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Scouts - lets be honest about them.

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jade gamester Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 4	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:45:00 - [31] - Quote I'm a dedicated sentinel, it's what I can run as. I have alts all speced into different suits. I ran the scouts in my view the most balanced scout is the min followed by the amar. The gal and cal are ridiculous in my view, cal scouts massacre heavies the reason is heavies have an armour based weapon. I ran a gal scout with an assault rifle and cal scouts die quite easy, so maybe an issue with cal scouts is the lack of shield weapon users however... Who needs to run a cal/gal assault? Look at what the scouts has to offer the options are endless only thing they can't do is run with a hmg. The galentee scout, my favourite scout suit but thatshould due to one factor, invisibility you don't have to sacrifice anything to become invisible? I'm a strong believer in sacrifice. If you armour stack an amar sentinel he is very very slow but you get the bonus, the gal scout is dampening so surely they should sacrifice most lows? I dunno I mean seem biased however I have used all the suits in the game I share views on all suits I just believe scouts have taken lead, due to fotm chasers leaving there heavies. Please correct me for grammar or if I'm wrong :)
Luna McDuffing COALICION LATINA Top Men. 63	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:15:00 - [32] - Quote I can understand the frustration with the passive scan but, I have a small disagreement with removing them because well, these people have mastered space travel, cloning, laser weapons, nano technology etc etc. I think sharing a wifi connection (or whatever they call it in the eve universe) I would think that wouldn't be too hard to do at least for them. Maybe the solution is to remove one of the equipment slots so you either have to use the cloack or remote explosives but not both. Maybe the bonuses should transfer to the modules. It is really hard to say what the best solution is because how do you change something that doesn't screw half your player base. If you say that the scout invisibility duration is lower ok, is a nerf but, at least you can still be invisible. However, if you say cloaks no longer exists then that is kind of game breaking. Without a respect that is. This would be equivalent to taking away that secondary weapon on the Ammar logi. If the reason you bought it was because of the secondary then it is unfair to say you no longer have it. It is also unrealistic. War is not fair and things don't just disappears. What happens in real life is that better things come along. The flintlock rifle was replaced by the single shot which was replaced by a magazine fed rifle which was replaced by a semi auto or full auto rifle. Nobody uses flintlock because what we have today is better. To keep things more realistic then instead of nerfing one thing why not improve the others. If your enemy builds an airplane then you build a better one or you build an surface to air to take it down. That kind of thing.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1290	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:36:00 - [33] - Quote Why not just do what some have suggested ( other threads ) and that's , just tie the bonus to actual mod usage and not the suit . The mod one uses would apply / increase the bonus while used instead of an overall flat out bonus to the suit . This encourages investment in a role and mod usage to have the required effect . Basic mods give the basic bonus while prototype mods give more of a bonus , also ... prototype modular usage with a prototype suit would give the max bonus allowed . Tie this in with a noticeable cloak to fire delay and not .33 seconds , it should be at least 1 second but prob 2 ... would end all of this debate . .33 is not noticeable and there should be a more of a change over from decloaking to firing or using a weapon or laying an RE . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1291	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:52:00 - [34] - Quote no do not remove passive scan. introduce a new module that must be fit in order to recieve the passive scan intel. maybe a module the scout also needs to fit to transmit the intel. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
syzygiet G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 19	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:00:00 - [35] - Quote remove the passive range, precision, profile bonus and change them to % increase/decrease efficacy in corresponding modules? So you want to be super damped, slap on some dampeners at the cost of hp want to scan to the sun, slap on some range amps at the cost of hp you get where i am going with this? it doesnt solve the wall hack, but i do think they should get rid of the shared passives and get rid of the directional info to balance things a bit.
