DUST Search - What the Fox says: about RR hip fire kick

Leadfoot10 wrote:

Which may be exactly what was intended by this nerf. Make it more of a niche weapon and drive down usage.

Fox Gaden wrote:

The RR was OP in the sense that it was the best weapon in the least skilled hands. It was too easy for low to mid level players to get exceptional results with it. It was too easy to use.

Again, simply wrong. It was the most popular weapon, not the best. If it was the best, it would have had a clear K/S advantage. The data shows it does not...despite having a range advantage that would lead towards higher K/S situation -- killing at range.

Fox Gaden wrote:

So perhaps we need another word to use instead of Overpowered to describe this phenomena. (I detest the term GÇ£noob-tubGÇ¥ by the way.)

I think the term you are looking for is overused or overpopular, not overpowered.

Here's my take: The RR is popular because it was truly OP at the time it was introduced -- the time the entire playerbase got a respec. It is also popular for the same reason people like sniping -- it allows you to kill at range (albeit a much narrower range than the sniper rifle) where your targets can't effectively kill you -- and most maps have areas that allow you to do just that: Find one of the many spots in this game that allows you to watch the wide open approach areas. Or use a heavy's HP to overcome it's already glaring weakness in CQC. Luckily, that scrub tactic doesn't work in PC, as anyone who has played PCs recently can attest to, but even overwatch/approach camping works in PC, which is the niche that weapon fills in PC.

Fox Gaden wrote:

I think you are too focused on only the top 1% of players, and are not giving any consideration to the realities of balancing for the other 99%. Ratatti has to look at both.

Perhaps. I've admitted that PC is my focus, and I play public matches to hone my (relatively lackluster) skills for PC.

Shouldn't this game be balanced for both PC and Pubs?

Even more to the point, shouldn't we evaluate both data sets before deciding what to do with a weapon?

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9756	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:15:00 - [1] - Quote I have never played with the ARR before, just tried it out properly in a few matches, really can't deal with the chargeup. Anecdotally, it felt like a kicky breach, taking down most suits in 3-5 shots. I usually don't fire more than 8 shots ever in a row with any weapon except ACR so kick buildup didn't really trouble me. Actually I felt it was kind of helpful to aim at the belly as the second or third shot would be a headshot . But we will see what players do and base our next iteration on that data. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9801	Posted - 2014.10.31 04:51:00 - [2] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9805	Posted - 2014.10.31 05:26:00 - [3] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Rhetorical Question: How can one hope to balance weapons if the one in charge of balancing them has a never used the gun? Numbers are certainly important, but there's nothing like looking down the sight and firing it. That statement is a logical fallacy, sorry. How does an engineer design an airplane if he has never flown one? How does a scientist study gravity if he has never seen it? How does the physicist describe quantum physics without touching atoms? I can make more of these... It's usually called the Scientific Method, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Well said. Your approach has been really awesome for the game. I must say though that I'm pretty shocked you guys don't have an empty map where you play around with all of the toys on a regular basis. Who says we don't? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9812	Posted - 2014.10.31 05:48:00 - [4] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. Just based off the stats comparisons. Since the statistic that led to the RR hipfire nerf was usage (the K/S was not that much out of line), and the usage disparity for scout suits appears to be even more off, I suspect that's on the table for a future balance update/hotfix. So usage went up, despite not being OP, and then K/S just stayed highest because its good at long range? If that's the case, a CQC nerf will not have any effect, we can see that soon in the data. Another theory would be that upon discovering a weapon that was OP, players started using it, and even though everyone is using it, it did not reduce its K/S at all while also getting the most kills for all Rifles by a huge margin, not usage. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9832	Posted - 2014.10.31 08:34:00 - [5] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Thanks for all you do, but please troll someone else. I'm offering my opinion to try to help you and this game -- and responses like this certainly aren't reinforcing this behavior. I certainly appreciate good feedback, but even if you meant it nicely, I completely disagree with this particular feedback and how it was put forth. All that said and done, I did not mean to disrespect you or your intent to help the game. We are all in the same team. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9844	Posted - 2014.10.31 13:05:00 - [6] - Quote You are correct that kills and spawns go hand in hand, i am just underlining a few facts 1) even though players migrate over to RR, there is no dilution of efficiency as might be expected 2) the trajectory of RR kills and spawns is alarming and could have led to an even greater disparity 3) some players have been downplaying these numbers, by saying sales = usage = non indicative of efficiency, usage is spawns, kills is the result is maybe one way to detach the two 4) Low end RR were also dominant, not just prototype, which was worrying. End result, I want K/S to be similar, and for weapons of similar nature to have a similar result and usage. If the Rail had a K/S of 2 and a tiny kill %, it could be assumed that it was a tricky rifle to master, but difficult enough to either need extensive specialization or player skill. The Scrambler was a case of that, but had, similarly to the RR, far too much power in CQC. The plan was to lead the TAR and SCR together by aligning their attributes a little, plus range vs dps adjustments. So far, it worked pretty well. The Assault variants, can be treated like such a group, I would want them to be even in kills and K/S. Hope this sheds some further light on the balancing effort. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9887	Posted - 2014.11.01 02:57:00 - [7] - Quote Planetary conquest analysis up next week. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9922	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:58:00 - [8] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Which may be exactly what was intended by this nerf. Make it more of a niche weapon and drive down usage. Fox Gaden wrote: The RR was OP in the sense that it was the best weapon in the least skilled hands. It was too easy for low to mid level players to get exceptional results with it. It was too easy to use. Again, simply wrong. It was the most popular weapon, not the best. If it was the best, it would have had a clear K/S advantage. The data shows it does not...despite having a range advantage that would lead towards higher K/S situation -- killing at range. Fox Gaden wrote: So perhaps we need another word to use instead of Overpowered to describe this phenomena. (I detest the term GÇ£noob-tubGÇ¥ by the way.) I think the term you are looking for is overused or overpopular, not overpowered. Here's my take: The RR is popular because it was truly OP at the time it was introduced -- the time the entire playerbase got a respec. It is also popular for the same reason people like sniping -- it allows you to kill at range (albeit a much narrower range than the sniper rifle) where your targets can't effectively kill you -- and most maps have areas that allow you to do just that: Find one of the many spots in this game that allows you to watch the wide open approach areas. Or use a heavy's HP to overcome it's already glaring weakness in CQC. Luckily, that scrub tactic doesn't work in PC, as anyone who has played PCs recently can attest to, but even overwatch/approach camping works in PC, which is the niche that weapon fills in PC. Fox Gaden wrote: I think you are too focused on only the top 1% of players, and are not giving any consideration to the realities of balancing for the other 99%. Ratatti has to look at both. Perhaps. I've admitted that PC is my focus, and I play public matches to hone my (relatively lackluster) skills for PC. Shouldn't this game be balanced for both PC and Pubs? Even more to the point, shouldn't we evaluate both data sets before deciding what to do with a weapon? Leadfoot, I disagree with almost everything in this reply to Fox. Every time you said "wrong", I thought "right". How can you state that we are making the RR a "niche" weapon, when it almost has as many kills as the rest of the Rifles combined? The Rail Rifle is making all the other weapons "niche" weapons. How can you say repeatedly that the Rail does not have a clear K/S advantage, when it is the highest of all the Rifles? And twice that of many of them. The Rail Rifle is still used massively in PC and that was taken into account. It is not simply "overused" when it has the highest K/S as well. That doesnt make any sense. Even if it was OP when it was introduced, why is the Kill trend growing rapidly for the last 5 months? It literally means people are migrating to it, not stuck with a decision made around 1.8. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"