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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
624
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Posted - 2014.10.30 12:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I use a Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit, so I decided to run a few ambush matches with this fit to see what all the whining was about. What the Fox Says:
- Rail Rifle hip fire kick is fine. It is manageable.
- I still feel like I can defend myself with the Rail Rifle should I find myself in a close quarters combat situation.
- I will continue to use the Rail Rifle on my Drop Uplink Logi fit despite not having a sidearm. I try to avoid CQC on that fit, and if it should find me, I still trust in my Rail Rifle.
- The Rail Rifle is not the best choice for CQC now, but it is serviceable. If you skilled into the Rail Rifle because you felt it was the best choice for CQC before, then you were taking advantage of a flaw in the game and you should feel bad.
- Yes, if you hold the trigger down and fire off the full clip from the hip without bursting or adjusting your aim, you will end up facing the sky. DONGÇÖT DO THIS IN COMBAT!
- If you fire off your full clip in 3 bursts, the hip fire kick is quite manageable. You will probably want to avoid short bursts due to the charge time, but longer bursts work fine.
- If kick is walking you off target, apply apposing pressure with the right stick to compensate.
if youre in CQC.... you charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil, charge, shoot, stop shooting because of recoil? how does that effect DPS with all that charging? whats our real DPS now, 200 something lol?
all other rifle simply.... shoot. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
625
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 07:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Nerf scouts. Just based off the stats comparisons. Since the statistic that led to the RR hipfire nerf was usage (the K/S was not that much out of line), and the usage disparity for scout suits appears to be even more off, I suspect that's on the table for a future balance update/hotfix. So usage went up, despite not being OP, and then K/S just stayed highest because its good at long range? If that's the case, a CQC nerf will not have any effect, we can see that soon in the data. Another theory would be that upon discovering a weapon that was OP, players started using it, and even though everyone is using it, it did not reduce its K/S at all while also getting the most kills for all Rifles by a huge margin, not usage.
so if the data shows no change in usage, will unerf the RR? considering that the nerf had no effect, it would be unnecessary.
perhaps youd go with the other option of actually making the RR a long range precision weapon?
decreased recoil, increased optimal range, lower damage per shot |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
626
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 03:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
If the goal was to drive down usage, why haven't they redesigned the maps to have more cover and less open areas? RR is great because there's always 9 miles of open field between you and some guy you want to shoot at.
Rooftop campers can only be hit by RR or sniper rifles effectively. And open field give first strike advantage to RR. I can always find a spot on a map to abuse the RR range.
If you want more usage out of short range weapons then you need maps very obscured line of sight, plenty of cover, ceilings and enclosed areas that can't be viewed at long range. The bare bones map design is the problem you want solve if you're trying to drive down RR usage. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
626
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 08:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:If the goal was to drive down usage, why haven't they redesigned the maps to have more cover and less open areas? RR is great because there's always 9 miles of open field between you and some guy you want to shoot at.
Rooftop campers can only be hit by RR or sniper rifles effectively. And open field give first strike advantage to RR. I can always find a spot on a map to abuse the RR range.
If you want more usage out of short range weapons then you need maps very obscured line of sight, plenty of cover, ceilings and enclosed areas that can't be viewed at long range. The bare bones map design is the problem you want solve if you're trying to drive down RR usage. In this light, a map that was solely indoors would have very low RR usage. Think of the Gallente Research Facility domination. Almost no RRs there, because everyone is underground or in the city. RR's shine on the bridge domination because there is so much open space.
Exactly. There's only two places on that map I can deploy RR effectively and both are fairly open to flanking and counter attacks.
The new maps and sockets will be interesting.
Rattati, do you have map data? I'd like to know where the most traffic is and if it's at all possible, it would be great to distinguish where the most kills are made and most deaths are made. The range between the two as well as the suits involved would tell an interesting story as to what happened.
