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Joel II X
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3970
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Posted - 2014.10.22 06:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's not forget that changes done to scouts, should be in correlation with the other frames' as well.
For example, changing the scout bonuses to module efficiency should require an assault to use a module to make use of their modules (assuming they have any available, which they don't).
Removing passive scans totally removes the "scout" out of the role, as much as shared passive scans do.
This said, instead of having two bonuses (i.e. range and dampening) all scouts should have only one (except the Minmatar because hacking and knifing isn't as useful as a about as EWAR). In other words, I agree with Nocturnal Soul's view on this. Caldari Precision, Gallente Dampening, Amarr Range, and Minmatar Hack and Slash (see what I did there?).
Larger frame scan radius buff from 10 to 15 would be nice (15 to 20m for Logistics) with Logistics getting 3 points in precision less (between scout and assault) and the Commandos getting the precision between assaults and sentinels, another great suggestion from Soul. Giving Commandos a slight speed buff would be great, too, but this is a scout thread.
Removing scans from the game would basically remove the need and actual usability of scouts since they would try to mimic assaults and have less armor anyways. One could say, "B- but, Joel! Scouts have their fast speed H4X!" The Minmatar Assault is also fast, and is able to tank much better than a scout. Also, they get a bonus to the CR - the favored weapon of tanked scouts.
In other words, removing scans from the game is a big NO, as there are better solutions to the scout role. Will it stop scouts from wearing plates and extenders? Probably not, but no one ever talks about a sentinel stacking all dampeners, either so the double standard kind of kicks in and invalidates all reasoning behind these type of threads.
TL;DR Removing scans is no. Properly trying to balance scouts is yes. Caldari - Precision Gallente - Dampening Minmatar - Hack and Slash Amarr - Range |
Joel II X
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3972
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 07:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Joel II X wrote:Let's not forget that changes done to scouts, should be in correlation with the other frames' as well.
For example, changing the scout bonuses to module efficiency should require an assault to use a module to make use of their modules (assuming they have any available, which they don't).
Removing passive scans totally removes the "scout" out of the role, as much as shared passive scans do.
This said, instead of having two bonuses (i.e. range and dampening) all scouts should have only one (except the Minmatar because hacking and knifing isn't as useful as a about as EWAR). In other words, I agree with Nocturnal Soul's view on this. Caldari Precision, Gallente Dampening, Amarr Range, and Minmatar Hack and Slash (see what I did there?).
Larger frame scan radius buff from 10 to 15 would be nice (15 to 20m for Logistics) with Logistics getting 3 points in precision less (between scout and assault) and the Commandos getting the precision between assaults and sentinels, another great suggestion from Soul. Giving Commandos a slight speed buff would be great, too, but this is a scout thread.
Removing scans from the game would basically remove the need and actual usability of scouts since they would try to mimic assaults and have less armor anyways. One could say, "B- but, Joel! Scouts have their fast speed H4X!" The Minmatar Assault is also fast, and is able to tank much better than a scout. Also, they get a bonus to the CR - the favored weapon of tanked scouts.
In other words, removing scans from the game is a big NO, as there are better solutions to the scout role. Will it stop scouts from wearing plates and extenders? Probably not, but no one ever talks about a sentinel stacking all dampeners, either so the double standard kind of kicks in and invalidates all reasoning behind these type of threads.
TL;DR Removing scans is no. Properly trying to balance scouts is yes. Caldari - Precision Gallente - Dampening Minmatar - Hack and Slash Amarr - Range Ha nice post man, I like the hack and slash bit. I disagree that scans is all a scout is good for. Scouting should be something verbal or at least something that has to be done ingame (spotting enemy locations if not verbally communicated on comms - then through waypoints in game like a squad leader can do for instance.) Scouting is about seeing what the enemy has and where is its location. Its about thinking about what you are doing, where you are going. Getting 'eyes on' the enemy. Not letting computers do all of the work for you. I guess I am bias about this. I also am not a fan of your scenario with a heavy stacking damps. A dampend stacked heavy is still scanable. I mean are we talking a Caldari heavy with its one lowslot? Even a proto Amarr heavy with 4x Proto dampeners still only gets 25.26 dB. Most assault fit scouts passives will see that, let alone scanners or focused passive scan scout fits. Dampening a heavy suit is almost pointless. Where as stacking tank on a scout is not. Haven't really thought about verbal communication being part of the role. Glad you brought that up. If scouting would only be effective via Voice Communication, then you're basically shifting the scouts to the "fast knife guys that are weak" type of play for those who don't have mics. You'd be limiting a large portion of the playerbase to frames and specializations outside of the scout in terms of usefulness.
As for your comment on the bias towards the tanked scout vs damped heavy, I'll have you know I told my heavy friend to stealth tank and he got by no problem. The only one who saw him were scouts (like you said) and almost no one carries scanners anymore so that wasn't a problem, either. On the other hand, when I've tried tanking my scout, I've underperformed. Probably because I wasn't used to it, so the outcomes of both our situations seemed staged (you know, too try to prove my point). Heavy was in a Sentinel Ak.0, so he had 4 ADV dampeners.
