Shared scans would be a logi only thing
Scout bonuses would only effect the mods not the suit
Caldari get precision bonus and loose dampening bonus
Gallente loose precision bonus
All scouts but the Amarr loose recent stamina buffs
Amarr looses precision bonus and gains range amplifier bonus
Matar scout stays unchanged
Gallente scout can only be undetectable with 4 damps in the lows(cloak not needed)
Adjust everything to above statement
Pyramid leveling of ewar from light to medium to heavy with a 10m difference for range with logi being closer to scouts ewar and commando being closer to an assaults.

Some of those things I like, others not so much.

I still feel that removing passive scans all together would be a lot better for the health of the game.

what if, only logi passives where shared out and scouts had no passive scans while cloaked.

Liiiike?

Well TLDR - everyone will still flock to scouts. I appreciate you are trying to make things a little more fair but as long as passive scans are in the game I dont see how we can reverse the mass scout problem.

I mean is it passives that make the scout so appealing? (Obviously the cloak is also a huge factor) Your proposals would not stop scouts from being the go to all around jack of all trades suits.

It's not being seen that makes them desirable, and with my proposals it would require a gallente scout to fill up all his/her lows with damps to not be detected by anything which makes them paper thin. And the idea of logistics only passives helps fully define their support role so in the end you have a big majority of scannable scouts (big ol buff for scanners buut I suggest an ever longer cool down..
Maybe) that are either tank-ish or paper thin tissues that brake at the breeze of the wind.

Let's not forget that changes done to scouts, should be in correlation with the other frames' as well.

For example, changing the scout bonuses to module efficiency should require an assault to use a module to make use of their modules (assuming they have any available, which they don't).

Removing passive scans totally removes the "scout" out of the role, as much as shared passive scans do.

This said, instead of having two bonuses (i.e. range and dampening) all scouts should have only one (except the Minmatar because hacking and knifing isn't as useful as a about as EWAR). In other words, I agree with Nocturnal Soul's view on this. Caldari Precision, Gallente Dampening, Amarr Range, and Minmatar Hack and Slash (see what I did there?).

Larger frame scan radius buff from 10 to 15 would be nice (15 to 20m for Logistics) with Logistics getting 3 points in precision less (between scout and assault) and the Commandos getting the precision between assaults and sentinels, another great suggestion from Soul. Giving Commandos a slight speed buff would be great, too, but this is a scout thread.

Removing scans from the game would basically remove the need and actual usability of scouts since they would try to mimic assaults and have less armor anyways. One could say, "B- but, Joel! Scouts have their fast speed H4X!" The Minmatar Assault is also fast, and is able to tank much better than a scout. Also, they get a bonus to the CR - the favored weapon of tanked scouts.

In other words, removing scans from the game is a big NO, as there are better solutions to the scout role. Will it stop scouts from wearing plates and extenders? Probably not, but no one ever talks about a sentinel stacking all dampeners, either so the double standard kind of kicks in and invalidates all reasoning behind these type of threads.




TL;DR Removing scans is no. Properly trying to balance scouts is yes.
Caldari - Precision
Gallente - Dampening
Minmatar - Hack and Slash
Amarr - Range

I've been running the Gallente scout since the chromosome build so don't think that I am some ignorant heavy or something here.

Lets be honest, it looks as if around 50% of the suits bought on a daily basis are scouts - this correlates to what most people see and complain about in game.

I tell you with little doubt in my mind, passive scans are the main factor in this equation. Maybe we should totally remove passive scans.

I do realise this would mean scout bonuses would have to be looked at but as it stands having the ability to see everything through permanent scans and the ability to use the cloak (an assault cloak as the Judge would say) must be why everyone is choosing the scout for what ever role they desire.

So what are your thoughts on totally removing the passive scans from the game? (Does anyone have better ideas?)

I agree with both, yet we are not able to for 1.9.

you don't really even have to guess that scouts are 50% of the daily buy, the market data is released by CCP so it can be tracked.

http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

Around 49.8% of the most commonly purchased dropsuits are scouts of some sort.

Ha nice post man, I like the hack and slash bit.

I disagree that scans is all a scout is good for. Scouting should be something verbal or at least something that has to be done ingame (spotting enemy locations if not verbally communicated on comms - then through waypoints in game like a squad leader can do for instance.)
Scouting is about seeing what the enemy has and where is its location. Its about thinking about what you are doing, where you are going. Getting 'eyes on' the enemy. Not letting computers do all of the work for you. I guess I am bias about this.

I also am not a fan of your scenario with a heavy stacking damps. A dampend stacked heavy is still scanable. I mean are we talking a Caldari heavy with its one lowslot? Even a proto Amarr heavy with 4x Proto dampeners still only gets 25.26 dB. Most assault fit scouts passives will see that, let alone scanners or focused passive scan scout fits.

Dampening a heavy suit is almost pointless. Where as stacking tank on a scout is not.

Haven't really thought about verbal communication being part of the role. Glad you brought that up. If scouting would only be effective via Voice Communication, then you're basically shifting the scouts to the "fast knife guys that are weak" type of play for those who don't have mics. You'd be limiting a large portion of the playerbase to frames and specializations outside of the scout in terms of usefulness.

