DUST Search - Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifles and Balancing Methodology

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifles and Balancing Methodology

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9555	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:22:00 - [1] - Quote Dear data fanatics, While I am currently writing a bigger piece on data and meta, I am going to run a little test case by the forums, both to battle-test the visualizations and to get some initial feedback. I will try to explain the thinking and supporting data as clearly as possible, even though this would be more fun as a presentation in front of a live audience. Case: The Rail Rifle KPI's: Kills, Spawns and K/S Sample: Prototype Rifles in Public Contracts since May 2014 (post 1.8 through all hotfixes) Data Insights: The Rail Rifle has the highest K/S in the sample, gets the most kills and is the most used Rifle currently Main Theory: The Rail Rifle is too effective Forum Support: Yes Secondary Theory: The following Rifles are not effective enough, Assault Scrambler, Burst Assault, Tactical Assault, and Assault Rail. Forum Support: Yes 1)Supporting Data GÇô K/S Chart The White Line is the average for all Kills and Spawns of the Sample. The Black Line is the 7 day K/S of all Rifles. Those two lines establish a baseline for Rifles versus other weapons, and a baseline for individual Rifles against the Rifle average. In the chart we can see that the previous changes we have made are reflected in the data, Scrambler Rifle nerf in Delta shows the K/S quickly declining and rallying, same for the Combat Rifle, multiple Tactical Assault Rifle buffs are reflected in the K/S growth over time and the Breach AR can be consider competitive and right on the White Line. We can also see that the Spread (Highest - Lowest) is getting smaller, from 1.85-0.55 = 1.3 in May to 1.70-1.0 = 0.7, almost a 50% decrease. That tells us that players that use these Rifles are able to get comparative performances. Now notice that the White Line, the average, is not in the middle of the lines as one might expect with balance getting better. This is because there are more players killing and spawning with the Rifles above the White Line, than the Rifles below the line. This is a cause of concern and prompts the second Chart. 2)Supporting Data GÇô Kills Chart Looking at this chart, there are quite a few observations to make. The sum of the top three Rifles is more than 50%, with ten Rifle options, there should be an equal amount above and below 50%. The dominance of the Rail Rifle is the reason for this situation, actually, the 5 next Rifles are fairly well balanced with regard to Kills. Then we have the (perpetual) underperformers, the Assault Scrambler, Burst Assault, Tactical and Assault Rail. The Assault Scrambler was buffed in the balance hotfix 2013.10 along with the Assault Rail Rifle. Both had been on a downward trend for some time. It is quite possible that the Burst Assault has not been discovered as it is not a high profile weapon, anecdotally and stats wise it should be competitive so a further buff was deemed inappropriate. Since, historically, the Combat Rifle and Scrambler Rifle both broke the 2.0 K/S line, they were nerfed as a responese but the Rail Rifle was under the radar for a while, especially with the downward trend in K/S after Delta, as it was not obviously overpowered, until combined with the Kills data. It is always possible that a weapon has a lot of Kills, e.g., familiarity, prevalence in Starter Fits, time and SP to spec into another weapon, etc, while not being overpowered. ThatGÇÖs why only one KPI should never be used on its own to balance. 3)Supporting Data GÇô Performance Charts Comparing these three historically powerful Rifles gives further insights, and especially when the forums repeatedly call for GÇ£the Combat RifleGÇ¥ to be next. In fact, it has already been nerfed in Delta. Since Spawns and Kills depend on the daily activity, all these numbers have been normalized by dividing by the total daily Spawns and Kills, respectively. The Green Area are the Spawns, reduction in these indicate the lack of interest by the playerbase, maybe because of stats, handling, migration to another weapon or bad synergy between dropsuit and weapon, or something else. The Green Line is the average Spawns, when the Green Area dips above or below that line, something is likely causing that change in trends. Similarly, the White Bars are the Kills and the White Line the average Kills. Again, being above or below a historical average usually indicates behavior trend changes. Finally, the Red Line is the 7 day Kills per Spawn, and the Red Dotted Line the average K/S. 3a) Supporting Data GÇô Combat Rifle 3b) Supporting Data GÇô Scrambler Rifle 3c) Supporting Data GÇô Rail Rifle The design of the Rail Rifle is to be a highly accurate, long range weapon. Following that design, and taking into account the massive, and continuous growth in Kills, the Rail RifleGÇÖs Close Combat ability was reduced severely by increasing Kick and Charge-up Time, with no change to ADS Dispersion or Kick. We will monitor these changes and player behavior, and make sure that the Rail Rifle does not become non-viable. The optimal situation would be that Rail Rifle users migrate to lesser used Rifles. If they mass-migrate to a single rifle, we will need to take some action in the near future. Please comment and give feedback "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2943	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:26:00 - [2] - Quote A-W-E-S-O-M-E. Could you record a presentation and upload it on youtube or something? You really are CCP/Dust 514-Jesus. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3592	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:31:00 - [3] - Quote Once again CCP Rattati this is how it's done. Thank you for keeping the community in the loop and offering such a marked improvement to the transparency of the Dust 514 iterative process. o7 Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1914	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:57:00 - [4] - Quote Graphs!!!!! Love em. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1275	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:04:00 - [5] - Quote Great lay down and honestly this is a dialogue I would prefer to have on coms or maybe you can come on to the Biomassed podcast with us one day. First...the stats seem quite solid, albeit difficult for me to interpret a bit. Note that I think they are factually accuate. Second...the stats don't always tell a full story and watching FOTM trends is not unlike the stock market. Numbers move based on peoples perceptions and that doesn't always mean the ground truth. It's very risky to balance game play on pure numbers without accounting for the human factor. RR and CR were heavily invested in post 1.8 due to them being a new weapon and they were over powered in comparison to the PR and SCR in particular. More people using the weapon lead to more kills which drives player perception that the weapon is OP. I remember when the venerable Duovolle AR was being labled "OP" left, right, and center (even by me once or twice) and there was only the SCR to compare it to. The proto AR of today is more powerful than the old "OP" version. I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. I think my concern is the balance tools being used to bring the weapon into balance simply will relegate the RR to status of the Flaylock of a few months ago. My bigger concern is that the racial lines are balanced to be equally competitive in the current play environment of Dust. There is an inherent issue when by default all tactical objectives force you to have the majority of your engagements in CQC range to secure victory and one race is a clear outlier to that design. The concept that Alena offered to you in regards to the ARR does help, however, you need to look across the racial lines in a holistic fashion I think. I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing and support your efforts on behalf of the community and I'm glad you are letting us all be a small part of the process. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1542	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:39:00 - [6] - Quote I see pretty graphs... can someone summerize what the basic gist now is ? (beside that many people use rail rilfe)
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 545	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:45:00 - [7] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen, great follow up. CCP Rattati thank you for more data, I hope in the future we can pull similar statics from a web backend to do our own graphing. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 202	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:49:00 - [8] - Quote This is very nice and transparent so we can help you! The performance of the weapons are starting to blend nicely! With the chart for the combat rifles their issue looks to be range. The assault variant needs lesser range than it has. The assault combat rifles area looks to need ranges falling behind Gallente Assault rifles. The basic burst combat rifle should be the range one but it needs more time between burst to even it on workable planes with the other light arms, with the exception to a few. Example shotgun and swarm launcher. With the rail rifle I think the issue is that the laser rifle has a hard time being effective against it in terms of range and I say the same for the tactical assault rifles. Their is not quite enough in ranges here. Earlier today, I had a scenario of this on Manus Peak's ambush map. It's so very wide open it gives a great test to range. The entire other team was able to push us back from G7-8 to I7-10 because nothing but a rail rifle could pose a threat. For popularity once all weapons are balanced preference among players will be inevitable, with the majority choosing one, the other percentage using the least used out of standing out, and of course your die hard fans of a specific weapon. (Lore etc.). Hope this helps!!! *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 273	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:50:00 - [9] - Quote This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 910	Posted - 2014.10.29 09:17:00 - [10] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the new amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. From what I hear, the hipfire seems a bit too out of whack in comparison to the other rifles. -However- CCP Rattati wrote: the Rail RifleGÇÖs Close Combat ability was reduced severely by increasing Kick and Charge-up Time, with no change to ADS Dispersion or Kick. This means that it's optimal range effectiveness has -not- been affected. Outside of 30-ish meters up to its effective of 100, the ADS should almost always be used and the recoil with operations up is completely manageable. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9566	Posted - 2014.10.29 09:54:00 - [11] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 10:57:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. I think people will bend over backwards to try and justify why one shouldn't nerf something just beause they find it the most efficient way of doing things. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:00:00 - [13] - Quote Wow so laser rifle doesn't even exist to yall no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:02:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. None of ur chart's. Included data on lr why no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:06:00 - [15] - Quote laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:08:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:09:00 - [17] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:15:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. yea but now the weapon FEELS bad. you shouldve nerfed the damage and increased the optimal range and decreased recoil to non existent in ads and bare minimum during hip fire. that wouldve achieved the same results and not making it viable in cqc and made it a superior long range rifle.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:21:00 - [19] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:31:00 - [20] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle the range profile isnt the same as RR. its optimal range is much higher and deals more damage at this range. its not general use because the weapon only is effective outside of short ranges and only when halfway over heated. meaning you must commit to an engagement and you cant pop in and out of cover like other weapons. general use, describes a weapon that can be used in most situations (cqc, sniping, assault, suppression) without a significant drop in effectiveness. the LR does not meet this requirement.

Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:32:00 - [21] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle the range profile isnt the same as RR. its optimal range is much higher and deals more damage at this range. its not general use because the weapon only is effective outside of short ranges and only when halfway over heated. meaning you must commit to an engagement and you cant pop in and out of cover like other weapons. general use, describes a weapon that can be used in most situations (cqc, sniping, assault, suppression) without a significant drop in effectiveness. the LR does not meet this requirement. It does not have to be preheated and it works down to 30m ..I've death touched heavies at 10 m It's really ******* hard even by my standards but I can use lr on ever map I have killed with it down to 4 m (bet ur ass that was precooked ) Precooked I'd no different than charging a scr no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:37:00 - [22] - Quote laser rifle is a suppression weapon EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
jhon hartigan Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 326	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:41:00 - [23] - Quote I m going to have a graphgasm! Great job Rattati, as always. I love your work and how you communicate with us. You see people not happy with something and you try to explain your reason, and this is so clear I think they wont be able to disagree. There is only one thing that scary me: that breach plasma rifle. In The first and the second graph, in the Last 10/15 days we can see K/S and Kills for BRAR going incredibly high. These are not only numbers, on the battlefield I see a lot of BRAR. So please Rattati check the stats of that weapon in the next days cause it may need a little(very little I think) nerf.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:00:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle Or rather every rifle is suppression lol it takes no lo get to kill with lr than any other gun ..Most often I get more kills than allot of the people I play with running lr.. Nope it's definitely made for the same purpose as rr tar ar arr scr ascr and all the other rifles ..people just trash it .. There is no reason for it ..lr is a tool for assault not suppression no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:05:00 - [25] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 621	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:35:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. perhaps a new LR variant that deals better damage without the "warm up" but damage wouldnt scale up as high as a normal LR? edit: assault LR
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2202	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:53:00 - [27] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle Maiden, the LR is not a general use rifle in any sense of the word. It does not generally get used it has very specific engagement ranges and lets be honest its not very popular because while it is an awesome weapon to use in very specific circumstances, it falls flat on its face when someone gets close or the type of level does not permit good positioning (Say indoors or in confined complexes). @ CCP - Awesome Dev blog. Its great that there are actual stats and graphs to back this all up. I always knew RR`s were the most used thing in pubs but I didn't realise it was quite like this. Hopefully we are getting closer to achieving balance. (Will the Combat Rifle be next?) "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 546	Posted - 2014.10.29 13:20:00 - [28] - Quote Yet, the problem is that the it's a jarring game for whats suppose to be a general weapon. Not a specialty weapon, if that's the case they should think hard about switching the ARR for the RR. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 311	Posted - 2014.10.29 13:49:00 - [29] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. perhaps a new LR variant that deals better damage without the "warm up" but damage wouldnt scale up as high as a normal LR? edit: assault LR Lol that would be cruel no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 74	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:06:00 - [30] - Quote thanks mr ratatti

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12844	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:20:00 - [31] - Quote Excellent post Rattati, exactly what me and many other people have been asking for! Also, if I am reading the data correctly, it looks like the Assault PR is still underperforming? It's quite a bit below average, it had a spike and then dropped down. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12844	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:22:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. I actually find the laser rifle beautifully designed. The warm up period allows it to be a ludicrously damaging weapon if you don't dive for cover while not being overly effective at everything else. It gives your opponent a few moments to realize "oh **** I should probably dive for cover" instead of instantly melting you, like the laser at max power does. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1478	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:24:00 - [33] - Quote So what I'm seeing here, is that the rifle was roughly balanced and you decided to hit it with a harsh nerf anyways, because you didn't like the fact that it was being used in a game where the map design accommodates two things - long range poking or short-ish range brawling. Range is king in shooters and always has been unless map design puts you in knife-fights all the time. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12844	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:27:00 - [34] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: So what I'm seeing here, is that the rifle was roughly balanced and you decided to hit it with a harsh nerf anyways, because you didn't like the fact that it was being used in a game where the map design accommodates two things - long range poking or short-ish range brawling. Range is king in shooters and always has been unless map design puts you in knife-fights all the time. Oh MINA, Arkena was right when he told me you are the most amusing poster on the forums! Here, have a cookie, you made me laugh. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1279	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:27:00 - [35] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the new amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. From what I hear, the hipfire seems a bit too out of whack in comparison to the other rifles. -However- CCP Rattati wrote: the Rail RifleGÇÖs Close Combat ability was reduced severely by increasing Kick and Charge-up Time, with no change to ADS Dispersion or Kick. This means that it's optimal range effectiveness has -not- been affected. Outside of 30-ish meters up to its effective of 100, the ADS should almost always be used and the recoil with operations up is completely manageable. 1) Not sure if you mean hip fire out of whack in terms of too good or too bad. One thing that does throw off CQC hipfire discussions is how damage per shot (alpha) effects this. My impression is the strongest asset in CQC the RR (and Breach AR for that matter has) is alpha damage. You have land few shots and the slow rate of fire lets you track the targets longer. 2) When using the RR at range it certainly can dominate in open terrain. The recoil is still quite noticable particularly when compared to other rifles. The weapon was designed for sustained long range fire and at range the combination of charge time and recoil both work to degrade the weapons ability to deliver it's lowest in-class level of DPS. That said, you are quite correct that ADS is the way to go with the weapon generally. My point is that it's a bit too similar to the LR to be a general use infantry weapon. . "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1280	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:30:00 - [36] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Maiden, the LR is not a general use rifle in any sense of the word. It does not generally get used it has very specific engagement ranges and lets be honest its not very popular because while it is an awesome weapon to use in very specific circumstances, it falls flat on its face when someone gets close or the type of level does not permit good positioning (Say indoors or in confined complexes). @ CCP - Awesome Dev blog. Its great that there are actual stats and graphs to back this all up. I always knew RR`s were the most used thing in pubs but I didn't realise it was quite like this. Hopefully we are getting closer to achieving balance. (Will the Combat Rifle be next?) If you insert "RR" for "LR" in your initial sentence you just described the RR quite accurately. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1479	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:41:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. I believe that if your game is designed in such a manner that one weapon is clearly the best suited to fighting at the most common engagement range, it should indeed be grabbing 50% of all kills. I am more than willing to agree that rail rifle prevalence was disproportionate and that part of the issue with it was that it performed equally across all races of suit. However these are not problems with the rail rifle in and of itself, but problems with overall game design. Can you provide data for how many kills rail rifles were getting 'per spawn' at ranges under 30m, compared to other weapons? Because it doesn't seem like the data you have supports the nerf that was made. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1281	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:43:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. CCP Rattati...I"m not sure I'm reading this with the intent you are trying to convey. To me, what you just said is that the reason for over (or even underpreformance) is irrelevant and that using nerfs and buffs to bring your usage percentages into your internal tolerance is your answer. I may be misreading your intent but that is what it sounds like. If I was reading it right...it seems a little short sighted or i really don't understand what you want the optimal % usage spread to be (i.e. 15% usage, +/- 2%). This also doesn't address that the nature of the game drives you to certain types of combat engagements to secure victory. Looking why things are outliers exist should be very important, perhaps as important as simply identifiing the outlier, because you may not acutally be solving the root problem. As to nerfing damage...I actually think you could make a good case for that. I honestly think the weapon usage concept wasn't on good ground and you are doing a solid job at working with it...it strikes me as one of the most difficult weapons to get into a sweet spot. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9610	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:23:00 - [39] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: So what I'm seeing here, is that the rail rifle was roughly balanced and you decided to hit it with a harsh nerf anyways, because you didn't like the fact that it was being used in a game where the map design accommodates two things - long range poking or short-ish range brawling. Range is king in shooters and always has been unless map design puts you in knife-fights all the time. :narrows eyes: ...not sure if serious "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1479	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:26:00 - [40] - Quote ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9613	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:28:00 - [41] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Because it doesn't seem like the data you have supports the nerf that was made. I believe it does, and have made a detailed fact based argument to support it. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9613	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:32:00 - [42] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1479	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:41:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges) into a specialist weapon (like the laser or massdriver or PLC). You are dramatically and arbitrarily limiting a weapons ability to play the objective in skirmish or domination style matches, simply because it is 'used' more frequently than you think it should be. I'd still like to see data provided for KDA's at various ranges, if you actually have such information. I'll point you towards Jasyn Larrisen's posts because he's better at expressing the underpinning issues of this. There are so many better ways that you could have done this Rattati. I'm not saying that the weapon didn't need to be tweaked or that I want it completely undone - I'm saying that what was done is overdone. