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Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifles and Balancing Methodology

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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9555	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:22:00 - [1] - Quote Dear data fanatics, While I am currently writing a bigger piece on data and meta, I am going to run a little test case by the forums, both to battle-test the visualizations and to get some initial feedback. I will try to explain the thinking and supporting data as clearly as possible, even though this would be more fun as a presentation in front of a live audience. Case: The Rail Rifle KPI's: Kills, Spawns and K/S Sample: Prototype Rifles in Public Contracts since May 2014 (post 1.8 through all hotfixes) Data Insights: The Rail Rifle has the highest K/S in the sample, gets the most kills and is the most used Rifle currently Main Theory: The Rail Rifle is too effective Forum Support: Yes Secondary Theory: The following Rifles are not effective enough, Assault Scrambler, Burst Assault, Tactical Assault, and Assault Rail. Forum Support: Yes 1)Supporting Data GÇô K/S Chart The White Line is the average for all Kills and Spawns of the Sample. The Black Line is the 7 day K/S of all Rifles. Those two lines establish a baseline for Rifles versus other weapons, and a baseline for individual Rifles against the Rifle average. In the chart we can see that the previous changes we have made are reflected in the data, Scrambler Rifle nerf in Delta shows the K/S quickly declining and rallying, same for the Combat Rifle, multiple Tactical Assault Rifle buffs are reflected in the K/S growth over time and the Breach AR can be consider competitive and right on the White Line. We can also see that the Spread (Highest - Lowest) is getting smaller, from 1.85-0.55 = 1.3 in May to 1.70-1.0 = 0.7, almost a 50% decrease. That tells us that players that use these Rifles are able to get comparative performances. Now notice that the White Line, the average, is not in the middle of the lines as one might expect with balance getting better. This is because there are more players killing and spawning with the Rifles above the White Line, than the Rifles below the line. This is a cause of concern and prompts the second Chart. 2)Supporting Data GÇô Kills Chart Looking at this chart, there are quite a few observations to make. The sum of the top three Rifles is more than 50%, with ten Rifle options, there should be an equal amount above and below 50%. The dominance of the Rail Rifle is the reason for this situation, actually, the 5 next Rifles are fairly well balanced with regard to Kills. Then we have the (perpetual) underperformers, the Assault Scrambler, Burst Assault, Tactical and Assault Rail. The Assault Scrambler was buffed in the balance hotfix 2013.10 along with the Assault Rail Rifle. Both had been on a downward trend for some time. It is quite possible that the Burst Assault has not been discovered as it is not a high profile weapon, anecdotally and stats wise it should be competitive so a further buff was deemed inappropriate. Since, historically, the Combat Rifle and Scrambler Rifle both broke the 2.0 K/S line, they were nerfed as a responese but the Rail Rifle was under the radar for a while, especially with the downward trend in K/S after Delta, as it was not obviously overpowered, until combined with the Kills data. It is always possible that a weapon has a lot of Kills, e.g., familiarity, prevalence in Starter Fits, time and SP to spec into another weapon, etc, while not being overpowered. ThatGÇÖs why only one KPI should never be used on its own to balance. 3)Supporting Data GÇô Performance Charts Comparing these three historically powerful Rifles gives further insights, and especially when the forums repeatedly call for GÇ£the Combat RifleGÇ¥ to be next. In fact, it has already been nerfed in Delta. Since Spawns and Kills depend on the daily activity, all these numbers have been normalized by dividing by the total daily Spawns and Kills, respectively. The Green Area are the Spawns, reduction in these indicate the lack of interest by the playerbase, maybe because of stats, handling, migration to another weapon or bad synergy between dropsuit and weapon, or something else. The Green Line is the average Spawns, when the Green Area dips above or below that line, something is likely causing that change in trends. Similarly, the White Bars are the Kills and the White Line the average Kills. Again, being above or below a historical average usually indicates behavior trend changes. Finally, the Red Line is the 7 day Kills per Spawn, and the Red Dotted Line the average K/S. 3a) Supporting Data GÇô Combat Rifle 3b) Supporting Data GÇô Scrambler Rifle 3c) Supporting Data GÇô Rail Rifle The design of the Rail Rifle is to be a highly accurate, long range weapon. Following that design, and taking into account the massive, and continuous growth in Kills, the Rail RifleGÇÖs Close Combat ability was reduced severely by increasing Kick and Charge-up Time, with no change to ADS Dispersion or Kick. We will monitor these changes and player behavior, and make sure that the Rail Rifle does not become non-viable. The optimal situation would be that Rail Rifle users migrate to lesser used Rifles. If they mass-migrate to a single rifle, we will need to take some action in the near future. Please comment and give feedback "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2943	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:26:00 - [2] - Quote A-W-E-S-O-M-E. Could you record a presentation and upload it on youtube or something? You really are CCP/Dust 514-Jesus. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3592	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:31:00 - [3] - Quote Once again CCP Rattati this is how it's done. Thank you for keeping the community in the loop and offering such a marked improvement to the transparency of the Dust 514 iterative process. o7 Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1914	Posted - 2014.10.29 07:57:00 - [4] - Quote Graphs!!!!! Love em. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1275	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:04:00 - [5] - Quote Great lay down and honestly this is a dialogue I would prefer to have on coms or maybe you can come on to the Biomassed podcast with us one day. First...the stats seem quite solid, albeit difficult for me to interpret a bit. Note that I think they are factually accuate. Second...the stats don't always tell a full story and watching FOTM trends is not unlike the stock market. Numbers move based on peoples perceptions and that doesn't always mean the ground truth. It's very risky to balance game play on pure numbers without accounting for the human factor. RR and CR were heavily invested in post 1.8 due to them being a new weapon and they were over powered in comparison to the PR and SCR in particular. More people using the weapon lead to more kills which drives player perception that the weapon is OP. I remember when the venerable Duovolle AR was being labled "OP" left, right, and center (even by me once or twice) and there was only the SCR to compare it to. The proto AR of today is more powerful than the old "OP" version. I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. I think my concern is the balance tools being used to bring the weapon into balance simply will relegate the RR to status of the Flaylock of a few months ago. My bigger concern is that the racial lines are balanced to be equally competitive in the current play environment of Dust. There is an inherent issue when by default all tactical objectives force you to have the majority of your engagements in CQC range to secure victory and one race is a clear outlier to that design. The concept that Alena offered to you in regards to the ARR does help, however, you need to look across the racial lines in a holistic fashion I think. I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing and support your efforts on behalf of the community and I'm glad you are letting us all be a small part of the process. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1542	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:39:00 - [6] - Quote I see pretty graphs... can someone summerize what the basic gist now is ? (beside that many people use rail rilfe)
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 545	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:45:00 - [7] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen, great follow up. CCP Rattati thank you for more data, I hope in the future we can pull similar statics from a web backend to do our own graphing. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 202	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:49:00 - [8] - Quote This is very nice and transparent so we can help you! The performance of the weapons are starting to blend nicely! With the chart for the combat rifles their issue looks to be range. The assault variant needs lesser range than it has. The assault combat rifles area looks to need ranges falling behind Gallente Assault rifles. The basic burst combat rifle should be the range one but it needs more time between burst to even it on workable planes with the other light arms, with the exception to a few. Example shotgun and swarm launcher. With the rail rifle I think the issue is that the laser rifle has a hard time being effective against it in terms of range and I say the same for the tactical assault rifles. Their is not quite enough in ranges here. Earlier today, I had a scenario of this on Manus Peak's ambush map. It's so very wide open it gives a great test to range. The entire other team was able to push us back from G7-8 to I7-10 because nothing but a rail rifle could pose a threat. For popularity once all weapons are balanced preference among players will be inevitable, with the majority choosing one, the other percentage using the least used out of standing out, and of course your die hard