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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express Top Men.
91
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Posted - 2014.10.20 02:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote:Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:[quote=Crimson ShieId][/quote If they would push back the ROF to what it was, but add a penalty that actually reduces the damage (or just lower the damage, but this would affect other uses of the small rail turrets) they could get around this problem. Or why don't they just have a hidden penalty attached to the dropship? That way players would have the original rate of fire, so no terrible heat issue/bug, but do less damage so that it would require more shots and provide a more balanced ship. I'm fine with the speed, to be honest. Sure faster is better, but I would rather be able to fire more shots than fire 7 shots sort of quickly. As it is, all an Incubus pilot can do is nag a Python, very rarely can he destroy it. Not unlike the problem with most AV weapons before Delta... I'm saying that if the rate of fire and overheat are too close together to adjust one without seriously messing with the other than my option looks like a viable choice. I personally am fine with the rate of fire except it drops the DPS and combined with the heat build-up issue makes it unable to seriously take on vehicles/installations.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415
193
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Posted - 2014.10.20 02:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
I am not really a fan of saying the Incubus is the ONLY ANTI VEHICLE DROPSHIP. It would be much more practical and dynamic for the game that the type of turret equipped on the assault dropship makes it anti vehicle or not. But as it stands the Incubus is in a bad place and the same goes for the python.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express Top Men.
91
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Posted - 2014.10.20 02:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:I am not really a fan of saying the Incubus is the ONLY ANTI VEHICLE DROPSHIP. It would be much more practical and dynamic for the game that the type of turret equipped on the assault dropship makes it anti vehicle or not. But as it stands the Incubus is in a bad place and the same goes for the python. I could get behind that, except there seems to be an issue that no one brings up. Why is it that the missiles are really good at dealing with infantry and at the same time are also pretty good at dealing with vehicles? If rails are truly meant to be AV and blasters are meant to be anti-infantry than what are the missiles suppose to be good for? The direct damage needs to be reduced so that the dps of missiles is lower than the dps AND overheat of the rails. Maybe the missiles should be for some serious suppression? Decrease the direct damage a lot and decrease the splash damage some, but increase the splash radius to maybe like 8 meters?
OR
Decrease direct damage of the missile turrets. Leave the splash damage and splash radius alone, but increase the clip of Blasters and/or reduce heat build-up of blasters.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
925
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Posted - 2014.10.20 02:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
BrotherofHavok wrote:Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote:Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:[quote=Crimson ShieId][/quote If they would push back the ROF to what it was, but add a penalty that actually reduces the damage (or just lower the damage, but this would affect other uses of the small rail turrets) they could get around this problem. Or why don't they just have a hidden penalty attached to the dropship? That way players would have the original rate of fire, so no terrible heat issue/bug, but do less damage so that it would require more shots and provide a more balanced ship. I'm fine with the speed, to be honest. Sure faster is better, but I would rather be able to fire more shots than fire 7 shots sort of quickly. As it is, all an Incubus pilot can do is nag a Python, very rarely can he destroy it. Not unlike the problem with most AV weapons before Delta... I'm saying that if the rate of fire and overheat are too close together to adjust one without seriously messing with the other than my option looks like a viable choice. I personally am fine with the rate of fire except it drops the DPS and combined with the heat build-up issue makes it unable to seriously take on vehicles/installations.
I know what you mean. I'm just not familiar enough with how the mechanics work behind the scenes to know whether a change like that is possible. It should be, but I guess we have to wait until CCP acknowledges the problem to find out.
The Incubus is Broken
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415
193
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Posted - 2014.10.20 03:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
BrotherofHavok wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:I am not really a fan of saying the Incubus is the ONLY ANTI VEHICLE DROPSHIP. It would be much more practical and dynamic for the game that the type of turret equipped on the assault dropship makes it anti vehicle or not. But as it stands the Incubus is in a bad place and the same goes for the python. I could get behind that, except there seems to be an issue that no one brings up. Why is it that the missiles are really good at dealing with infantry and at the same time are also pretty good at dealing with vehicles? If rails are truly meant to be AV and blasters are meant to be anti-infantry than what are the missiles suppose to be good for? The direct damage needs to be reduced so that the dps of missiles is lower than the dps AND overheat of the rails. Maybe the missiles should be for some serious suppression? Decrease the direct damage a lot and decrease the splash damage some, but increase the splash radius to maybe like 8 meters? OR Decrease direct damage of the missile turrets. Leave the splash damage and splash radius alone, but increase the clip of Blasters and/or reduce heat build-up of blasters.