Either way, though, I still see it as a double standard, and unless I see enough proof instead of anecdotes (including my own), I won't be changing my view on it.
Anyways, as another scout balancing post, I also want CPU/PG nerfed on them, along with the removal of an equipment slot. Before the cloak was introduced, I figured it was necessary, but now... eh, not so much. It's a gimmick. |
Joel II X
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3972
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 07:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Joel II X wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Joel II X wrote:Let's not forget that changes done to scouts, should be in correlation with the other frames' as well.
For example, changing the scout bonuses to module efficiency should require an assault to use a module to make use of their modules (assuming they have any available, which they don't).
Removing passive scans totally removes the "scout" out of the role, as much as shared passive scans do.
This said, instead of having two bonuses (i.e. range and dampening) all scouts should have only one (except the Minmatar because hacking and knifing isn't as useful as a about as EWAR). In other words, I agree with Nocturnal Soul's view on this. Caldari Precision, Gallente Dampening, Amarr Range, and Minmatar Hack and Slash (see what I did there?).
Larger frame scan radius buff from 10 to 15 would be nice (15 to 20m for Logistics) with Logistics getting 3 points in precision less (between scout and assault) and the Commandos getting the precision between assaults and sentinels, another great suggestion from Soul. Giving Commandos a slight speed buff would be great, too, but this is a scout thread.
Removing scans from the game would basically remove the need and actual usability of scouts since they would try to mimic assaults and have less armor anyways. One could say, "B- but, Joel! Scouts have their fast speed H4X!" The Minmatar Assault is also fast, and is able to tank much better than a scout. Also, they get a bonus to the CR - the favored weapon of tanked scouts.
In other words, removing scans from the game is a big NO, as there are better solutions to the scout role. Will it stop scouts from wearing plates and extenders? Probably not, but no one ever talks about a sentinel stacking all dampeners, either so the double standard kind of kicks in and invalidates all reasoning behind these type of threads.
TL;DR Removing scans is no. Properly trying to balance scouts is yes. Caldari - Precision Gallente - Dampening Minmatar - Hack and Slash Amarr - Range Ha nice post man, I like the hack and slash bit. I disagree that scans is all a scout is good for. Scouting should be something verbal or at least something that has to be done ingame (spotting enemy locations if not verbally communicated on comms - then through waypoints in game like a squad leader can do for instance.) Scouting is about seeing what the enemy has and where is its location. Its about thinking about what you are doing, where you are going. Getting 'eyes on' the enemy. Not letting computers do all of the work for you. I guess I am bias about this. I also am not a fan of your scenario with a heavy stacking damps. A dampend stacked heavy is still scanable. I mean are we talking a Caldari heavy with its one lowslot? Even a proto Amarr heavy with 4x Proto dampeners still only gets 25.26 dB. Most assault fit scouts passives will see that, let alone scanners or focused passive scan scout fits. Dampening a heavy suit is almost pointless. Where as stacking tank on a scout is not. Haven't really thought about verbal communication being part of the role. Glad you brought that up. If scouting would only be effective via Voice Communication, then you're basically shifting the scouts to the "fast knife guys that are weak" type of play for those who don't have mics. You'd be limiting a large portion of the playerbase to frames and specializations outside of the scout in terms of usefulness. As for your comment on the bias towards the tanked scout vs damped heavy, I'll have you know I told my heavy friend to stealth tank and he got by no problem. The only one who saw him were scouts (like you said) and almost no one carries scanners anymore so that wasn't a problem, either. On the other hand, when I've tried tanking my scout, I've underperformed. Probably because I wasn't used to it, so the outcomes of both our situations seemed staged (you know, too try to prove my point). Heavy was in a Sentinel Ak.0, so he had 4 ADV dampeners. Either way, though, I still see it as a double standard, and unless I see enough proof instead of anecdotes (including my own), I won't be changing my view on it. Anyways, as another scout balancing post, I also want CPU/PG nerfed on them, along with the removal of an equipment slot. Before the cloak was introduced, I figured it was necessary, but now... eh, not so much. It's a gimmick. I like you, you have good ideas and actually give me a lot to think about in all honestly. I suppose everything is very subject to what is going on in a particular battle. For sure some battles there are medium suits galore, others tons of heavys and not much in the way of scouts or logis with scanner etc... I am always trying to think of the bigger generalist picture. I was actually a little surprised that a dampened Amarr heavy could actually beat some passives and almost all scanners (actually beats even proto scanners except the focused! ) Does it? Haha, nice!
When balancing stuff, I try to view changes from every angle and whether it'll be fair to one party, but not the other. These threads are good, but then there's that one guy asking for a nerf and not listening to reason while being rude. I don't mind being wrong, but I mind manners.
Thanks for the compliment, though. Here: take my like. |
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