Boot Booter Second-Nature 988	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:10:00 - [36] - Quote TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: no do not remove passive scan. introduce a new module that must be fit in order to recieve the passive scan intel. maybe a module the scout also needs to fit to transmit the intel. Make it an equipment? Interesting idea. Probably won't happen in 1.9. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4936	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:13:00 - [37] - Quote I like the idea of the removal of shared passive scans. Why should heavies get to make no sacrifice and pick up undampened scouts and medium frames while still lugging around death machines and massive HP? The point of modules and fittings is to make a sacrifice for what you get out of them. Shared passives negate that. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4936	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:13:00 - [38] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: no do not remove passive scan. introduce a new module that must be fit in order to recieve the passive scan intel. maybe a module the scout also needs to fit to transmit the intel. Make it an equipment? Interesting idea. Probably won't happen in 1.9. If only they made an active scanner that could share information with a squad... You can always tell a Millford Minja
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1291	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:14:00 - [39] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: no do not remove passive scan. introduce a new module that must be fit in order to recieve the passive scan intel. maybe a module the scout also needs to fit to transmit the intel. Make it an equipment? Interesting idea. Probably won't happen in 1.9. it could be any slot, H, L, or E.. i think highslot makes the most sense to me since it's an electronic mod and by making it that then you have to decide if it's worth it to take an EHP hit to share your scans.. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5099	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:23:00 - [40] - Quote The biggest problem with shared scans and the predominance of scout suits on the battlefield is that the only people not being scanned are the ones usually providing the scans. To me if you remove shared scans the scouts only become stronger. When you see the group of enemy players it's somewhat easy to predict where the dampened scout will be operating. They will be swinging around one of the flanks in most cases. Removing the shared scans will force more players to use a scout suit to give themselves a better view of the battlefield and in the case of the Gal Scout to avoid detection altogether. To be honest it amazes me that 90% of the players aren't using the Gal Scout. They MUST change the bonuses. You can take a BPO Gal Scout (with max scanning skills and Gal Scout L5) and avoid detection completely (2 complex damps and an advanced cloak). I wish my avatar was Minmatar.

Boot Booter Second-Nature 988	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:37:00 - [41] - Quote I think the best solution is a complete rework of eWar which only puts indicators on your minimap and not the hud. This removes the wallhack aspect. Active Scanners should retain this function. That said, this and many other solutions presented here are probably not possible for 1.9. I think we should focus on viable 1.9 options for a scout nerf. With this in mind I think it's unwise to mess with bonuses and modules because undoubtedly there will be some unforseen consequence that makes a new stronger FOTM. We've seen this happen over and over throughout dust history. Viable options for 1.9 remain as directly nerfing scout base stats IMO. Again, it's probably not the best solution, but it can be done equally across all races and is more easily balanced. If you are still with me, what are some of the options? I've noticed that I like playing against scouts with very little hp. They can still get the jump on me for a quick assassination but they can't run straight into enemy fire like the assault scouts can. With this in mind I will focus on options that reduces the incentive to use hp mods on scouts. Reducing base regen. This forces scouts to chose between hp and high regen like every other suit in the game. As it stands now, the Ammar scout has slightly higher base shield regen capabilities than the Caldari assault. Why should a scout in its intended role need high base regen? If they are scouting properly they shouldn't be shot. I could rant on about this forever but basically high base regen functions the same as high base eWar = stack hp because base stats are fine without modules. Reducing base regen a bit will cut down on the assault scout. Reducing base eWar. Same as regen let's force the scout to chose between hp and eWar. They should still be the best eWar suit but they shouldn't have the luxury of using base stats to achieve this to the effect they currently do. Somebody else stated to change the bonus to a module affect. This follows the same logic as that but with a different approach. Essentially close the base ewar gap between scouts and medium frames a bit. Tldr Reduce base regen and ewar stats on scout suits so that hp modules are more of a burden than they currently are. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Aria Gomes Wirykomi Wolf Pack 621	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:44:00 - [42] - Quote I wish the eWar bonuses were module based instead of suit, but that might also hinder us Min Scouts that would have to run dmg mods for our knives. Some of us already use codebreakers, some just prefer speed tanking above all. On my Min Scout, I sacrifice my survivability to put on two complex precision enhancers and a kin kat(or two) with a damp or codebreaker,sometimes regulator. With those suits I can only have 1 complex shield extender, 2 sidearms and compact nanohive. My other modules are complex. (On an ADV Min Scout PG is filled up at 56 afterwards)