I don't think the missiles need to be reduced, When the rail turret and missile turret were both given better rate of fire, they produced better results, some may say far to well. Missiles are good against infantry and vehicles no different than the forge gun and plasma cannon are against infantry. Missiles need to produce more damage to punch through vehicle armor. For them to achieve this for vehicles they need a high rate of fire. To kill infantry they need a better splash damage, which would bring us to having different types of turrets for all types, specializing in a specific role. During HAV fights I have went through almost all my ammo in many games trying to just kill one single HAV. That number is greatly reduced with the rail if we are talking pre Delta. There is a thread floating around started by Halla on acceptable numbers and also the official dropship post delta feedback to where everyone has been talking about reintroduce turret variants. Making a missile turret that is AV with little to no splash damage, specific in engaging vehicles. A turret designed or infantry, and a turret that is slightly in between. Blasters actually suffer from a similar issue. Currently blasters have the best ROF, but they also need more ammo per box and more max ammo to be affective against infantry. Ratatti has it where the blaster has a small splash damage, and this is actually been a great idea, it now needs more bullets and a decrease in heat build up. After that it will excel in killing infantry over missiles easily.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Lupus Wolf
Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.10.20 03:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:I am not really a fan of saying the Incubus is the ONLY ANTI VEHICLE DROPSHIP. It would be much more practical and dynamic for the game that the type of turret equipped on the assault dropship makes it anti vehicle or not. But as it stands the Incubus is in a bad place and the same goes for the python. The Incubus isn't the only "Anti-Vehicle" dropship, but the bonus for rail turrets it makes it more effective as that role.
Derpty Derp wrote:Atiim wrote:I think the RoF on all turrets need to be increased by 15%, and have a different bonus for the ADS, maybe:
+5% Splash Radius per Level (Python) +8% Heat Sink Expansion per Level (Incubus)
Not only that, but the Damage on 20GJ Railguns also needs an increase. As it stands now, they have absolutely no chance against a 'Triple Rep' Madrugar. If you give me 15% RoF even the fooked up sentinal swarmers wont last long enough to get a 2nd shot off, lol. Basic small rails do enough damage to trololol infantry meanwhile doing enough to drop all but the dreaded triple rep Madruga, which suggests the issue with with armour rep or even just that people should be allowed to make their tank immune to small rails as they will get dropped by everything else in seconds. The small blaster perhaps could use a slight increase, but only really on an ads that doesn't get to sit still for long, because I'm running small blasters on a cheap LAV and taking out HMG's with ease. Ratati has stated that he hates small rail turrets being able to fire fast.
Just adding my useless and slightly unrelated 2 bits here:
I only skilled into the ADS a few months ago. I went Incubus because of it's tank and I heard the Python's shields were like paper. Now I know it's not as bad if it's fit right. Personally, I switched from Incubus to Python because of it's natural resistance to AV. Still getting used to the handling though, it seems to always want to move forward. Also, imo, I wouldn't stick turrets on my ADS because it takes away from tank. I'd rather NOT lose 300k than get a few vehicle kill assists.
P.S. Back in Bravo, my bro and I (With basic swarms and an advanced Forge) took down an Incubus before he had a chance to get away (it was around 10 seconds). He came back and with another blueberry swarmer, we took him down before he could even hit the afterburner. Yes, he probably had a low tanked fit, but just sayin, AV was fine IF we worked as a team and knew WHEN to engage (Or if the pilot was dumb). Now, mind you, the buff to swarms also encouraged more players to put a few skills in them, resulting in even more AV than before. I can only hang around for a few minutes before there's 3 swarmers on my tail. No, I don't agree that someone with a 2.5 million SP investment should be equal to someone with a 12k SP into swarms, but that's not a problem with dropships, is it?