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4140	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:43:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. Here's your tear vial Rattati. Go collect while they are still fresh. If you can't wow them with logic, then collect the prize. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Boot Booter Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 1004	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:45:00 - [45] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle Dude its just not, the rifles are assault rifle, Combat rifle, scrambler rifle, and rail rifle, as well as all their beautiful variants (some of which I'm still waiting for!) . One major rifle type for each race. Furthermore we have other weaponry that was not included in those balancing charts and function as more "niche" weapons If you will; plasma cannon, mass driver, laser rifle, swarm launcher, and sniper rifle. I'm sure Mr Rattati looks at those too though, so don't worry. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Boot Booter Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 1004	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:57:00 - [46] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges) into a specialist weapon (like the laser or massdriver or PLC). You are dramatically and arbitrarily limiting a weapons ability to play the objective in skirmish or domination style matches, simply because it is 'used' more frequently than you think it should be. I'd still like to see data provided for KDA's at various ranges, if you actually have such information. I'll point you towards Jasyn Larrisen's posts because he's better at expressing the underpinning issues of this. There are so many better ways that you could have done this Rattati. I'm not saying that the weapon didn't need to be tweaked or that I want it completely undone - I'm saying that what was done is overdone. Let me just stop you there. "Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges)" Using this philosophy the rail rifle would function over the largest range compared to other rifles simply because it has a greater optimal range. Essentially saying anyone who uses the rail rifle gets to enjoy more functional range compared to other rifles. This was balanced initially through dps vs range however data shows that the rail rifle was still overperforming despite falling in line with the dps vs range equation. This essentially pointed to the fact that it was too easy to use. Following, to keep the weapon in line with lore, Rattati reduced it's CQC effectiveness. Other options could have been reduced dps, reduced ads effectiveness, etc. Be happy with what you got. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 812	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:09:00 - [47] - Quote Awesome data. Those graphs are informative and also nice to look at. Thanks for sharing. You didn't show any range data, so I'm not going to comment on that. But if you're worried that short range rifles are underused while long range rifles are overused you could adapt the DPS/range-ratio you used to align the rifles a few hotfixes ago. Maybe versatility is just more highly appreciated by the players than expected. On the other hand they say too many cooks spoil spoil the broth. I think in game design it's most important to have one person with a vision and a few other people to bounce ideas back and forth.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1479	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:14:00 - [48] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Let me just stop you there. "Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges)" Using this philosophy the rail rifle would function over the largest range compared to other rifles simply because it has a greater optimal range. Essentially saying anyone who uses the rail rifle gets to enjoy more functional range compared to other rifles. This was balanced initially through dps vs range however data shows that the rail rifle was still overperforming despite falling in line with the dps vs range equation. This essentially pointed to the fact that it was too easy to use. Following, to keep the weapon in line with lore, Rattati reduced it's CQC effectiveness. Other options could have been reduced dps, reduced ads effectiveness, etc. Be happy with what you got. I would have happily taken reduced DPS. I think that there's a lot of problems with the DPS vs Range scale. To change the direction of this discussion a little bit I think that due to the way this game has been designed, the rail rifle comes out as the clear option for anything that isn't 'short range' partially because it performs equally across all suits (unlike the scrambler rifle which should be the true top performer). If you look at a map like spine crescent a rail rifle user standing on either end of the bridge can still be in effective cover yet fire at the other end of the bridge or at the closest socket to them while most people who want to shoot at them have to close pretty big open stretches of ground. Other weapons can't do this - this points mostly to an issue with map design as most of the 'engagement' ranges in this game are suited well towards the rail rifle. Anything that ISNT suited to the rail rifle like the inner sockets of iron delta ends up being the playground of the HMG. The problem was never with the rail rifles CQC, but its range and the common engagement ranges of this game. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9644	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:16:00 - [49] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges) into a specialist weapon (like the laser or massdriver or PLC). You are dramatically and arbitrarily limiting a weapons ability to play the objective in skirmish or domination style matches, simply because it is 'used' more frequently than you think it should be. I'd still like to see data provided for KDA's at various ranges, if you actually have such information. I'll point you towards Jasyn Larrisen's posts because he's better at expressing the underpinning issues of this. There are so many better ways that you could have done this Rattati. I'm not saying that the weapon didn't need to be tweaked or that I want it completely undone - I'm saying that what was done is overdone. Just like the AR is painted into a corner by having very short range? Arbitrarily? It means "based solely on one's opinion", does this seem a very arbitrary process? "Used" more? No, it kills more. The Chart shows Kills, not Spawns. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2069	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:19:00 - [50] - Quote Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:20:00 - [51] - Quote MINA Longstrike You have to pay attention to what was done to rail rifles.... The assault rail rifle has taken charge as being the close combat variant and the normal rail rifle is now better suited for long range. Rattati is on the ball with this and couldn't be anymore right. Just as there are different type of assault rifles, scrambler rifles, and combat rifles so are they for rail rifles. Balance demands it so start making fittings that use the other type of rail rifle. Best regards! *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1479	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:24:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just like the AR is painted into a corner by having very short range? Arbitrarily? It means "based solely on one's opinion", does this seem a very arbitrary process? "Used" more? No, it kills more. The Chart shows Kills, not Spawns. I've also strongly felt that the AR should have more range because it's currently stuck in the same playground as the HMG I have spoke openly about this whenever the idea of range as a gallente assault bonus has come up. The AR needs more range on just the base rifle. The chart has missed the key point of data that I've been asking for and that is what range are these kills occurring at. I'm fairly confident that you will see that most of the RR's kills happening at about 45-75m. It really seems like there are two options - Rail rifle for long ranges because standoff engagements can be forced, or HMG for short range because almost no other weapon can compare to its dps. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2069	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:26:00 - [53] - Quote Let me clarify some things about my opinions. When the RR received the 4x increase to hipfire kick, the ARR also received a 4x increase to hipfire kick. This is what my issue is. If this was an accident I'd like it fixed posthaste. If it was intentional, I'd like to know why so I can understand the reasoning better and can formulate a proper opinion on it. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:28:00 - [54] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
JIAF-PR 103	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:28:00 - [55] - Quote I take that is being discussed about weapons here to ask: about projectile weapons that was the change of -5% against shield and +10% against armor to -15% against shield and + 15% againts armor? not this supposed to be are very effective and powerful weapons like the Minmatar description says? Sorry for my English, JIAF-PR "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:29:00 - [56] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just like the AR is painted into a corner by having very short range? Arbitrarily? It means "based solely on one's opinion", does this seem a very arbitrary process? "Used" more? No, it kills more. The Chart shows Kills, not Spawns. I've also strongly felt that the AR should have more range because it's currently stuck in the same playground as the HMG I have spoke openly about this whenever the idea of range as a gallente assault bonus has come up. The AR needs more range on just the base rifle. The chart has missed the key point of data that I've been asking for and that is what range are these kills occurring at. I'm fairly confident that you will see that most of the RR's kills happening at about 45-75m. It really seems like there are two options - Rail rifle for long ranges because standoff engagements can be forced, or HMG for short range because almost no other weapon can compare to its dps. If that is done you are ignoring Laser weapons completely. We are trying to balance the game not keep the status quo of unbalance. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2069	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:45:00 - [57] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. The ARR is supposed to be good in CQC, but it is not. This is my issue. Not only is my DPS lower than the other assault variants, but the kick means I have to stop shooting, charge back up, and then continue firing, lowering my damage output even more. I also want it to get a range reduction to 60m. The current 71 is too far for an assault weapon to be. It's 3m less than the base RR. EDIT: In any case, I'd like to hear it from Rattati what he thinks since he is the final authority on changes. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:52:00 - [58] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. The ARR is supposed to be good in CQC, but it is not. This is my issue. Not only is my DPS lower than the other assault variants, but the kick means I have to stop shooting, charge back up, and then continue firing, lowering my damage output even more. I also want it to get a range reduction to 60m. The current 71 is too far for an assault weapon to be. It's 3m less than the base RR. EDIT: In any case, I'd like to hear it from Rattati what he thinks since he is the final authority on changes. This could work for the weapon too. I'll post my insights on it in a bit. going to try the weapon out now. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9039	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:52:00 - [59] - Quote I appreciate the graphs and all, but as I said before (with Rattati noting himself) is that you can't gather stats that are fully representative of a weapon's effectiveness when the variant models cost significantly more ISK than the base models of the same tier. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 117	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:56:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: blah blah blah Please comment and give feedback Keep up the good work Rattati, its good to see balancing dust with a thoughtful consideration of actual data P.S. please fix the assault rail rifle so that the bullets end up where the sights point, not just under it.