Dreis Shadowweaver Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 439	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:46:00 - [43] - Quote I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel I've only ever known 1.8... Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5100	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:47:00 - [44] - Quote Perhaps removing automatic shared scans is the answer along with giving the ability for medium frames to detect even the most dampened scout with two precision enhancers (their range would still allow for scouts to move freely in almost all cases). Adding a module that allows for passive scans to be shared to squad mates and adding a module that allows for the reception of passive scans. If you applied all these things along with tying the scout bonuses to modules instead of the suits I think you'd find the most balance we've had since the significant buff to scouts. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Aria Gomes Wirykomi Wolf Pack 623	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:51:00 - [45] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. :P Sounds like what I do right now. (The sidearms part)
Maur'ce Brutar Merry and Hell 24	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:53:00 - [46] - Quote I support the ability to remove passive scans if Minmatar get the ability to scale buildings with Nova Knives GûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûê GûêGûäGûêGûêGûäGûê GûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûê Merry GûêGûêGûêGö+GûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûÉGûêGûêGûêGûêGûî GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGö+GûêGûêGûê And GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûÉGûêGûêGûêGûêGûî GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê Hell
Dreis Shadowweaver Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 440	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:55:00 - [47] - Quote Maur'ce Brutar wrote: I support the ability to remove passive scans if Minmatar get the ability to scale buildings with Nova Knives OMG SO MUCH THIS ^ Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel I've only ever known 1.8... Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5101	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:57:00 - [48] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. I've always hated the idea of gimping the offensive capabilities of logis so I couldn't get behind the removal of the light weapon slot for scouts. The shotgun would effectively be gone from the game. Like others have said, it's just too easy to dominate with a bunch of scouts. Whatever the remedy is, it WILL **** off dedicated scouts. But as more and more players skill into them it's just killing any sort of variety on the battlefield. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Dreis Shadowweaver Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 440	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:59:00 - [49] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. I've always hated the idea of gimping the offensive capabilities of logis so I couldn't get behind the removal of the light weapon slot for scouts. The shotgun would effectively be gone from the game. Like others have said, it's just too easy to dominate with a bunch of scouts. Whatever the remedy is, it WILL **** off dedicated scouts. But as more and more players skill into them it's just killing any sort of variety on the battlefield. What would you propose then? Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel I've only ever known 1.8... Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5101	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:01:00 - [50] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. I've always hated the idea of gimping the offensive capabilities of logis so I couldn't get behind the removal of the light weapon slot for scouts. The shotgun would effectively be gone from the game. Like others have said, it's just too easy to dominate with a bunch of scouts. Whatever the remedy is, it WILL **** off dedicated scouts. But as more and more players skill into them it's just killing any sort of variety on the battlefield. What would you propose then? It's in a post above yours, but.... Perhaps removing automatic shared scans is the answer along with giving the ability for medium frames to detect even the most dampened scout with two precision enhancers (their range would still allow for scouts to move freely in almost all cases). Adding a module that allows for passive scans to be shared to squad mates and adding a module that allows for the reception of passive scans. If you applied all these things along with tying the scout bonuses to modules instead of the suits I think you'd find the most balance we've had since the significant buff to scouts. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.

Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1733	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:09:00 - [51] - Quote Tanked scouts are the problem. Make regular plates increase db. Fixed Delt for CPM2 CPM1 MISSION : FAILED Moss-delt on skype
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 133	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:13:00 - [52] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Shared scans would be a logi only thing Scout bonuses would only effect the mods not the suit Caldari get precision bonus and loose dampening bonus Gallente loose precision bonus All scouts but the Amarr loose recent stamina buffs Amarr looses precision bonus and gains range amplifier bonus Matar scout stays unchanged Gallente scout can only be undetectable with 4 damps in the lows(cloak not needed) Adjust everything to above statement Pyramid leveling of ewar from light to medium to heavy with a 10m difference for range with logi being closer to scouts ewar and commando being closer to an assaults. scout here and i agree with all of this this is the best more thought out ways ive seen.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 626	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:16:00 - [53] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Tanked scouts are the problem. Make regular plates increase db. Fixed Shield Extenders should increase Db. Armor Plates should lower scan presicion or decrease scan range. Swag-suit4lyfe!
