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@Rattati and balancing using spreadsheets and graphs

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12684	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:28:00 - [1] - Quote While it's great that someone at CCP is finally using gahsp math for balancing, I think you are missing some elements that can be hard to quantify. An example would be Alpha damage. While a weapon might have DPS that fits your range/damage graphs perfectly, it can have ludicrous alpha. A perfect example? Bolt Pistol. Notice how it fits into your graphs and yet it's overpopular? That's because alpha damage has significance. Being hit by upfront 250 damage is different than 30-60 damage bites. The DPS might be the same, but the delivery of said DPS is different. High Alpha is usually paid for with lower DPS, that's just how it is. Another example would be detectability. Again, using the bolt pistol as an example. It's silent, and deals a truckload of damage in 4 shots. Compare that to the hail of bullets coming from an SMG, and you see what I mean by detectability. I ask you to be mindful of these variables. While math is great, your gut as a designer also needs to play a role. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12684	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:39:00 - [2] - Quote Note, this isn't an anti Bolt Pistol thread, I just used it because it's a recent example fresh in everyone's memories. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4261	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:57:00 - [3] - Quote Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12685	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:05:00 - [4] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) Aye, but as Rattati said, some players on the forums have an eye for balance. He should listen to them more, as I've noticed that as long as the "graphs" or "data" say something is fine, it's fine, until it's released and then the data says otherwise. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:06:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12685	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:08:00 - [6] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17323	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:12:00 - [7] - Quote 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Assault Rifles =// Unlocked
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:14:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. The forums have been doing it for two years now, problem is it falls on deaf ears. Swarms previously doing 3000 damage per volley? They didn't care, they instituted it. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4576	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:16:00 - [9] - Quote You make a good point Cat. I donGÇÖt think that Rattati is unaware of this point, but it does not hurt to remind him. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:19:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. 1. CCP defence force at work i see


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8794	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:22:00 - [11] - Quote I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12686	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:23:00 - [12] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. 1. CCP defence force at work i see HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA Oh my god, you don't even know how much shit I gave CCP over the years. If I'm one of the defense force then by god IWS must be married to CCP. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12686	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. That's how I do it. /shamelessplug Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. 2911	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [14] - Quote Or, sometimes, you forgot to account for a parameter in your formula. When you add it, everything works perfectly. "The DUST 514 Dev Team is not reduced or affected by the restructuring at CCP."
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [15] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. 1. If its so easy to go around the CPM then the playerbase really doesnt need you and the money they can save from sending you on holiday to china can be put back into development - win win for everyone involved
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:33:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: While it's great that someone at CCP is finally using gahsp math for balancing, I think you are missing some elements that can be hard to quantify. An example would be Alpha damage. While a weapon might have DPS that fits your range/damage graphs perfectly, it can have ludicrous alpha. A perfect example? Bolt Pistol. Notice how it fits into your graphs and yet it's overpopular? That's because alpha damage has significance. Being hit by upfront 250 damage is different than 30-60 damage bites. The DPS might be the same, but the delivery of said DPS is different. High Alpha is usually paid for with lower DPS, that's just how it is. Another example would be detectability. Again, using the bolt pistol as an example. It's silent, and deals a truckload of damage in 4 shots. Compare that to the hail of bullets coming from an SMG, and you see what I mean by detectability. I ask you to be mindful of these variables. While math is great, your gut as a designer also needs to play a role. It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8795	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:35:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:37:00 - [18] - Quote It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3898	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:39:00 - [19] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: f its so easy to go around the CPM then the playerbase really doesn't need you and the money they can save from sending you on holiday to China can be put back into development - win win for everyone involved I'd rather have advocates who speak with CCP daily on our behalf, personally. My advice to you, playa...
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:41:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. IWS, you're forgetting something It's a magic word. Self Entitlement

Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:53:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:57:00 - [22] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true There ya go, CCP Rattati. No testing was done. You didn't ask us pilots about it, at all. It was your decision, and yours alone. As such, the ADS is now useless except for faster transport to a roof than a regular DS. I've said before, I'll take the old rate of fire with half the missile damage, because I need to get more rounds on target when I have to worry about 5 people with PRO AV, and 3 with MLT. There's real old topics way before your time on this game. Now with this, I'm not calling you stupid, but maybe you could have someone experienced with data mining search the forums for that information. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:02:00 - [23] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games. Are you sure? Because sniper rifles still suck ass. And I think bolt pistols are probably not as good as everyone thinks they are. I've heard lots of claims about them outdamaging light weapons or being super accurate hipfire. My experience is just the opposite of this. I think the only real bug/op thing about the bolt pistol is the bullet magnetism sometimes gives you some rediculous hits that shouldnt have happened. Im much more comfortable with CCP balancing on actual data vs. the rediculous, mathmatically impossible claims like one clip no headshot bolt pistol kills on heavies and bolt pistols out damaging light weapons that come out of some random donkey on the forums.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8808	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:04:00 - [24] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1629	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. I'm not gonna defend the crazy guy that should be banned (do it Rattati), but saying something is based off of 'x' reason, in this case math, with no actual x, math, makes you sound like a simple case of "I'm big and you're small, I'm right and you're wrong"... Show me the money(math) Rattati. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but, you're no god figure in my book, no blind faith on my part. There are two movie paraphrases in there, get them both right anyone and maybe something will pop up into your wallet. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2891	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:13:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. I've pretty much said all there is to say about ADS. I'm sure you've read this thing, so I'm sure there's nothing left for me to say. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:18:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. 1. Problem - Highlighted in point 3 2. Problem - Point 5 but after all the general nerfs to vehicles im not suprised nothing has been changed 3. Excuse that decision was made via math - Yet no math was shown whatsoever
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:22:00 - [28] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Lloyd Orfay wrote: It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games. Are you sure? Because sniper rifles still suck ass. And I think bolt pistols are probably not as good as everyone thinks they are. I've heard lots of claims about them outdamaging light weapons or being super accurate hipfire. My experience is just the opposite of this. I think the only real bug/op thing about the bolt pistol is the bullet magnetism sometimes gives you some rediculous hits that shouldnt have happened. Im much more comfortable with CCP balancing on actual data vs. the rediculous, mathmatically impossible claims like one clip no headshot bolt pistol kills on heavies and bolt pistols out damaging light weapons that come out of some random donkey on the forums. Yes. I have some snipers of my own and they still do pretty good on basic, in fact they're stronger than before you could say. Just the dot reticle pushes them back, and a possible bug when using tactical snipers where if you quickly shoot a second shot after it won't land.(this is actually a good thing since snipers don't have much of a use to squads or teams) The bolt pistol isn't exaggeration either. If you aim one in some tight CQC it will be just wild guessing, yet even so it is possible for some players to do so with ease. The better way to use it is to be a bit of range away. I have the basic version and I only need one shot for scouts and two for medium suits. Only rare times that people survive either from too much distance or major armouring, though on very miniscule amounts of health left. I feel the Bolt Pistol should've kept its original damage and ammo, but with a small boost to rate of fire and dispersion. You may feel that it isn't super accurate, but it is. The charge time on it just off sets its accuracy and it would rather benefit from having dispersion(It has the highest accuracy of all handheld gun class weapons, being seconded by the breach Scramber Pistol)
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 1170	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:35:00 - [29] - Quote Damage over time is a great balancing tool for weapons. Take into account when the first shot hits, and then add damage up over time and graph its rise for the entire clip for every weapon. There are some very interesting things to glean from this, especially when compared with the health of suits. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in these specialties, none compare in all of them
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:45:00 - [30] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: Damage over time is a great balancing tool for weapons. Take into account when the first shot hits, and then add damage up over time and graph its rise for the entire clip for every weapon. There are some very interesting things to glean from this, especially when compared with the health of suits. Its great to a point. It should be recognized that encounters pretty much never begin when the first shot hits, they start when one party sights the other. This results in encounters between a shotgunner and a railgun rifler have very different outcomes depending on who sees who first and at what ranges the encounter takes place starting from that base point. If the railgunner sees the shotgunner first and at a decent distance, they will have an overwhelming advantage despite the shotgun having better damage over time on paper.



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