Gunnlogis with BLASTERS!?! BLASPHEMY!!! #MissilesFoLyfe
|: Rail/Missile GL< Blaster GL< B Matty< M Matty< Missile GL :|
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Operative 1125 Lokaas
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
508
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Posted - 2014.10.20 04:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
It also sucks to have to be so pinpoint accurate with a rail and yet take damage so easily from swarms. Pythons just run off or hover close down to their lil b*tch swarmer buddy now. Missile turret shouldn't be the better choice for an Incubus.
THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
238
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Posted - 2014.10.20 06:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
The Incubus it self is not broken.
I've been flying it nonstop over the last several days, and i've been brought down by what brought me down pre Delta, 5x Damage modded CK.0 Proto forge guns, railtanks, blueberries and enemies ramming me, getting stuck on building textures, undodgeable swarms etc. I haven't seen a single missile yet that didn't follow me around buildings, pipes, and the like.
That being said, it can still be survivable to fly, and I much prefer it over the Python.
However, every thing i speced into the incubus for is crap. Raill turret over heats at 7 shots and does't have the DPS to take down other ships before sizeing up. Blasters are a joke versus infantry. ROF is usless. Its not too bad with some missiles on it.. I've gotten 3 or 4 air to air kills with it.
You just have to do three things.
1)Engage the enemy early on, dont give them a chance to set up AV nests. They wont render but their Nanohives will, take them out and leave the enemy there. Without resuspply they are useless.
2) Proto fit. Anything less than proto is going to die very quickly, proto swarms are still rare.
3) Enlist the help of a tanker buddy (i got delb0y) to destroy every single CRU and Supply Deot, ASAP. If its red its dead, and not so many players are going to pull out proto gear when there is no hope of switching back.
Yes, i'll do what i got to do when i'm running on the ground, but when i'm in the air or in a vehicle, screw the infantry, Blue and Red.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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iKILLu osborne
Kirjuun Heiian
430
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Posted - 2014.10.20 08:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
my tank is more afraid of an incubus with a missile than an incubus with a rail, that right there says something is broken
lp cal scout i demand it
kirjuun heiian now recruiting cal loyalist
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
2035
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Posted - 2014.10.20 08:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
As a Python pilot I can say without doubt the Incubus is in a rough place. Right now its only 'bonus' is being tough enough to ram a python out of the sky.
Before, yes the railgun was OP on the incubus. The missiles were a OP vs infantry. Right now the missiles are reasonable vs infantry and lacking a little vs vehicles but they are still in a much better place than rails are against anything.
Lets not forget the small blasters though for the incubus, they are actually really good again now for those that forget about that.
Overall the rails need fixing. Lets not kid ourselves, the main reason this all got changed so much was because of pilot stacking skills. I would like to see a balance where every dropship is totally viable in its role, a good missile python pilot should beat a bad rail incubus but a good rail incubus should be able to kill a good missile python.
Lets not forget the missiles do have the advantage of being versatile against most targets where as an incubus has to pick an anti infantry or an anti vehicle role. (Further, blasters are only good for side gunners. The blaster sucks balls for the ADS main weapon)
So yes balance for all please.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game RUST415
556
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Posted - 2014.10.20 10:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:In your video you missed the last shot which would have downed the Python & then you hovered there infront of it to get shot... That was not a good argument for fixing the issue. I actually didn't miss the shot, and I'm glad somebody noticed that. Watch it again and you'll notice the reticule is firmly on the opposing dropship. That, my friend, is the other issue with small rails: Hideous Hit Detection.
You were fractionally off the right side in my view... But as for the rails not being balanced if your only issue is the higher level heat buildup issue then I agree with you, however if you're suggesting that it's no good at lvl 0 - 3 then I'd have to disagree as I am quite happy with the lvl 3 rails. |
Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
948
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Posted - 2014.10.20 15:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:In your video you missed the last shot which would have downed the Python & then you hovered there infront of it to get shot... That was not a good argument for fixing the issue. I actually didn't miss the shot, and I'm glad somebody noticed that. Watch it again and you'll notice the reticule is firmly on the opposing dropship. That, my friend, is the other issue with small rails: Hideous Hit Detection. You were fractionally off the right side in my view... But as for the rails not being balanced if your only issue is the higher level heat buildup issue then I agree with you, however if you're suggesting that it's no good at lvl 0 - 3 then I'd have to disagree as I am quite happy with the lvl 3 rails.