Horizon Limit Nexus Balusa Horizon 80	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:17:00 - [54] - Quote Passive scan removal will just not happen, even if it would be better for the game. Cal scout vs Cal scout
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 133	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:17:00 - [55] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. I've always hated the idea of gimping the offensive capabilities of logis so I couldn't get behind the removal of the light weapon slot for scouts. The shotgun would effectively be gone from the game. Like others have said, it's just too easy to dominate with a bunch of scouts. Whatever the remedy is, it WILL **** off dedicated scouts. But as more and more players skill into them it's just killing any sort of variety on the battlefield. i can confirm that removing the light weap slot would ruin thors playstyle so protecting it aith false facts that it would make it harder to kill with a scout is invalid. Try running dual sidearms all day for 1 day and tell me that its imposaible to kill people with sidearms.
Horizon Limit Nexus Balusa Horizon 80	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:19:00 - [56] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Tanked scouts are the problem. Make regular plates increase db. Fixed Shield Extenders should increase Db. Armor Plates should lower scan presicion or decrease scan range. There is no reason why a piece of scrap metal should interfere with scan, shield is different, due to its elettromagnetic nature. Cal scout vs Cal scout
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:30:00 - [57] - Quote Horizon Limit wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Tanked scouts are the problem. Make regular plates increase db. Fixed Shield Extenders should increase Db. Armor Plates should lower scan presicion or decrease scan range. There is no reason why a piece of scrap metal should interfere with scan, shield is different, due to its elettromagnetic nature. It makes enough sense to say that armor plates interfere with passive scans because scans have a harder time penetrating the armor on dropsuits, and it makes more sense for it to work this way for balance reasons. It also makes an insane amount of sense to say that insanely strong electromagnetic fields would light up on any scanners more than it would hinder them... Balance>realism anyway, so shut it. Swag-suit4lyfe!
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1734	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:36:00 - [58] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Horizon Limit wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Tanked scouts are the problem. Make regular plates increase db. Fixed Shield Extenders should increase Db. Armor Plates should lower scan presicion or decrease scan range. There is no reason why a piece of scrap metal should interfere with scan, shield is different, due to its elettromagnetic nature. It makes enough sense to say that armor plates interfere with passive scans because scans have a harder time penetrating the armor on dropsuits, and it makes more sense for it to work this way for balance reasons. Balance>realism anyway, so shut it. Other way around makes more sense Plates raise db Shields lower scan range Delt for CPM2 CPM1 MISSION : FAILED Moss-delt on skype
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5101	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:36:00 - [59] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: I don't like the idea of removing shared or passive scans, as that is what the Scout is supposed to be about. I also don't like the idea of removing the second equipment slot, as being able to use the cloak to sneak behind enemy lines and drop an Uplink or two seems like the epitomy of Scoutliness to me. My proposal is to remove the Scout's Light Weapon slot and replace it with a second Sidearm slot. I've always hated the idea of gimping the offensive capabilities of logis so I couldn't get behind the removal of the light weapon slot for scouts. The shotgun would effectively be gone from the game. Like others have said, it's just too easy to dominate with a bunch of scouts. Whatever the remedy is, it WILL **** off dedicated scouts. But as more and more players skill into them it's just killing any sort of variety on the battlefield. i can confirm that removing the light weap slot would ruin thors playstyle so protecting it aith false facts that it would make it harder to kill with a scout is invalid. Try running dual sidearms all day for 1 day and tell me that its imposaible to kill people with sidearms. I have the gal scout and it makes me feel like a dirty wh0re when I use it. You are barking up the wrong tree. I just don't think limited scouts to sidearms would be the right approach. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5101	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:43:00 - [60] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Shared scans would be a logi only thing Scout bonuses would only effect the mods not the suit Caldari get precision bonus and loose dampening bonus Gallente loose precision bonus All scouts but the Amarr loose recent stamina buffs Amarr looses precision bonus and gains range amplifier bonus Matar scout stays unchanged Gallente scout can only be undetectable with 4 damps in the lows(cloak not needed) Adjust everything to above statement Pyramid leveling of ewar from light to medium to heavy with a 10m difference for range with logi being closer to scouts ewar and commando being closer to an assaults. scout here and i agree with all of this this is the best more thought out ways ive seen. Those things all sound good, but I feel it's the wrong approach. By simply changing the suit bonuses there are still going to be issues. I think EWAR and shared scans are great, but there should be a sacrifice. If you made the broadcast/receive modules an equipment slot it would significantly boost the effectiveness of logis because your scouts (assuming they also fit a cloak), assaults, and commandos would not have any equipment if they are choosing to have shared scans. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.



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