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1480	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:58:00 - [61] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: f that is done you are ignoring Laser weapons completely. We are trying to balance the game not keep the status quo of unbalance. Cant properly balance something that has a grand total of 2 weapons. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2070	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:17:00 - [62] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: f that is done you are ignoring Laser weapons completely. We are trying to balance the game not keep the status quo of unbalance. Cant properly balance something that has a grand total of 2 weapons. MINA, going to level with you, the RR should not perform well in CQC. Personally I disagree with how Rattati went about making the RR not peform well, but in any case his end goal is perfectly in line with racial ideologies and balance. The RR should not perform well in CQC, just as the AR does not perform well at long range. I've been speaking out strongly on the ARR kick and range to give Caldari and RR users a viable CQC rifle, but in any case I want to push Rattati's vision of the RR being long range with limited CQC ability. The RR should suffer inside of another close range rifle's range. What I find to be a problem is the close range RR suffers just as badly in CQC. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1480	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:22:00 - [63] - Quote There's a strong difference between performing well and being able to perform at all. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:30:00 - [64] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. The ARR is supposed to be good in CQC, but it is not. This is my issue. Not only is my DPS lower than the other assault variants, but the kick means I have to stop shooting, charge back up, and then continue firing, lowering my damage output even more. I also want it to get a range reduction to 60m. The current 71 is too far for an assault weapon to be. It's 3m less than the base RR. EDIT: In any case, I'd like to hear it from Rattati what he thinks since he is the final authority on changes. Ok after playing roughly 5 ambush games, I have a better understanding of it all. The assault rail rifle doesn't feel in any way close combat, but instead I Have better luck with the magsec as my go to CQC rail spitting weapon of choice. the Assault rail seems to be more so the range between the magsec and the non assault rail rifle. The balance between those 3 weapons are much deeper in giving consideration to an overall Caldari view. Well done CCP, well done! Alena try switching between the magsec and the assault rail rifle on a fitting shooting them. The balance works nicely giving both of these weapons a nice contrast beautifully. Rattati and Rouge just might be the Yoda and Obi-wan to save this game. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 116	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:33:00 - [65] - Quote It would be nice if you create a data challenge with your dataset and asking for visualizations that could help to illustrate the status of dust514. Example Challenge Result sample Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2070	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:39:00 - [66] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. The ARR is supposed to be good in CQC, but it is not. This is my issue. Not only is my DPS lower than the other assault variants, but the kick means I have to stop shooting, charge back up, and then continue firing, lowering my damage output even more. I also want it to get a range reduction to 60m. The current 71 is too far for an assault weapon to be. It's 3m less than the base RR. EDIT: In any case, I'd like to hear it from Rattati what he thinks since he is the final authority on changes. Ok after playing roughly 5 ambush games, I have a better understanding of it all. The assault rail rifle doesn't feel in any way close combat, but instead I Have better luck with the magsec as my go to CQC rail spitting weapon of choice. the Assault rail seems to be more so the range between the magsec and the non assault rail rifle. The balance between those 3 weapons are much deeper in giving consideration to an overall Caldari view. Well done CCP, well done! Alena try switching between the magsec and the assault rail rifle on a fitting shooting them. The balance works nicely giving both of these weapons a nice contrast beautifully. Rattati and Rouge just might be the Yoda and Obi-wan to save this game. The issue then becomes, why not just use the base RR? Take a look at how the AScR behaves compared to the ScR. Or the ACR to the CR. The assault variants have far less kick, less range, and higher potential DPS (ScR being the outlier in DPS as a tactical variant) This is my problem. The assault variants all function from the 0-Xm range, save the ARR. Do you feel compelled to switch from your ACR to a sidearm if it gets close quarters? What about on your AR? Your AScR? Why is the ARR the only assault variant who needs to change to a sidearm for CQC? The ARR should be good in CQC, on that 0-Xm scale. It should have a longer optimal than the other assaults, but that's because it has less total DPS than the other assault variants. It definitely should have far less range than its base variant. I shouldn't have to switch from my CQC rifle to a sidearm for CQC fights. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1843	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:51:00 - [67] - Quote Why change the mechanics of kick and dispersion, both semi random variables? When you could have just created a bell curve of damage (aka laser rifle). So instead of doing 100% of its damage at 5m it does 50%. This still rewards players for skillful placement and shooting. Nothing is more frustrating to have random bullet spread win engagements. RR will still do plenty of killing in CQC by pure luck rather than skill now. Spamming of the fire button in panic situations will still net kills because a stray bullet hit them in the head. Granted it won't be "AS" effective; it now is up to chance, rather than skill. The rifle only handles differently in CQC, but can still put out just as much damage if luck is in your favor. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 73	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:56:00 - [68] - Quote Simply put what was done to the RR, the way it was implemented, was excessive. Yes the RR needed a CQC nerf but the way its been done has made it so you cant hip fire an RR. In comparison to weapons meant for CQC that can still ADS for long engagements. For instance when you ADS an AR your sights dont bounce uncontrollably all over the screen. So in essence now its nearly impossible to hip fire an RR.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:04:00 - [69] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Once again, the ARR needs less hipfire kick. If its supposed to be the RR CQC option, then it does not perform its role properly at all. Reduce the kick, while at the same time reducing the range to 60m. Please Rattati, tell me your thoughts on these changes. Many of the proficient people in PC that use the assault rail rifle are swearing that it's fine and opening up other weapons access to be competitive. The biggest thing for the assault rail rifle would be if it had the long charge as the other variant has, but that is not the case. I will get on my Caldari account and test these things out for myself but I still value my sources as they are avid players looking for competitive balanced common ground across the game. The ARR is supposed to be good in CQC, but it is not. This is my issue. Not only is my DPS lower than the other assault variants, but the kick means I have to stop shooting, charge back up, and then continue firing, lowering my damage output even more. I also want it to get a range reduction to 60m. The current 71 is too far for an assault weapon to be. It's 3m less than the base RR. EDIT: In any case, I'd like to hear it from Rattati what he thinks since he is the final authority on changes. Ok after playing roughly 5 ambush games, I have a better understanding of it all. The assault rail rifle doesn't feel in any way close combat, but instead I Have better luck with the magsec as my go to CQC rail spitting weapon of choice. the Assault rail seems to be more so the range between the magsec and the non assault rail rifle. The balance between those 3 weapons are much deeper in giving consideration to an overall Caldari view. Well done CCP, well done! Alena try switching between the magsec and the assault rail rifle on a fitting shooting them. The balance works nicely giving both of these weapons a nice contrast beautifully. Rattati and Rouge just might be the Yoda and Obi-wan to save this game. The issue then becomes, why not just use the base RR? Take a look at how the AScR behaves compared to the ScR. Or the ACR to the CR. The assault variants have far less kick, less range, and higher potential DPS (ScR being the outlier in DPS as a tactical variant) This is my problem. The assault variants all function from the 0-Xm range, save the ARR. Do you feel compelled to switch from your ACR to a sidearm if it gets close quarters? What about on your AR? Your AScR? Why is the ARR the only assault variant who needs to change to a sidearm for CQC? The ARR should be good in CQC, on that 0-Xm scale. It should have a longer optimal than the other assaults, but that's because it has less total DPS than the other assault variants. It definitely should have far less range than its base variant. I shouldn't have to switch from my CQC rifle to a sidearm for CQC fights. There are many factors that govern the assault scrambler rifle such as heat build up, -20% profile and at long ranges its much harder to use. At medium range the assault scrambler rifle relies on trigger discipline to kill targets, and then the scrambler pistol is more suited as a medium range weapon. With minmitar weapons, excluding the explosive weapons, they are probably up next on CCP"s agenda. Assault combat rifle needs drop off in its range, while the Combat Rifle needs to be a weapon that can pose a threat to the non assault rail rifle. For balance the Laser Rifle needs more range and the same for the Tactical Assault Rifle. You just have to understand how all the weapons play out according to how CCP is using the lore they have created for the different races. The Assault Rail Rifle is still a better aim down sights weapon but hip firing is achievable, but the weapon that shines with CQC is the magsec. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6815	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:26:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear data fanatics, While I am currently writing a bigger piece on data and meta, I am going to run a little test case by the forums, both to battle-test the visualizations and to get some initial feedback. I will try to explain the thinking and supporting data as clearly as possible, even though this would be more fun as a presentation in front of a live audience. Hah! ****in' nice, knew you had it in you! Now we're getting more on track with Eve Online's development process. Now the community can visibly see -WHY- changes were made, form their own opinions, and make a more educated stand-point. Of course there will be misfits who don't agree with the data presented but more people in the community will be closely aligned with the argument you're making because they're not informed; seeing things from a perspective they might not have previously considered. Dial up CCP raRaRa and tell him Aeon Amadi wants a +10 like button. { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2071	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:27:00 - [71] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: There are many factors that govern the assault scrambler rifle such as heat build up, -20% profile and at long ranges its much harder to use. At medium range the assault scrambler rifle relies on trigger discipline to kill targets, and then the scrambler pistol is more suited as a medium range weapon. With minmitar weapons, excluding the explosive weapons, they are probably up next on CCP"s agenda. Assault combat rifle needs drop off in its range, while the Combat Rifle needs to be a weapon that can pose a threat to the non assault rail rifle. For balance the Laser Rifle needs more range and the same for the Tactical Assault Rifle. You just have to understand how all the weapons play out according to how CCP is using the lore they have created for the different races. The Assault Rail Rifle is still a better aim down sights weapon but hip firing is achievable, but the weapon that shines with CQC is the magsec. What they've been trying to achieve is having variants that mimic the racial base. For instance, the Tac AR mimics the ScR (base tactical). The ARR mimics the AR (base assault). The Breach CR will mimic the RR (base breach). The issue is, the ARR does not properly mimic the AR, and while it's gotten much better than it was with the damage and magazine size buff, is still too similar to the base RR in terms of hipfire kick and range. It should be more like the AR; far less kick, reduced range. In this way, it not only gives people with SP in RR a CQC option, similar to how the Tac AR gives people with SP in ARs a long range option, but it also makes the ARR distinguished from the base RR as the Tac AR is distinguished from the AR. As it stands, both RR and ARR are horrible for CQC, both have nearly identical ranges. This should not be. Imagine the Tac AR had only 3m more range than the base AR. The ARR should not be as good as, say, the ACR or the AR on that 0-Xm CQC engagement range, but neither should it be just as bad as the RR at that same range. Otherwise, what's the point of having it at all? If it functions just as bad in CQC, what does it bring to the table that makes it unique from the RR? ARR should be the Caldari close range rifle, just as the AR is the Gallente close range rifle, just as the AScR is the Amarr close range rifle, just as the ACR is the Minmatar close range rifle. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Toby Flenderson research lab 596	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:30:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. Because it paints it into a corner like the laser rifle, you are turning a racial servicemans weapon (a weapon that should be functional across all ranges) into a specialist weapon (like the laser or massdriver or PLC). You are dramatically and arbitrarily limiting a weapons ability to play the objective in skirmish or domination style matches, simply because it is 'used' more frequently than you think it should be. I'd still like to see data provided for KDA's at various ranges, if you actually have such information. I'll point you towards Jasyn Larrisen's posts because he's better at expressing the underpinning issues of this. There are so many better ways that you could have done this Rattati. I'm not saying that the weapon didn't need to be tweaked or that I want it completely undone - I'm saying that what was done is overdone. Just like the AR is painted into a corner by having very short range? Arbitrarily? It means "based solely on one's opinion", does this seem a very arbitrary process? "Used" more? No, it kills more. The Chart shows Kills, not Spawns. I just skilled into lvl 3 cal assault last week and have RR ops to lvl 1. I had been using the AR as my main rifle basically since uprising 1.0 so the range transition was difficult at first but I got used to it. That being said I am in full support of nerfing CQC. I can still beat ARs in about half of my CQC encounters depending on the situation. The reversed scenario (AR at RR range) is virtually impossible to succeed in considering the massive damage drop off of the AR. I know this has probably been said multiple times but it can't be said enough considering all of the opposition to the nerf .
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1890	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:33:00 - [73] - Quote Thank you, so much, Rattati for all you have done to bring balance into this game. I cannot express enough all the good you've done for the game. I, however, must admit that I think you got it wrong on this particular nerf. Not so much on the need, but rather then method, because the RR was already the worst in CQC, and now it borders on the unusable. Did you, by any chance, look at the K/S when compared to the range when the kill occurred before deciding to nerf the CQC performance of the RR? Because I suspect that the real reason this weapon was as widely used and as powerful was because people are using it to kill at range (which tends to be less risky) rather than it's weakness in CQC (which tends to be more risky, and an area the RR was already fairly gimped to begin with) --- and it didn't seem all that off in K/S from other weapons to begin with yet it is very clearly being used at a much higher frequency. Thanks again....Leadfoot p.s. Do you have any plans to turn your attention from weapon prevalence to an even bigger imbalance in usage than the RR...the scout suit? That problem, based on the data I saw in another thread, is even worse with scout suits than it was with RR.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2071	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:37:00 - [74] - Quote Again I ask Rattati, was the hipfire kick increase to the ARR intentional or accidental? Would you be willing to consider reducing it to pre-balance kick numbers? Did nothing change and I'm having hallucinations on the recoil? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 203	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:38:00 - [75] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: There are many factors that govern the assault scrambler rifle such as heat build up, -20% profile and at long ranges its much harder to use. At medium range the assault scrambler rifle relies on trigger discipline to kill targets, and then the scrambler pistol is more suited as a medium range weapon. With minmitar weapons, excluding the explosive weapons, they are probably up next on CCP"s agenda. Assault combat rifle needs drop off in its range, while the Combat Rifle needs to be a weapon that can pose a threat to the non assault rail rifle. For balance the Laser Rifle needs more range and the same for the Tactical Assault Rifle. You just have to understand how all the weapons play out according to how CCP is using the lore they have created for the different races. The Assault Rail Rifle is still a better aim down sights weapon but hip firing is achievable, but the weapon that shines with CQC is the magsec. What they've been trying to achieve is having variants that mimic the racial base. For instance, the Tac AR mimics the ScR (base tactical). The ARR mimics the AR (base assault). The Breach CR will mimic the RR (base breach). The issue is, the ARR does not properly mimic the AR, and while it's gotten much better than it was with the damage and magazine size buff, is still too similar to the base RR in terms of hipfire kick and range. It should be more like the AR; far less kick, reduced range. In this way, it not only gives people with SP in RR a CQC option, similar to how the Tac AR gives people with SP in ARs a long range option, but it also makes the ARR distinguished from the base RR as the Tac AR is distinguished from the AR. As it stands, both RR and ARR are horrible for CQC, both have nearly identical ranges. This should not be. Imagine the Tac AR had only 3m more range than the base AR. The ARR should not be as good as, say, the ACR or the AR on that 0-Xm CQC engagement range, but neither should it be just as bad as the RR at that same range. Otherwise, what's the point of having it at all? If it functions just as bad in CQC, what does it bring to the table that makes it unique from the RR? ARR should be the Caldari close range rifle, just as the AR is the Gallente close range rifle, just as the AScR is the Amarr close range rifle, just as the ACR is the Minmatar close range rifle. I don't see it working to that extent. The example you used says the (Charge) Scrambler and Tactical Assault rifle are similar, but the only thing they share is semi automatic firing. If anything the Ion Pistol has more in common with the Scrambler rifle than the TAC AR. What Is there in data and non data is each racial variant family of weapons has another weapon that covers the areas that another racial variant does, but the weapons are not at all the exact same. There is no other weapon that operates like the Laser Rifle other than the laser rifle, but it needs long range to balance out the racial weapon variants for Amarr to have a go to long range light assault weapon. We are not asking it to have the exact same range as the Rail rifle, but enough range to where it can cause the rail rifle concern and vice versa. The same goes for the Tactical assault rifle, and the Combat Rifle. I do not know any other simpler way to explain this. If CCP moved away from this and made it how you described it above I doubt there will be any "flavor" to the weapons. CCO is trying to make an enjoyment factor here that will continue to last. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1890	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:40:00 - [76] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Again I ask Rattati, was the hipfire kick increase to the ARR intentional or accidental? Would you be willing to consider reducing it to pre-balance kick numbers? Did nothing change and I'm having hallucinations on the recoil? As a long time user of the ARR, I did not notice any difference in hipfire kick. Then again, I've not been using the ARR as much recently, with much of my recent playtime either using dual sidearms or the BrAR. All that said, I've seen your observation about ARR changes repeated by a few other people, so I'd also like to know if something was changed there unintentionally.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 600	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:52:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: If they mass-migrate to a single rifle, we will need to take some action in the near future. Please comment and give feedback My money's on the breach assault rifle!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2072	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:52:00 - [78] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: I don't see it working to that extent. The example you used says the (Charge) Scrambler and Tactical Assault rifle are similar, but the only thing they share is semi automatic firing. If anything the Ion Pistol has more in common with the Scrambler rifle than the TAC AR. What Is there in data and non data is each racial variant family of weapons has another weapon that covers the areas that another racial variant does, but the weapons are not at all the exact same. There is no other weapon that operates like the Laser Rifle other than the laser rifle, but it needs long range to balance out the racial weapon variants for Amarr to have a go to long range light assault weapon. We are not asking it to have the exact same range as the Rail rifle, but enough range to where it can cause the rail rifle concern and vice versa. The same goes for the Tactical assault rifle, and the Combat Rifle. I do not know any other simpler way to explain this. If CCP moved away from this and made it how you described it above I doubt there will be any "flavor" to the weapons. CCO is trying to make an enjoyment factor here that will continue to last. I don't get how the laser rifle applies since it has no variants nor is it a rifle. What the basic idea of the rifles is: Each race specializes in a particular variant. Assault for Gallente, Breach for Caldari, Tactical for Amarr, and Burst for Minmatar. Now, for variants, the races attempt to tweak their tech to mimic the other race. In the ARR's case, it is the Caldari taking the RR and attempting to have it function similar to the Gallente AR. The Tac AR is the Gallente attempting to make their AR function similar to the Amarr ScR. In a nutshell, all assault variants are the other races attempting to tweak their rifles to behave like the Gallente AR does. The tactical variants are the races attempting to tweak their rifles to behave like the Amarr ScR does. So on and so forth. In this light, the ARR does not function like the Gallente AR does (low recoil, low range in this case) which is what I'm campaigning to have change. In any case, having Rattati tell us one way or the other will settle the debate handily, and we can then suggest ideas within that framework he gives us. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2072	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:53:00 - [79] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Again I ask Rattati, was the hipfire kick increase to the ARR intentional or accidental? Would you be willing to consider reducing it to pre-balance kick numbers? Did nothing change and I'm having hallucinations on the recoil? As a long time user of the ARR, I did not notice any difference in hipfire kick. Then again, I've not been using the ARR as much recently, with much of my recent playtime either using dual sidearms or the BrAR. All that said, I've seen your observation about ARR changes repeated by a few other people, so I'd also like to know if something was changed there unintentionally. Thus my asking. Let's hear it from the guy with the data and spreadsheets and changelog in front of him. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:57:00 - [80] - Quote I'm loving the RR nerf, although I miss the old ARR, it is still fun to use.

postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 483	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:03:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: So what I'm seeing here, is that the rail rifle was roughly balanced and you decided to hit it with a harsh nerf anyways, because you didn't like the fact that it was being used in a game where the map design accommodates two things - long range poking or short-ish range brawling. Range is king in shooters and always has been unless map design puts you in knife-fights all the time. :narrows eyes: ...not sure if serious I tried to tell her yesterday how wrong she see the RR, but she honestly dont want to understand and she will still blindly yelling how it was unfair. "Nanohives, repairs or droplinks, just ask me on field i can tink anything"
Iron Toast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:14:00 - [82] - Quote Thanks for the plots! Can you plot the number of active users skilled into each prototype rifle for the same time period? I don't have any weapons to proto, but I find the RR to be one of most viable weapons at MLT / STD (the shotgun being the other). The range allows it to be used to pick off stragglers and roof campers, to roof camp, etc. Because of the range it is also the only rifle that I'm personally able to use to kill a HMG sentinel. Trying other rifles will often get me killed at 60 m to a HMG. This low-level viability may encourage newer players to skill into it first. I also seem to get more head shots with the RR than other rifles - partially due to the ability to better aim at enemies that cannot shoot back, but also with spray and pray tactics. The RR nicely complements a HMG buddy.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 812	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:41:00 - [83] - Quote By the way, if you're still looking into why some rifles are underused, you could take a look at fitting requirements of the main rifles. (Hint: Adv ACR 4 PG, adv ASCR 12 PG - ouch )

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9719	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:17:00 - [84] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Let me clarify some things about my opinions. When the RR received the 4x increase to hipfire kick, the ARR also received a 4x increase to hipfire kick. This is what my issue is. If this was an accident I'd like it fixed posthaste. If it was intentional, I'd like to know why so I can understand the reasoning better and can formulate a proper opinion on it. We will look into that post haste "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 317	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:19:00 - [85] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: There are many factors that govern the assault scrambler rifle such as heat build up, -20% profile and at long ranges its much harder to use. At medium range the assault scrambler rifle relies on trigger discipline to kill targets, and then the scrambler pistol is more suited as a medium range weapon. With minmitar weapons, excluding the explosive weapons, they are probably up next on CCP"s agenda. Assault combat rifle needs drop off in its range, while the Combat Rifle needs to be a weapon that can pose a threat to the non assault rail rifle. For balance the Laser Rifle needs more range and the same for the Tactical Assault Rifle. You just have to understand how all the weapons play out according to how CCP is using the lore they have created for the different races. The Assault Rail Rifle is still a better aim down sights weapon but hip firing is achievable, but the weapon that shines with CQC is the magsec. What they've been trying to achieve is having variants that mimic the racial base. For instance, the Tac AR mimics the ScR (base tactical). The ARR mimics the AR (base assault). The Breach CR will mimic the RR (base breach). The issue is, the ARR does not properly mimic the AR, and while it's gotten much better than it was with the damage and magazine size buff, is still too similar to the base RR in terms of hipfire kick and range. It should be more like the AR; far less kick, reduced range. In this way, it not only gives people with SP in RR a CQC option, similar to how the Tac AR gives people with SP in ARs a long range option, but it also makes the ARR distinguished from the base RR as the Tac AR is distinguished from the AR. As it stands, both RR and ARR are horrible for CQC, both have nearly identical ranges. This should not be. Imagine the Tac AR had only 3m more range than the base AR. The ARR should not be as good as, say, the ACR or the AR on that 0-Xm CQC engagement range, but neither should it be just as bad as the RR at that same range. Otherwise, what's the point of having it at all? If it functions just as bad in CQC, what does it bring to the table that makes it unique from the RR? ARR should be the Caldari close range rifle, just as the AR is the Gallente close range rifle, just as the AScR is the Amarr close range rifle, just as the ACR is the Minmatar close range rifle. I don't see it working to that extent. The example you used says the (Charge) Scrambler and Tactical Assault rifle are similar, but the only thing they share is semi automatic firing. If anything the Ion Pistol has more in common with the Scrambler rifle than the TAC AR. What Is there in data and non data is each racial variant family of weapons has another weapon that covers the areas that another racial variant does, but the weapons are not at all the exact same. There is no other weapon that operates like the Laser Rifle other than the laser rifle, but it needs long range to balance out the racial weapon variants for Amarr to have a go to long range light assault weapon. We are not asking it to have the exact same range as the Rail rifle, but enough range to where it can cause the rail rifle concern and vice versa. The same goes for the Tactical assault rifle, and the Combat Rifle. I do not know any other simpler way to explain this. If CCP moved away from this and made it how you described it above I doubt there will be any "flavor" to the weapons. CCP is trying to make an enjoyment factor here that will continue to last. LR outranges rr no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 317	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:20:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Let me clarify some things about my opinions. When the RR received the 4x increase to hipfire kick, the ARR also received a 4x increase to hipfire kick. This is what my issue is. If this was an accident I'd like it fixed posthaste. If it was intentional, I'd like to know why so I can understand the reasoning better and can formulate a proper opinion on it. We will look into that post haste The arr kick should be removed looks accidental I'm sure you'll fix it Rattati ..Ps thanks for removing kick from ascr it's beautiful no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2080	Posted - 2014.10.30 00:02:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Let me clarify some things about my opinions. When the RR received the 4x increase to hipfire kick, the ARR also received a 4x increase to hipfire kick. This is what my issue is. If this was an accident I'd like it fixed posthaste. If it was intentional, I'd like to know why so I can understand the reasoning better and can formulate a proper opinion on it. We will look into that post haste Oh thank you thank you thank you! This will do wonders to aid the ARR in CQC where it should shine. As a suggestion, I would put it back to its pre-balance values and run metrics from there. Although I still suggest a range reduction for it as well. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3239	Posted - 2014.10.30 00:41:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Let me clarify some things about my opinions. When the RR received the 4x increase to hipfire kick, the ARR also received a 4x increase to hipfire kick. This is what my issue is. If this was an accident I'd like it fixed posthaste. If it was intentional, I'd like to know why so I can understand the reasoning better and can formulate a proper opinion on it. We will look into that post haste Range should be reduced though to 55-60 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
DDx77 Kinsho Swords Caldari State 14	Posted - 2014.10.30 00:47:00 - [89] - Quote "yea but now the weapon FEELS bad. you shouldve nerfed the damage and increased the optimal range and decreased recoil to non existent in ads and bare minimum during hip fire." Really the main issue with the nerf. I'm still wondering why increasing the charge up time wouldn't have done the trick in cqc ( an assault or cr user has first strike) Reducing dmg and having it build up like the lr may have worked too. Obviously it is difficult to test everything with a limited staff, but are these possibilities up for consideration? And thank you for looking into the ARR kick issue
