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I use a Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit, so I decided to run a few ambush matches with this fit to see what all the whining was about. What the Fox Says: Rail Rifle hip fire kick is fine. It is manageable. I still feel like I can defend myself with the Rail Rifle should I find myself in a close quarters combat situation. I will continue to use the Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit despite not having a sidearm. I try to avoid CQC on that fit, and if it should find me, I still trust in my Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle is not the best choice for CQC now, but it is serviceable. If you skilled into the Rail Rifle because you felt it was the best choice for CQC before, then you were taking advantage of a flaw in the game and you should feel bad. Yes, if you hold the trigger down and fire off the full clip from the hip without bursting or adjusting your aim, you will end up facing the sky. DONGÇÖT DO THIS IN COMBAT! If you fire off your full clip in 3 bursts, the hip fire kick is quite manageable. You will probably want to avoid short bursts due to the charge time, but longer bursts work fine. If kick is walking you off target, apply apposing pressure with the right stick to compensate. if youre in CQC.... you charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil? how does that effect DPS with all that charging? whats our real DPS now, 200 something lol? all other rifle simply.... shoot.
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.10.30 12:54:00 - [7] - Quote I agree i havnt used rr much but I built a Cal assault yesterday it operates just fine as a long range gun
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2961	Posted - 2014.10.30 13:00:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ARR ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Haerr Clone Manque 1740	Posted - 2014.10.30 13:09:00 - [9] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ARR ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Haerr Clone Manque 1740	Posted - 2014.10.30 13:10:00 - [10] - Quote What Does The Fox Say... that would make an awesome band name or song name...

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1286	Posted - 2014.10.30 15:17:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. +1 for getting hands on the ARR. First person perspective always gives you context to both our positive and negative perceptions about a weapon / suite / ect. Couple quick thoughts: 1) The charge time can be overcome to degree by "pre-charging" or fluttering the trigger and that's not optimal if your are a player. It also creates some serious challenges if you run a pure Caldari logi sense weapon charging and equipment switching can occaisionally leave you with your finger pulling the trigger and the weapon isn't charging or firing. This is why I strongly advocate for a charge system more akin to the small rail turrets...you can actually lower the charge time and get a much better effect that can be used to balance the weapon. PS...If you tried the ARR and the charge was hard to work with for you...try the RR with the now longer charge time. 2) To a degree recoil / dispersion can work in your favor in combat...to a degree. It's actually more useful in high RoF weapons than slower firing alpha oriented weapons because alpha weapons are basically constructed around the idea of landing a higer percentage of shots but lower volume to achieve the kill. My recommendation and as you've seen Alena's is to essentially bring the recoil back to pre-nerf levels, lower the range a bit, and let's see how that goes. 3) 3-5 shots? Sounds about right for low end suits...did you have experience going up against proto level equipment or vets? Just curious. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2089	Posted - 2014.10.30 15:25:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. 5 shots with the ARR at 42 damage a shot for proto is 210 damage. What suits were you mostly killing? Once the kick is reverted back to pre-nerf levels, I suggest a range cut, and then the ARR should be good performance wise. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4788	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:22:00 - [13] - Quote I support making the Assault Rail Rifle into a viable close to mid range weapon, as an urban warfare viable alternative to the Rail Rifle for people heavily invested in Rail Rifle Operation. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1913	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:36:00 - [14] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: if youre in CQC.... you charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil? how does that effect DPS with all that charging? whats our real DPS now, 200 something lol? all other rifle simply.... shoot. How does that effect DPS? It goes to 0 because if the person you're going up against has any semblence of gun game and you don't see them first and kill them in the first few shots, you're dead. With the gun where it is now, I can seemingly put twice the effective DPS downrange with a scrambler pistol or SMG.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2090	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:37:00 - [15] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I support making the Assault Rail Rifle into a viable close to mid range weapon, as an urban warfare viable alternative to the Rail Rifle for people heavily invested in Rail Rifle Operation. Been pushing for this for a few days. The goal is for the ARR to be CQC, and the RR long range, but for neither to be both at the same time. Once the kick is reduced, and if Rattati reduces the range to 60m, Then we can run metrics. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1913	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:44:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. 