fans of a specific weapon. (Lore etc.). Hope this helps!!! *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 273	Posted - 2014.10.29 08:50:00 - [9] - Quote This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 910	Posted - 2014.10.29 09:17:00 - [10] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I have no doubt that RR needed to be addressed. My point is that there may be serious design concerns that are making the weapon difficult to balance without fully painting into a corner similar to something like the LR. I do believe that the new amount of recoil is simply too high...it far exceeds any of the other weapons in this regard now. For the RR...higher recoil means more diffculty in applying it's already lowest in class DPS at it's optimal range and that doesn't strike me as a good thing. The problem is that almost anything done to lower perceived or real CQC effectiveness will also directly impact it's ability to engage at long range as well. Also, the recoil clearly feels much to high for the ARR if that is a short / mid-range oriented weapon. From what I hear, the hipfire seems a bit too out of whack in comparison to the other rifles. -However- CCP Rattati wrote: the Rail RifleGÇÖs Close Combat ability was reduced severely by increasing Kick and Charge-up Time, with no change to ADS Dispersion or Kick. This means that it's optimal range effectiveness has -not- been affected. Outside of 30-ish meters up to its effective of 100, the ADS should almost always be used and the recoil with operations up is completely manageable. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9566	Posted - 2014.10.29 09:54:00 - [11] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 10:57:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. I think people will bend over backwards to try and justify why one shouldn't nerf something just beause they find it the most efficient way of doing things. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:00:00 - [13] - Quote Wow so laser rifle doesn't even exist to yall no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:02:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. None of ur chart's. Included data on lr why no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:06:00 - [15] - Quote laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 302	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:08:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:09:00 - [17] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:15:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: This is a bit of an eye opener and thanks for sharing. However, it still looks like a crucial element is missing, how rifles are being used in game. In my humble opinion, there is no reason for all ten rifles to be getting equal amounts of kills per spawn. Do you take into conideration for example usage and design philosophy first and see if the gun is overperforming or tweak the numbers to follow design philosphy afterwards? Using the Rail Rifle: Design to be a long range in line with caldari lore. Is there data to show that wow, the RR is getting alot of close range kills this is unusual for a longe range weapon? Or rather the RR is getting alot of kills everywhere lets nerf the CQC because its long range weapon? Before any proposal i'm sure you do need the stats to back you up. I'm curious as too what stats unrelated to kills are taken into consideration, also other factors such as ease of use, fitting costs, market purchases, damage output etc. By this reasoning its easy to see why shotguns remain untouched, a scout might one shot a medium frameor two/ three shot a heavy and get killed right afterwards by another scout, it might look just fine according to these metrics bu IMO unbalanced in terms of gameplay. It doesn't really matter though, no single rifle should be doing 50% of all Rifle kills. We could also just have nerfed damage until it was not as extremely good at all ranges, hurting the weapons primary function. yea but now the weapon FEELS bad. you shouldve nerfed the damage and increased the optimal range and decreased recoil to non existent in ads and bare minimum during hip fire. that wouldve achieved the same results and not making it viable in cqc and made it a superior long range rifle.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:21:00 - [19] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 620	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:31:00 - [20] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle the range profile isnt the same as RR. its optimal range is much higher and deals more damage at this range. its not general use because the weapon only is effective outside of short ranges and only when halfway over heated. meaning you must commit to an engagement and you cant pop in and out of cover like other weapons. general use, describes a weapon that can be used in most situations (cqc, sniping, assault, suppression) without a significant drop in effectiveness. the LR does not meet this requirement.

Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:32:00 - [21] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle the range profile isnt the same as RR. its optimal range is much higher and deals more damage at this range. its not general use because the weapon only is effective outside of short ranges and only when halfway over heated. meaning you must commit to an engagement and you cant pop in and out of cover like other weapons. general use, describes a weapon that can be used in most situations (cqc, sniping, assault, suppression) without a significant drop in effectiveness. the LR does not meet this requirement. It does not have to be preheated and it works down to 30m ..I've death touched heavies at 10 m It's really ******* hard even by my standards but I can use lr on ever map I have killed with it down to 4 m (bet ur ass that was precooked ) Precooked I'd no different than charging a scr no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:37:00 - [22] - Quote laser rifle is a suppression weapon EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
jhon hartigan Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 326	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:41:00 - [23] - Quote I m going to have a graphgasm! Great job Rattati, as always. I love your work and how you communicate with us. You see people not happy with something and you try to explain your reason, and this is so clear I think they wont be able to disagree. There is only one thing that scary me: that breach plasma rifle. In The first and the second graph, in the Last 10/15 days we can see K/S and Kills for BRAR going incredibly high. These are not only numbers, on the battlefield I see a lot of BRAR. So please Rattati check the stats of that weapon in the next days cause it may need a little(very little I think) nerf.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 303	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:00:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle Or rather every rifle is suppression lol it takes no lo get to kill with lr than any other gun ..Most often I get more kills than allot of the people I play with running lr.. Nope it's definitely made for the same purpose as rr tar ar arr scr ascr and all the other rifles ..people just trash it .. There is no reason for it ..lr is a tool for assault not suppression no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4126	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:05:00 - [25] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 621	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:35:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. perhaps a new LR variant that deals better damage without the "warm up" but damage wouldnt scale up as high as a normal LR? edit: assault LR
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2202	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:53:00 - [27] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rife isn't a general use battle rifle Da fun it isn't it has the same abilities as all the other long range rifle lr performs the same role as rr tar and cr how is it not a rifle it has rifle in its name lol i don't see why ccp doesn't track it the lr is way more deadly than scr sniper rifle has rifle in its name.... is that a general use weapon as well? What defines general use ..how is rr a general use weapon but lr not..they cover the same range profiles and both kill efficiently The term general use can't refer to popular or sniper would be general use and lr not ..but in raw killing potential the lr equals every other rifle it's range profile equates to the rr ..it's viable in ar ranges but harder to use I don't see how laser rifle us not a general use rifle So explain to me how is lr not a general use rifle Maiden, the LR is not a general use rifle in any sense of the word. It does not generally get used it has very specific engagement ranges and lets be honest its not very popular because while it is an awesome weapon to use in very specific circumstances, it falls flat on its face when someone gets close or the type of level does not permit good positioning (Say indoors or in confined complexes). @ CCP - Awesome Dev blog. Its great that there are actual stats and graphs to back this all up. I always knew RR`s were the most used thing in pubs but I didn't realise it was quite like this. Hopefully we are getting closer to achieving balance. (Will the Combat Rifle be next?) "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 546	Posted - 2014.10.29 13:20:00 - [28] - Quote Yet, the problem is that the it's a jarring game for whats suppose to be a general weapon. Not a specialty weapon, if that's the case they should think hard about switching the ARR for the RR. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 311	Posted - 2014.10.29 13:49:00 - [29] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifle is a suppression weapon Laser rifle is a killing rifle Saying it's not a general rifle because it's unique It's not suppression it's a killing tool just like every other rifle There seems to be a massive misunderstanding about what a suppression weapon is. There is no universe where a suppression weapon is not a killing weapon, or ineffective at doing so. The modern machinegun is amazingly tooled and optimized for killing. It is a suppression weapon. Suppression weapons are weapons designed to vomit out a continuous trail of death that presents an enemy with only two options: Hide or Die. Binary choice, no exceptions unless the suppression weapon operator is doing it wrong. Laser rifle outranges most weapons in the game and at long range is amazingly effective at getting across this message. If you don't dive for cover I'm melting your face off faster than the gumby with the assault rifle 20 yards away. Suppression weapons combine two traits: 1: range, because if the enemy is close he can overrun you. keep him at range. 2: Obnoxious killing power if you stand in the way. perhaps a new LR variant that deals better damage without the "warm up" but damage wouldnt scale up as high as a normal LR? edit: assault LR Lol that would be cruel no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 74	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:06:00 - [30] - Quote thanks mr ratatti



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