I'm saying the opposite. As it is right now, I feel that a level 1 Incubus is actually better at its job than a level 5, due to the fact it can fire more shots. A speedy ROF counts for nothing if you just overheat before dealing with your enemy.
The Incubus is Broken
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
948
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Posted - 2014.10.20 15:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote:It also sucks to have to be so pinpoint accurate with a rail and yet take damage so easily from swarms. Pythons just run off or hover close down to their lil b*tch swarmer buddy now. Missile turret shouldn't be the better choice for an Incubus.
An Incubus should not have to run missiles to be effective, just as a swarmer should not have to skill into forges to be a threat to vehicles. (as it was pre buff)
Agreed.
The Incubus is Broken
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
948
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Posted - 2014.10.20 15:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
Lupus Wolf wrote:Also, imo, I wouldn't stick turrets on my ADS because it takes away from tank. I'd rather NOT lose 300k than get a few vehicle kill assists.
You really should give side guns a chance! The benefit you receive in firepower really is worth the loss of a couple hundred HP.
That said, DON'T use an Incubus with a skilled gunner. As you can see in the video, they'd probably die from overheat before killing their target
The Incubus is Broken
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
953
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:The Incubus it self is not broken.
Correct. The ship itself is fine. The issue is with the bonuses and heat mechanics behind the scenes.
Saying "The Incubus is Broken" was a good way to get people to engage with the topic, and then discover the issue at hand. (the "Here's Why" part)
The Incubus is Broken
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
953
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:As a Python pilot I can say without doubt the Incubus is in a rough place. Right now its only 'bonus' is being tough enough to ram a python out of the sky.
Before, yes the railgun was OP on the incubus. The missiles were a OP vs infantry. Right now the missiles are reasonable vs infantry and lacking a little vs vehicles but they are still in a much better place than rails are against anything.
Lets not forget the small blasters though for the incubus, they are actually really good again now for those that forget about that.
Overall the rails need fixing. Lets not kid ourselves, the main reason this all got changed so much was because of pilot stacking skills. I would like to see a balance where every dropship is totally viable in its role, a good missile python pilot should beat a bad rail incubus but a good rail incubus should be able to kill a good missile python.
Lets not forget the missiles do have the advantage of being versatile against most targets where as an incubus has to pick an anti infantry or an anti vehicle role. (Further, blasters are only good for side gunners. The blaster sucks balls for the ADS main weapon)
So yes balance for all please.
Agreed 100%, on all points. +1
The Incubus is Broken
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game RUST415
560
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Posted - 2014.10.20 18:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: I'm saying the opposite. As it is right now, I feel that a level 1 Incubus is actually better at its job than a level 5, due to the fact it can fire more shots. A speedy ROF counts for nothing if you just overheat before dealing with your enemy.
I agree that lvl 1 shouldn't be better than lvl 5 (as it is at the moment) but I also disagree that we should be able to destroy a vehicle without having the deal with the heat buildup, having to save a few shots is far more entertaining than the 'pew pew pew dead Python/Gunlogi' of pre-Delta...
I've downed a good number of Pythons and tanks (Don't think I've come across any triple reps yet, but a few that will rep back up if you don't land every shot, which I feel fine with.)
At best I would suggest first fixing the heat build up issue, before moving on to changing the amount of shots that we can fire before overheat... Anymore than 9 I feel would be far too easy (for my liking.) |
Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
974
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Posted - 2014.10.20 19:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:I agree that lvl 1 shouldn't be better than lvl 5 (as it is at the moment) but I also disagree that we should be able to destroy a vehicle without having the deal with the heat buildup, having to save a few shots is far more entertaining than the 'pew pew pew dead Python/Gunlogi' of pre-Delta...
Of course we should have heat buildup! Without it, as you say, rails would dominate everything.
Instead, heat buildup should be toned down to a point between what it was pre delta, and post delta. The skill bonus also should be looked at, as it is quite useless right now.