Or even better, develope a way to record matches and play them back with the ability to view each players perspective. This would be a powerful tool |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
633
|
Posted - 2014.11.02 08:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:Which may be exactly what was intended by this nerf. Make it more of a niche weapon and drive down usage. Fox Gaden wrote:The RR was OP in the sense that it was the best weapon in the least skilled hands. It was too easy for low to mid level players to get exceptional results with it. It was too easy to use. Again, simply wrong. It was the most popular weapon, not the best. If it was the best, it would have had a clear K/S advantage. The data shows it does not...despite having a range advantage that would lead towards higher K/S situation -- killing at range. Fox Gaden wrote:So perhaps we need another word to use instead of Overpowered to describe this phenomena. (I detest the term GÇ£noob-tubGÇ¥ by the way.) I think the term you are looking for is overused or overpopular, not overpowered. Here's my take: The RR is popular because it was truly OP at the time it was introduced -- the time the entire playerbase got a respec. It is also popular for the same reason people like sniping -- it allows you to kill at range (albeit a much narrower range than the sniper rifle) where your targets can't effectively kill you -- and most maps have areas that allow you to do just that: Find one of the many spots in this game that allows you to watch the wide open approach areas. Or use a heavy's HP to overcome it's already glaring weakness in CQC. Luckily, that scrub tactic doesn't work in PC, as anyone who has played PCs recently can attest to, but even overwatch/approach camping works in PC, which is the niche that weapon fills in PC. Fox Gaden wrote:I think you are too focused on only the top 1% of players, and are not giving any consideration to the realities of balancing for the other 99%. Ratatti has to look at both.
Perhaps. I've admitted that PC is my focus, and I play public matches to hone my (relatively lackluster) skills for PC. Shouldn't this game be balanced for both PC and Pubs? Even more to the point, shouldn't we evaluate both data sets before deciding what to do with a weapon? Leadfoot, I disagree with almost everything in this reply to Fox. Every time you said "wrong", I thought "right". How can you state that we are making the RR a "niche" weapon, when it almost has as many kills as the rest of the Rifles combined? The Rail Rifle is making all the other weapons "niche" weapons. How can you say repeatedly that the Rail does not have a clear K/S advantage, when it is the highest of all the Rifles? And twice that of many of them. The Rail Rifle is still used to kill massively in PC and that was taken into account. It is not simply "overused" when it has the highest K/S as well. That doesnt make any sense. Even if it was OP when it was introduced, why is the Kill trend growing rapidly for the last 5 months? It literally means people are migrating to it, not stuck with a decision made around 1.8.
Rattati, let say, that we had an empty map with flat terrain (no cover at all). both teams spawn 400m from each other. one team is using assault rifles, and combat rifles. the other team is using rail rifles, and scrambler rifles.
which team do you think would win an ambush?
after the match ends, the teams are allowed to select new weapons. which weapon do you think will be selected after the first battle?
at this point you should be considering poor map design as the problem for RR popularity. More cover, increased broken lines of sight, and you make long range weapon ineffective, and close range weapons more preferred. There is a reason why the RR is popular and its not because its great at CQC. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
633
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 01:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Rattati, let say, that we had an empty map with flat terrain (no cover at all). both teams spawn 400m from each other. one team is using assault rifles, and combat rifles. the other team is using rail rifles, and scrambler rifles.
which team do you think would win an ambush?
after the match ends, the teams are allowed to select new weapons. which weapon do you think will be selected after the first battle?
at this point you should be considering poor map design as the problem for RR popularity. More cover, increased broken lines of sight, and you make long range weapon ineffective, and close range weapons more preferred. There is a reason why the RR is popular and its not because its great at CQC. Although I wouldn't use the words "poor map design", the logic above makes a lot of sense to me. When I use the RR/ARR it's in very specific situations where the map sets up for it. For instance, guarding the approach to one of the sockets in fractured road (the zig zag road map) or the outside points of the bridge map, or on the approach to any city socket, or in practically every map at the exit to the redline (for all those times the other team finds themselves redlined) -- areas with wide open kill zones in the perfect range for the RR user to own it up. And the change to it's CQC handling it seems to me to have done nothing to the RR/ARR effectiveness in these situations, except make them more vulnerable up close. And if it's the map design aiding this usage profile, will changing the CQC handing of this gun have the desired effect? If so, which of the rifles will pick up the slack in this regard? We shall see.
limit open ares to 30m or less and the RR goes away. provide more over head cover as well to protect from roof top campers.
RR users want to be around 70m away or more. if theyre stuck fighting at 30m all the time they wont have a situation where a long range weapon is needed
EDIT: i say 30m because most sidearms and all AR's and CR's are effective at these ranges. you could go with 40m or even 50m though. if you desgin the map for the weapons you want used on it, then people will eventually start using them on those maps, and usage will go up. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
636
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 01:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:As a Cartographer, I would love to see maps showing where all the kills occurred in a match. Heck, I would love to have the raw data and create a map like that. You could probably draw many insights from such a map.
record the match and play it back viewed from the map screen with all player visible from both teams. youd know everything then, BUT we dont have that tool.
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