5 shots with the ARR at 42 damage a shot for proto is 210 damage. What suits were you mostly killing? Exactly. It's a noob killer. Anyone with some tank or, heaven forbid, an EWAR advantage, and you're dead. I would suggest that the k/s data be supplemented by a deeper dive into the distance the kills occured in, if possible, as I suspect this will give greater insight into what is happening with the RR/ARR and how best to address it.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1913	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:49:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before I'm among your biggest fans, Rattati, and I think you're the best thing to happen to Dust, but I must admit I was a bit disturbed to read this. How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1491	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:20:00 - [18] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I support making the Assault Rail Rifle into a viable close to mid range weapon, as an urban warfare viable alternative to the Rail Rifle for people heavily invested in Rail Rifle Operation. I'd be up for that if the AR isn't able to shoot more than 20m and kicks wildly when shot for more than 7 rounds in a row and if the combat rifle became uncontrollable after two bursts and the scrambler overheated after three shots. Maybe then you'll see how ridiculous your notion of 'balance' is. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1915	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:27:00 - [19] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I use a Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit, so I decided to run a few ambush matches with this fit to see what all the whining was about. What the Fox Says: Rail Rifle hip fire kick is fine. It is manageable. I still feel like I can defend myself with the Rail Rifle should I find myself in a close quarters combat situation. I don't agree that the kick is managable, and I don't believe you can defend yourself against anyone outside of a noob. And have you tried the ARR?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 403	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:31:00 - [20] - Quote Haerr wrote: What Does The Fox Say... "What the cuss? Cuss, cuss, cuss!" Nerf scouts. Because the cuss frame is cuss imbalanced with the cuss rest of cuss us. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 403	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:32:00 - [21] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I have never played with the ARR before I'm among your biggest fans, Rattati, and I think you're the best thing to happen to Dust, but I must admit I was a bit disturbed to read this. Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. Agreed, this is thin-ice territory. Nerf scouts. Just based off the stats comparisons. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1917	Posted - 2014.10.30 17:37:00 - [22] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. Just based off the stats comparisons. Since the statistic that led to the RR hipfire nerf was usage (the K/S was not that much out of line), and the usage disparity for scout suits appears to be even more off, I suspect that's on the table for a future balance update/hotfix.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 404	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:08:00 - [23] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. Just based off the stats comparisons. Since the statistic that led to the RR hipfire nerf was usage (the K/S was not that much out of line), and the usage disparity for scout suits appears to be even more off, I suspect that's on the table for a future balance update/hotfix. On the table? That cuss is the centerpiece and cussing host of the party. Nerf scouts. Their marriage to imbalance must be annulled. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 187	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:36:00 - [24] - Quote 3-5 shots? Lol rattati can we swap matchmaking? Sick of heavies NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
xAckie Ghost. Mob 458	Posted - 2014.10.30 19:20:00 - [25] - Quote why are you addressing yourself in the 3rd person? Do you have a dissociative identity disorder?
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 56	Posted - 2014.10.31 01:15:00 - [26] - Quote So yeah, now I went and messed around with the RR some. RR Prof lvl 3 Standard RR tested Isn't the charge before firing supposed to be higher? It seems shorter to me. Beyond that I don't really see what the fuss is about. I can get to 14 rounds left in the magazine before the recoil gets too much for me to control by kicking around all over the place. ADS is pretty good to somewhere in the 8-14 rounds left in the magazine, then it get's too much kick for fine aiming. Overall this seems pretty good, and pretty comparable to plasma rifles, which typically you want to stop firing every 10-15 rounds so that dispersion doesn't get too wide.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9801	Posted - 2014.10.31 04:51:00 - [27] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4354	Posted - 2014.10.31 04:52:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Am a scientist, can confirm. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2456	Posted - 2014.10.31 05:09:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Well said. Your approach has been really awesome for the game. I must say though that I'm pretty shocked you guys don't have an empty map where you play around with all of the toys on a regular basis. Best PvE idea ever!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9805	Posted - 2014.10.31 05:26:00 - [30] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Well said. Your approach has been really awesome for the game. I must say though that I'm pretty shocked you guys don't have an empty map where you play around with all of the toys on a regular basis. Who says we don't? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"




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