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1911	Posted - 2014.10.30 07:08:00 - [90] - Quote With apologies to the Asia players on my team for whom I was no help, I played around a bit more between PCs and queue-syncing FW tonight.... The ARR kick is different from the RR kick -- less vertical and more side to side. Making it even harder to control in CQC in relation. My test was as follows: Take ARR, aim at a spot on a wall, rip through entire clip of 58 rounds with hipfire, note where cursor landed. Repeat with RR clip of 42 rounds. Repeat with BrAR clip of 36 rounds Repeat with AR clip of Repeat with CR clip of 54 rounds. Repeat with ACR clip of 54 rounds. I did all this with proto versions of the weapons with max skills (except the CR a weapon I have only level 1 operations) and repeated the tests a few times as kick has some random elements to it. Here's what I found: The RR kicked to vertical (about 120 degrees total, and I actually had to aim down in order to measure it). The kick was mostly vertical but had some small, random left to right kick (a few degrees). The ARR kicked to about 45 to 60 degrees., However, the kick was much more side-to-side than the RR, often going 15 or more degrees off target. (note this is MUCH more difficult to correct for as it's also seemingly random left or right versus the mostly-vertical and much-more-predictible kick of the RR -- I suspect that's why this weapon preforms as poorly as it does in CQC) The BrAr kicked about half the height of its hipfire dispersion (less than 5 degrees) and about the same left to right. The AR kicked about the height of its hipifire dispersion (about 5 degrees) and about half of that little left to right. The CR had about five pixels of rise (rapid button pushing was required and total rise was a degree or two), and a pixel or two of left to right. The ACR had about five pixels of rise (same as CR) and the same left-to-right. I think I finally understand why rifle CQC is dominated by the CR and AR, why I've preferred the BrAR since I picked it up a few weeks ago, and why the RR (and even moreso the ARR) is so hard to control after a few shots. I was also a bit surprised to find the kick of the ARR even worse than the RR once I tested it and used it for a few rounds focusing on CQC encounters. ADS it's great, but wow, the ARR may be even worse than the RR in terms of ability to put DPS on a target in CQC without stopping shooting for a third or a half of a second and allowing the gun to settle. That side to side kick is in random directions and very difficult to react to. No wonder I was the only one using it. lol I think I'm going to finally bite the bullet and add a CR to my proto rifle collection once I receive the sidearm event points. Even the basic one rocks if you time the bursts. Kind of reminded me of the Burst AR from way back....

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4154	Posted - 2014.10.30 07:41:00 - [91] - Quote This sounds like an error. Horizontal recoil is an artifact of weapon design and operator habit. It almost never is a consideration on man- portable weapons except on large belt fed weapons like the M-60 and M-240 machineguns because of how you have to brace to hipfire them (seriously, never do this with a 240. You have to brace yourself with another person or the recoil will put you on your ass). Even then the recoil almost invariably pulls the barrel upwards and to the right except for a rare few southpaws that cannot be trained to hold the weapons correctly. The only other side recoil you will get is holding a sidearm or SMG sideways. It's just the way recoil works. Without having a grip point at an angle at 45-90 degrees from the top and bottom you shouldn't get more than 15 or so degree pulls to the left or right from recoil. Side to side recoil is an artifact of FPS hollywood physics. There is a reason why I say hard scifi and Hollywood scifi physics don't play nice together. You have to pick one or the other lest you have to really reach up your ass to force things to perform the way you want it to. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 624	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:54:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Completely serious. There hasn't been any data provided that suggests that the RR was overperforming in CQC or that it was even getting a much much higher KDR than other weapons. Just a lot of data that says "people like using it". lol, if it wasn't being used in CQC, why does an exclusive CQC nerf bother you, ADS wasn't touched. it bothers me because the RR should still be functional and usable in CQC. every rifle in the game except for the RR now can reliably apply some amount of damage at any range. an AR can still hit a target at its max range, so can the CR and ScR. they can also reliably hit targets at close range. so why does the RR get a nerf to damage application? no other is like that. in fact you actually just buffed the Tac AR by increasing its damage application, a total reversal of its nerf from before designed to hinder the weapon in CQC. you did the same thing with ScR. so why have you buffed the viabilty of other long range weapons in CQC? if we go back to the dev blog annoucing the RR... it says it was intended to be a fully automatic long range precision rifle. the RR is not precise in full auto, and it never has been. the kick has always been too much at the high end of its effective range, even in ADS. the weapon should be able to reliable strike targets at any range and deal consistent but LOWER damage. this means the RR should have lower recoil, even higher optimal range (without increasing effective range), and lower damage per shot. this allows for accurate fire at any range. low DPS make the out classed in CQC by higher DPS weapons, while higher optimal range means that its lower DPS actually out performs (and out DPS) higher DPS weapons at range where they end up being used outside of their optimal ranges. TL:DR undo the RR nerf. instead, lower damage and increase optimal range. lower recoil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4164	Posted - 2014.10.30 11:58:00 - [93] - Quote You cannot balance an alpha weapon to perform poorly in CQC without making it borderline worthless. This is why I keep saying make breach rifles cqc and make assaults long range. Most games balance rapid fire for short range because they utilize hollywood physics. Hollywood physics do morr damage than good in games like DUST. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2088	Posted - 2014.10.30 15:13:00 - [94] - Quote Rattati, any word on the ARR kick? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 552	Posted - 2014.10.30 16:54:00 - [95] - Quote remove Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1297	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:48:00 - [96] - Quote Thanks for posting this and as someone who has not logged into the game in quite some time I am very eager to see more. That said I'm gonna make fun of you a bit. First, for the Kills chart... come on man, that axis. Second, for the K/S chart you may as well be making the lines vibrate with those colors. You have 12 lines and use 4 shades of orange/yellow, 4 shades of blue, 3 shades of black/white, and 1 green. I have to zoom in and constantly check the legend because those blues are so damn similar. The blues are also the ones with the most other lines around them. Maybe distribute those colors a bit better? Also maybe some grouping? I don't know what it is with you guys but you put things in the most random orders. Grouping colors to types (along with better visibility) would make it much easier to find what I'm looking for. If all the ARs are green I can easily see overall AR performance as well. I'm not saying you need to spend a ton of time on this but maybe have some sort of pattern? I'll skip style critiques for the other charts as I think you get the idea. Also I know you guys mostly use Google Docs for distributing data but maybe you could try... Google Docs? You may be able to find some successful examples somewhere. It removes a lot of the color variation concern when i can just highlight lines. Also I love the inclusion of events, however it is hard to determine where the actual "line" is for them. For example Bravo released 10 days before the Expert challenge event, but it is hard to see that fact on the chart. Which leads me to my next point that you don't need to do all this personally. I just spent a ton of my time working on something based on your data. Clearly you have a community willing to foolishly waste their own time. I've logged in maybe 1 to 2 times in the past half year and I was willing to throw in time. Give us the raw data so anyone digging into the information can have an easier time. I mean the numbers are technically there. I could overlay a grid and get decent estimates pretty quickly. But why make me work for it? Plus it makes things easier with google docs. That said definitely give explanations because yes people are going to fit data to match their own conclusions rather than search for all possible conclusions. I caught myself doing that already. I'm no statistician. I am not even 100% sure if I read the data from the K/S sheet right because of those freaking blues. As for the data itself, I know ranges were normalized in Bravo so my guess is pre-Bravo Advanced weapon data is way different, but this guy would imply that a lot of action is going on in non-protoland. Even if the data is only Bravo onwards I'd be curious to have a look. I know historically many people who could run proto would not (especially in public matches). I imagine you've looked at the data yourself but I can't help feeling like the representative group for this data can only be a smaller percent of the player population (even if only compared to advanced gear use). I know in many ways giving us unfiltered data can lead to simple inaccurate statements that start angry mobs (Subdredditors do go on Reddit now and then after all) but then what's the worst that might happen? People getting into a huff over absurd stuff they don't properly understand and complaining on the forums? Oh noooooo.... P.S. Also those yellows. I'm pretty sure I saw this exact picture on the wall in the movie Psycho.
