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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12684	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:28:00 - [1] - Quote While it's great that someone at CCP is finally using gahsp math for balancing, I think you are missing some elements that can be hard to quantify. An example would be Alpha damage. While a weapon might have DPS that fits your range/damage graphs perfectly, it can have ludicrous alpha. A perfect example? Bolt Pistol. Notice how it fits into your graphs and yet it's overpopular? That's because alpha damage has significance. Being hit by upfront 250 damage is different than 30-60 damage bites. The DPS might be the same, but the delivery of said DPS is different. High Alpha is usually paid for with lower DPS, that's just how it is. Another example would be detectability. Again, using the bolt pistol as an example. It's silent, and deals a truckload of damage in 4 shots. Compare that to the hail of bullets coming from an SMG, and you see what I mean by detectability. I ask you to be mindful of these variables. While math is great, your gut as a designer also needs to play a role. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12684	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:39:00 - [2] - Quote Note, this isn't an anti Bolt Pistol thread, I just used it because it's a recent example fresh in everyone's memories. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4261	Posted - 2014.10.17 13:57:00 - [3] - Quote Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12685	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:05:00 - [4] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) Aye, but as Rattati said, some players on the forums have an eye for balance. He should listen to them more, as I've noticed that as long as the "graphs" or "data" say something is fine, it's fine, until it's released and then the data says otherwise. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:06:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12685	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:08:00 - [6] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17323	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:12:00 - [7] - Quote 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Assault Rifles =// Unlocked
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:14:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. The forums have been doing it for two years now, problem is it falls on deaf ears. Swarms previously doing 3000 damage per volley? They didn't care, they instituted it. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4576	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:16:00 - [9] - Quote You make a good point Cat. I donGÇÖt think that Rattati is unaware of this point, but it does not hurt to remind him. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:19:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. 1. CCP defence force at work i see


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8794	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:22:00 - [11] - Quote I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12686	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:23:00 - [12] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Good balance work takes into account both the math and the less tangible elements of it's operation as well. Rattati brings the math, we bring the player feedback. :) 1. The math is wrong - rattari graph says i should be able to outrun the last volley of swarms with AB on when the 1st hits me, it doesnt work 2. You bring the player feedback to the 1% (actually 937 votes) that voted for you out of a monthly playerbase of 300,000players 3. Experience and actual game time will always beat spreedsheets and graphs when you see how it actually works in practice 4. Back to the testing ground with you 5. You are just oozing of obvious butthurt. 1. CCP defence force at work i see HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA Oh my god, you don't even know how much shit I gave CCP over the years. If I'm one of the defense force then by god IWS must be married to CCP. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12686	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. That's how I do it. /shamelessplug Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. 2911	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [14] - Quote Or, sometimes, you forgot to account for a parameter in your formula. When you add it, everything works perfectly. "The DUST 514 Dev Team is not reduced or affected by the restructuring at CCP."
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:24:00 - [15] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. 1. If its so easy to go around the CPM then the playerbase really doesnt need you and the money they can save from sending you on holiday to china can be put back into development - win win for everyone involved
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:33:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: While it's great that someone at CCP is finally using gahsp math for balancing, I think you are missing some elements that can be hard to quantify. An example would be Alpha damage. While a weapon might have DPS that fits your range/damage graphs perfectly, it can have ludicrous alpha. A perfect example? Bolt Pistol. Notice how it fits into your graphs and yet it's overpopular? That's because alpha damage has significance. Being hit by upfront 250 damage is different than 30-60 damage bites. The DPS might be the same, but the delivery of said DPS is different. High Alpha is usually paid for with lower DPS, that's just how it is. Another example would be detectability. Again, using the bolt pistol as an example. It's silent, and deals a truckload of damage in 4 shots. Compare that to the hail of bullets coming from an SMG, and you see what I mean by detectability. I ask you to be mindful of these variables. While math is great, your gut as a designer also needs to play a role. It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8795	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:35:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:37:00 - [18] - Quote It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3898	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:39:00 - [19] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: f its so easy to go around the CPM then the playerbase really doesn't need you and the money they can save from sending you on holiday to China can be put back into development - win win for everyone involved I'd rather have advocates who speak with CCP daily on our behalf, personally. My advice to you, playa...