The Incubus is Broken
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jace silencerww
Second-Nature
64
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Posted - 2014.10.27 21:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:As a Python pilot I can say without doubt the Incubus is in a rough place. Right now its only 'bonus' is being tough enough to ram a python out of the sky.
Before, yes the railgun was OP on the incubus. The missiles were a OP vs infantry. Right now the missiles are reasonable vs infantry and lacking a little vs vehicles but they are still in a much better place than rails are against anything.
Lets not forget the small blasters though for the incubus, they are actually really good again now for those that forget about that.
Overall the rails need fixing. Lets not kid ourselves, the main reason this all got changed so much was because of pilot stacking skills. I would like to see a balance where every dropship is totally viable in its role, a good missile python pilot should beat a bad rail incubus but a good rail incubus should be able to kill a good missile python.
Lets not forget the missiles do have the advantage of being versatile against most targets where as an incubus has to pick an anti infantry or an anti vehicle role. (Further, blasters are only good for side gunners. The blaster sucks balls for the ADS main weapon)
So yes balance for all please. LOL ok blasters are good AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT put them on an Incubus be it for the gunner. you shot 48-54 rounds before you over heat. and use them as the pilot you do better crushing reds then shooting them.
lol want a good ads then here skill into the assault dropship skill (bonus to damage) but do not skill into the gall ads skill for the rof and ammo. you will do better damage and shoot more with the rails this way. you do not have to have that skill to use the incubus. funny CCP is hurting players that skilled into the gall ads lol. |
Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
1202
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Posted - 2014.10.27 22:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
jace silencerww wrote:LOL ok blasters are good AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT put them on an Incubus be it for the gunner. you shot 48-54 rounds before you over heat. and use them as the pilot you do better crushing reds then shooting them.
lol want a good ads then here skill into the assault dropship skill (bonus to damage) but do not skill into the gall ads skill for the rof and ammo. you will do better damage and shoot more with the rails this way. you do not have to have that skill to use the incubus. funny CCP is hurting players that skilled into the gall ads lol.
After tomorrow, the problem should be lessoned.
I agree with you on blasters though. They are best on ground vehicles, due to the inherently steady platform that LAVs and Tanks provide. Put it on a dropship and you start getting problems. A blaster gunner often finds him or herself in a far to elevated position to deal with infantry, because of the blaster's nature as a close range weapon.
And of course putting a blaster as the main gun of an ADS is questionable, given that the spread is so horrendous and the nose of the dropship obscures your target.
The Incubus is Broken
Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
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jace silencerww
Second-Nature
65
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Posted - 2014.10.28 02:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:jace silencerww wrote:LOL ok blasters are good AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT put them on an Incubus be it for the gunner. you shot 48-54 rounds before you over heat. and use them as the pilot you do better crushing reds then shooting them.
lol want a good ads then here skill into the assault dropship skill (bonus to damage) but do not skill into the gall ads skill for the rof and ammo. you will do better damage and shoot more with the rails this way. you do not have to have that skill to use the incubus. funny CCP is hurting players that skilled into the gall ads lol. After tomorrow, the problem should be lessoned. I agree with you on blasters though. They are best on ground vehicles, due to the inherently steady platform that LAVs and Tanks provide. Put it on a dropship and you start getting problems. A blaster gunner often finds him or herself in a far to elevated position to deal with infantry, because of the blaster's nature as a close range weapon. And of course putting a blaster as the main gun of an ADS is questionable, given that the spread is so horrendous and the nose of the dropship obscures your target.
reelly? nope as long as the incubus has the heat build up of 1.02 per level it will not be any good on an incubus. reason being the stack ads skills equal a total heat build up of 1.2 per shot with a 1.3 rof increase. so you get faster stronger shots but only until 48-54 rounds before you over heat and in cool down. even a great gunner will be hard to get a kill within that many shots. to be at 60-70 meters the hit circle is about lav (not zoomed). even with a proto blasters with damage boosted you ae only hitting 1-3 of 7-14 shots. |
Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
1203
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Posted - 2014.10.28 05:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tell me how you feel after tomorrow. The heat buildup is being addressed, so I think it's a little unfair to judge at this stage.
The Incubus is Broken
Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
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