XxVEXESxX 35	Posted - 2014.10.31 00:57:00 - [97] - Quote Great Job Rattati! I'm loving the changes to the ACr too. Glad that was done at the same time as the RR and AScr changes to prevent a simple substitution. Bumping the Min dispersion was much needed. Starting to notice a lot of migration to AR, AScr and lasers since the tweaks. The battlefield is starting to see more diversity. Looking forward to more graphs in the coming future. PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist MK.0 A/C/L
Rei Ayame Glitched Connection 4	Posted - 2014.10.31 14:00:00 - [98] - Quote So all the rifles seems to have a higher kill per spawn than 1. So who is dying? Niche weapons like the mass driver, PLC, and Laser rifle. Please make them equally competetive as the rifles, just our of curiosity what is their kill per spawn?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9852	Posted - 2014.10.31 14:20:00 - [99] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: Thanks for posting this and as someone who has not logged into the game in quite some time I am very eager to see more. That said I'm gonna make fun of you a bit. First, for the Kills chart... come on man, that axis. Second, for the K/S chart you may as well be making the lines vibrate with those colors. You have 12 lines and use 4 shades of orange/yellow, 4 shades of blue, 3 shades of black/white, and 1 green. I have to zoom in and constantly check the legend because those blues are so damn similar. The blues are also the ones with the most other lines around them. Maybe distribute those colors a bit better? Also maybe some grouping? I don't know what it is with you guys but you put things in the most random orders. Grouping colors to types (along with better visibility) would make it much easier to find what I'm looking for. If all the ARs are green I can easily see overall AR performance as well. I'm not saying you need to spend a ton of time on this but maybe have some sort of pattern? I'll skip style critiques for the other charts as I think you get the idea. Also I know you guys mostly use Google Docs for distributing data but maybe you could try... Google Docs? You may be able to find some successful examples somewhere. It removes a lot of the color variation concern when i can just highlight lines. Also I love the inclusion of events, however it is hard to determine where the actual "line" is for them. For example Bravo released 10 days before the Expert challenge event, but it is hard to see that fact on the chart. Which leads me to my next point that you don't need to do all this personally. I just spent a ton of my time working on something based on your data. Clearly you have a community willing to foolishly waste their own time. I've logged in maybe 1 to 2 times in the past half year and I was willing to throw in time. Give us the raw data so anyone digging into the information can have an easier time. I mean the numbers are technically there. I could overlay a grid and get decent estimates pretty quickly. But why make me work for it? Plus it makes things easier with google docs. That said definitely give explanations because yes people are going to fit data to match their own conclusions rather than search for all possible conclusions. I caught myself doing that already. I'm no statistician. I am not even 100% sure if I read the data from the K/S sheet right because of those freaking blues. As for the data itself, I know ranges were normalized in Bravo so my guess is pre-Bravo Advanced weapon data is way different, but this guy would imply that a lot of action is going on in non-protoland. Even if the data is only Bravo onwards I'd be curious to have a look. I know historically many people who could run proto would not (especially in public matches). I imagine you've looked at the data yourself but I can't help feeling like the representative group for this data can only be a smaller percent of the player population (even if only compared to advanced gear use). I know in many ways giving us unfiltered data can lead to simple inaccurate statements that start angry mobs (Subdredditors do go on Reddit now and then after all) but then what's the worst that might happen? People getting into a huff over absurd stuff they don't properly understand and complaining on the forums? Oh noooooo.... P.S. Also those yellows. I'm pretty sure I saw this exact picture on the wall in the movie Psycho. My favorite post of the year "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1493	Posted - 2014.10.31 16:08:00 - [100] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My favorite post of the year Lots of people like numbers. I'm one of them, just not nearly as handy at graphs / excel. Thank you though for being willing to reduce the kick on rail rifles. I'd still like to see the metric for what range kills are happening at though because I think that's the largest issue with RR's. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4299	Posted - 2014.11.01 13:56:00 - [101] - Quote Dunno about the kick on the arr but the standard RR seemed easy to manage for me. I may be a weirdo though. Don't see the issue. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2102	Posted - 2014.11.02 08:09:00 - [102] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Dunno about the kick on the arr but the standard RR seemed easy to manage for me. I may be a weirdo though. Don't see the issue. ARR is set up for CQC but the kick is too high for hipfire. Rattati already stated it was an accident and is fixing it on the next balance hotfix. Hail Rattati. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
CUSE WarLord KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2014.11.03 08:23:00 - [103] - Quote Rail Rifle by far is the least competitive rifle by simple fact of haveing low DPS. i stopped useing the RR 4 nerfs ago. the data being picked up is from open ambush maps where spaming Rail Rifles is kind of effective. in PC where 90% of the districts are cargo hub city maps the RR has been the worst rifle in the game for a long time. just take it out the game if you don't want it to work.
killertojo42 Trevor Philips Enterprises 78	Posted - 2014.11.08 11:09:00 - [104] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Great lay down and honestly this is a dialogue I would prefer to have on coms or maybe you can come on to the Biomassed podcast with us one day. First...the stats seem quite solid, albeit difficult for me to interpret a bit. Note that I think they are factually accuate. Second...the stats don't always tell a full story and watching FOTM trends is not unlike the stock market. Numbers move based on peoples perceptions and that doesn't always mean the ground truth. It's very risky to balance game play on pure numbers without accounting for the human factor. RR and CR were heavily invested in post 1.8 due to them being a new weapon and they were over powered in comparison to the PR and SCR in particular. More people using the weapon lead to more kills which drives player perception that the weapon is OP. I remember when the venerable Duovolle AR was being labled "OP" left, right, and center (even by me once or twice) and there was only the SCR to compare it to. The proto AR of today is more powerful than the old "OP" version. I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the new amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. I think my concern is the tools being used to bring the weapon into balance simply will relegate the RR to status of the Flaylock of a few months ago. My bigger concern is that the racial lines are balanced to be equally competitive in the current play environment of Dust. There is an inherent issue when by default all tactical objectives force you to have the majority of your engagements in CQC range to secure victory and one race is a clear outlier to that design. The concept that Alena offered to you in regards to the ARR does help, however, you need to look across the racial lines in a holistic fashion I think. I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing and support your efforts on behalf of the community and I'm glad you are letting us all be a small part of the process. I find the RR works effectively as is and as usual used it to rip on red berries today because i'm bothered by the fact the BK-42 does less DPS to armor than my standard assault rifle and tested it When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4689	Posted - 2014.11.08 14:24:00 - [105] - Quote Short post: Swap the ranges on assault and breach variants. No need to screw with recoil or charge times then. Problem fixes itself. That is all. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Songs of Seraphim Murphys-Law 44	Posted - 2014.11.09 05:32:00 - [106] - Quote For Ratatti: I know this Tuesday there will be a rebalance on the Rail Rifle, I believe a hip fire kick value of 1.0 (doubled from where it was before the Balance Hotfix) and charge-up time to 0.5 seconds (which I fully support). Would the Assault Rail Rifle variant have less kick than the standard one, or will it have a different value? On a related note, the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle damage seems to be at a lowered value than when I last remembered. It used to hover a bit above 54.3(?) I believe, but now it's at 51.7. Was that intended? Raging alcoholic. I play in a pink suit because it's the fabulous thing to do.
hfderrtgvcd 1103	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:07:00 - [107] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: For Ratatti: I know this Tuesday there will be a rebalance on the Rail Rifle, I believe a hip fire kick value of 1.0 (doubled from where it was before the Balance Hotfix) and charge-up time to 0.5 seconds (which I fully support). Would the Assault Rail Rifle variant have less kick than the standard one, or will it have a different value? On a related note, the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle damage seems to be at a lowered value than when I last remembered. It used to hover a bit above 54.3(?) I believe, but now it's at 51.7. Was that intended? The kick is getting halfed, not doubled, and the charge time is going to 0.6 You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
DarthPlagueis TheWise 339	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:38:00 - [108] - Quote the problem with you assuming the Burst AR is competitive now is that you are forgetting the way the gun handles. i personally dislike it, even though the numbers are higher than the regular AR it is even more difficult in my opinion to engage at medium range. it might be OK at CQC but... theres a reason the Breach is performing better. You don't need it to be excellent at CQC because that's what your SMG or armor-based sidearm is for. Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 221	Posted - 2014.11.09 23:14:00 - [109] - Quote Maybe buff scr/ascr and burst ar instead of nerfing RR? Or Maybe reduce its range by 15m? Then other guns will be able to compete NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2090	Posted - 2014.11.13 22:22:00 - [110] - Quote Gah, that red line on the graph looks like its wiggling! Because you wanted to be something you're not.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11477	Posted - 2014.11.17 08:32:00 - [111] - Quote Thanks for the feedback everyone "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.