As for your comment on the bias towards the tanked scout vs damped heavy, I'll have you know I told my heavy friend to stealth tank and he got by no problem. The only one who saw him were scouts (like you said) and almost no one carries scanners anymore so that wasn't a problem, either. On the other hand, when I've tried tanking my scout, I've underperformed. Probably because I wasn't used to it, so the outcomes of both our situations seemed staged (you know, too try to prove my point). Heavy was in a Sentinel Ak.0, so he had 4 ADV dampeners.

Either way, though, I still see it as a double standard, and unless I see enough proof instead of anecdotes (including my own), I won't be changing my view on it.

Anyways, as another scout balancing post, I also want CPU/PG nerfed on them, along with the removal of an equipment slot. Before the cloak was introduced, I figured it was necessary, but now... eh, not so much. It's a gimmick.

So what are your thoughts on totally removing the passive scans from the game? (Does anyone have better ideas?)

I like you, you have good ideas and actually give me a lot to think about in all honestly.

I suppose everything is very subject to what is going on in a particular battle. For sure some battles there are medium suits galore, others tons of heavys and not much in the way of scouts or logis with scanner etc...

I am always trying to think of the bigger generalist picture.

I was actually a little surprised that a dampened Amarr heavy could actually beat some passives and almost all scanners (actually beats even proto scanners except the focused! )

I don't think passive scans themselves are the problem, I think their strength is a problem. A big one.

Without any module assistance, they are already many times more powerful that the scanning that active scanners provided prior to their nerf. With modules, they can be hundreds of times more effective than them. You read that right.

Remember, Active Scannners were considered to be very overpowered by a majority of the player base prior to their meganerf. But somehow, passive scans that are many times more powerful are less of a problem?

I think not.

Passive scans need to be hit pretty ******* hard with the Nerf sledge if you ask me, at least as long as Active Scanners are considered to be balanced...
-Module Bonuses for Scouts, no more suit bonuses for Ewar. No more relying on base scans to do the work while HP modules are used to make slay suits.
-Less base Scanning for Scouts, still the best at it at base level, but not by much. They will need to use modules to actually make any use of their scans. Their slots should be dominated by range extenders and presicion enhancers if they want good scans. At most, Passive scans should reach 40m, and should never dip below 24Db precision, on any scout suit. This may require scan module nerfs.
-No more shared passive scans, at least not all the time. This needs to be the defining difference between Active and Passive Scans.
Actives will share with the entire squad, regardless of their distance from the scanner.
Passive scans will only share info with the squad if the squad member is within the scan range of the scan. A passive scan that has a range of 30m will only share that info with the squad if the members are within 30m from the user.

I've been running the Gallente scout since the chromosome build so don't think that I am some ignorant heavy or something here.

Lets be honest, it looks as if around 50% of the suits bought on a daily basis are scouts - this correlates to what most people see and complain about in game.

I tell you with little doubt in my mind, passive scans are the main factor in this equation. Maybe we should totally remove passive scans.

I do realise this would mean scout bonuses would have to be looked at but as it stands having the ability to see everything through permanent scans and the ability to use the cloak (an assault cloak as the Judge would say) must be why everyone is choosing the scout for what ever role they desire.

So what are your thoughts on totally removing the passive scans from the game? (Does anyone have better ideas?)

Some of those things I like, others not so much.

I still feel that removing passive scans all together would be a lot better for the health of the game.

Shared scans would be a logi only thing
Scout bonuses would only effect the mods not the suit
Caldari get precision bonus and loose dampening bonus
Gallente loose precision bonus
All scouts but the Amarr loose recent stamina buffs
Amarr looses precision bonus and gains range amplifier bonus
Matar scout stays unchanged
Gallente scout can only be undetectable with 4 damps in the lows(cloak not needed)
Adjust everything to above statement
Pyramid leveling of ewar from light to medium to heavy with a 10m difference for range with logi being closer to scouts ewar and commando being closer to an assaults.

I've been running the Gallente scout since the chromosome build so don't think that I am some ignorant heavy or something here.

Lets be honest, it looks as if around 50% of the suits bought on a daily basis are scouts - this correlates to what most people see and complain about in game.

I tell you with little doubt in my mind, passive scans are the main factor in this equation. Maybe we should totally remove passive scans.

I do realise this would mean scout bonuses would have to be looked at but as it stands having the ability to see everything through permanent scans and the ability to use the cloak (an assault cloak as the Judge would say) must be why everyone is choosing the scout for what ever role they desire.

So what are your thoughts on totally removing the passive scans from the game? (Does anyone have better ideas?)

Shared scans would be a logi only thing
Scout bonuses would only effect the mods not the suit
Caldari get precision bonus and loose dampening bonus
Gallente loose precision bonus
All scouts but the Amarr loose recent stamina buffs
Amarr looses precision bonus and gains range amplifier bonus
Matar scout stays unchanged
Gallente scout can only be undetectable with 4 damps in the lows(cloak not needed)
Adjust everything to above statement
Pyramid leveling of ewar from light to medium to heavy with a 10m difference for range with logi being closer to scouts ewar and commando being closer to an assaults.