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:41:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. IWS, you're forgetting something It's a magic word. Self Entitlement

Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:53:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:57:00 - [22] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true There ya go, CCP Rattati. No testing was done. You didn't ask us pilots about it, at all. It was your decision, and yours alone. As such, the ADS is now useless except for faster transport to a roof than a regular DS. I've said before, I'll take the old rate of fire with half the missile damage, because I need to get more rounds on target when I have to worry about 5 people with PRO AV, and 3 with MLT. There's real old topics way before your time on this game. Now with this, I'm not calling you stupid, but maybe you could have someone experienced with data mining search the forums for that information. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:02:00 - [23] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games. Are you sure? Because sniper rifles still suck ass. And I think bolt pistols are probably not as good as everyone thinks they are. I've heard lots of claims about them outdamaging light weapons or being super accurate hipfire. My experience is just the opposite of this. I think the only real bug/op thing about the bolt pistol is the bullet magnetism sometimes gives you some rediculous hits that shouldnt have happened. Im much more comfortable with CCP balancing on actual data vs. the rediculous, mathmatically impossible claims like one clip no headshot bolt pistol kills on heavies and bolt pistols out damaging light weapons that come out of some random donkey on the forums.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8808	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:04:00 - [24] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1629	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. I'm not gonna defend the crazy guy that should be banned (do it Rattati), but saying something is based off of 'x' reason, in this case math, with no actual x, math, makes you sound like a simple case of "I'm big and you're small, I'm right and you're wrong"... Show me the money(math) Rattati. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but, you're no god figure in my book, no blind faith on my part. There are two movie paraphrases in there, get them both right anyone and maybe something will pop up into your wallet. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2891	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:13:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. I've pretty much said all there is to say about ADS. I'm sure you've read this thing, so I'm sure there's nothing left for me to say. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:18:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true Pretty much, yep. So what's the problem? The decision was math based. 1. Problem - Highlighted in point 3 2. Problem - Point 5 but after all the general nerfs to vehicles im not suprised nothing has been changed 3. Excuse that decision was made via math - Yet no math was shown whatsoever
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 71	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:22:00 - [28] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Lloyd Orfay wrote: It takes way less than four shots to kill average players with a bolt pistol. Sentinel maybe, but for medium suits or down just 1 or 2 could really be needed. weapons that kill in 3 shots or down usually are too exploitable for use in games. Are you sure? Because sniper rifles still suck ass. And I think bolt pistols are probably not as good as everyone thinks they are. I've heard lots of claims about them outdamaging light weapons or being super accurate hipfire. My experience is just the opposite of this. I think the only real bug/op thing about the bolt pistol is the bullet magnetism sometimes gives you some rediculous hits that shouldnt have happened. Im much more comfortable with CCP balancing on actual data vs. the rediculous, mathmatically impossible claims like one clip no headshot bolt pistol kills on heavies and bolt pistols out damaging light weapons that come out of some random donkey on the forums. Yes. I have some snipers of my own and they still do pretty good on basic, in fact they're stronger than before you could say. Just the dot reticle pushes them back, and a possible bug when using tactical snipers where if you quickly shoot a second shot after it won't land.(this is actually a good thing since snipers don't have much of a use to squads or teams) The bolt pistol isn't exaggeration either. If you aim one in some tight CQC it will be just wild guessing, yet even so it is possible for some players to do so with ease. The better way to use it is to be a bit of range away. I have the basic version and I only need one shot for scouts and two for medium suits. Only rare times that people survive either from too much distance or major armouring, though on very miniscule amounts of health left. I feel the Bolt Pistol should've kept its original damage and ammo, but with a small boost to rate of fire and dispersion. You may feel that it isn't super accurate, but it is. The charge time on it just off sets its accuracy and it would rather benefit from having dispersion(It has the highest accuracy of all handheld gun class weapons, being seconded by the breach Scramber Pistol)
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 1170	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:35:00 - [29] - Quote Damage over time is a great balancing tool for weapons. Take into account when the first shot hits, and then add damage up over time and graph its rise for the entire clip for every weapon. There are some very interesting things to glean from this, especially when compared with the health of suits. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in these specialties, none compare in all of them
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:45:00 - [30] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: Damage over time is a great balancing tool for weapons. Take into account when the first shot hits, and then add damage up over time and graph its rise for the entire clip for every weapon. There are some very interesting things to glean from this, especially when compared with the health of suits. Its great to a point. It should be recognized that encounters pretty much never begin when the first shot hits, they start when one party sights the other. This results in encounters between a shotgunner and a railgun rifler have very different outcomes depending on who sees who first and at what ranges the encounter takes place starting from that base point. If the railgunner sees the shotgunner first and at a decent distance, they will have an overwhelming advantage despite the shotgun having better damage over time on paper.

Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:57:00 - [31] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: Yes. I have some snipers of my own and they still do pretty good on basic, in fact they're stronger than before you could say. Stronger than before but they still have very little effect in the field (aka they suck). Lloyd Orfay wrote: The bolt pistol isn't exaggeration either. If you aim one in some tight CQC it will be just wild guessing, yet even so it is possible for some players to do so with ease. The better way to use it is to be a bit of range away. I have the basic version and I only need one shot for scouts and two for medium suits. Only rare times that people survive either from too much distance or major armouring, though on very miniscule amounts of health left. I feel the Bolt Pistol should've kept its original damage and ammo, but with a small boost to rate of fire and dispersion. You may feel that it isn't super accurate, but it is. The charge time on it just off sets its accuracy and it would rather benefit from having dispersion(It has the highest accuracy of all handheld gun class weapons, being seconded by the breach Scramber Pistol) Its super accurate in ADS, but the hipfire not so much, its pretty easy to miss unless the guy is just charging straight at you. And just saying "I only need one shot for scouts and two for medium suits" is misleading because the tank on these suits can run anywhere from nearly 250-ish (****** starter suits that take 1-2 shots) to ~1100 (4-6 shots depending on shield vs. armor composition). The minmatar advanced suit I run takes 3-4 shots to take down, and half its modules arent hp modules, this suit has rarely been killed by the bolt pistol, even during the sidearm event. I do well with the bolt pistol just like I do well with everything else, just because it stomps crappy fits doesnt mean its good, it means crappy fits are bad. But hey this isn't a bolt pistol balancing thread.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1729	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:21:00 - [32] - Quote The OP is dead on correct, IMO. It's the Alpha and the relative silence of the Bolt that makes it as deadly as it is when compared to other sidearms. That said, I find the Bolt Pistol fairly easy to defeat in CQC. It's when it catches me unaware, typically at range, that I have no chance....which is at least partially my own fault.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1233	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:01:00 - [33] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. The forums have been doing it for two years now, problem is it falls on deaf ears. Swarms previously doing 3000 damage per volley? They didn't care, they instituted it. Not all opinions are weighed equally. I think you have always done an outstanding job demonstrating why this is a good thing. Because, that's why.
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 140	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:34:00 - [34] - Quote The subconscious reaction to a high alpha hit is much different to a chip, chip attack of a rifle - it more often makes you think gtf out rather than fire back and because there is no constant noise source it's much harder to work out the position of the enemy again encouraging you to seek cover rather than retaliating. PS Matilda Gerry Maguire
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 57	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:35:00 - [35] - Quote Foo Fighting wrote: The subconscious reaction to a high alpha hit is much different to a chip, chip attack of a rifle - it more often makes you think gtf out rather than fire back and because there is no constant noise source it's much harder to work out the position of the enemy again encouraging you to seek cover rather than retaliating. PS Matilda Gerry Maguire Dunno about you but my first reaction to any hit (unless its clearly insignificant e.g. rifle hitting from 3% efficiency or something) is to run to nearest cover unless I know whats hitting me and where its hitting me from (in which case I may still run to nearest cover depending on situation)
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 140	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:57:00 - [36] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Foo Fighting wrote: The subconscious reaction to a high alpha hit is much different to a chip, chip attack of a rifle - it more often makes you think gtf out rather than fire back and because there is no constant noise source it's much harder to work out the position of the enemy again encouraging you to seek cover rather than retaliating. PS Matilda Gerry Maguire Dunno about you but my first reaction to any hit (unless its clearly insignificant e.g. rifle hitting from 3% efficiency or something) is to run to nearest cover unless I know whats hitting me and where its hitting me from (in which case I may still run to nearest cover depending on situation) OK but the point is that it's much easier to make the assesment with the constant hit indicators and constant sound of a rifle than it is with a single high alpha from the relatively quiet bolt pistol.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 190	Posted - 2014.10.17 19:02:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. The problem is in the balanced mechanics. Even with an afterburner you do not travel at top speed going vertical. Most dropships are always flying at anywhere from a 40 to 50 degree angle to speed away from swarms. The speed at which they travel could use a small increment of speed deduction if you want pilots to out run swarms. Even taking the dropship and setting it at an 90 degree angle with an active afterburner still going a few of the volley still eventually land. I am indifferent about swarm speed my issue with swarms as they are is they need a bit more love to cutting its turning radius because of its speed. The ADS has to make to large of a turn while keeping maximum speed Using the Line Harvest map I will show you the issue. Let's say the dropship and swarmer is at objective B on the map. The python, using this one because it has the better turning radius, is on the intersection of G,H - 7,8. Just off from being on the objective. Let's put the swarm user at G7 right next to the supply depot, with a perfect 90-Ü angle, exposing the complete side of the dropship. The first volley hits, and the second is on its way. The dropship pilot hits the afterburner on moving towards H8. (The pilot is now scanning around to see where the swarms are coming from while trying to gain altitude). The second hits and he spots the swarmer near the supply depot. The pilot wants to fight the swarm user back but before they can they must make it hard for the third volley in the air to hit. To do so the pilot needs to make a hard turn in hopes to try and loose the swarms to open up an opportunity to shoot back. The pilot will be moving across a 4 grid range to try and use piloting skill to outsmart the missiles. We will use G6-7, H6-7 to make a type of meaningful complete 360-Ü turn. If your team can pull out some numbers to work within geometric space for swarm turning rate, that should balance out swarms with assault dropships. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Duke Noobiam Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 200	Posted - 2014.10.17 19:03:00 - [38] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Cat Merc wrote: stuff It's not math. Figuring out that the old TAC AR was on par with a large blaster was math. What's he's doing is just pulling numbers out of a hat without testing anything. If you say so it must be true 1. Post 118 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371528#post2371528 2. Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? Asked by a forum user - Rattari answer 'The decision was mine and mine alone' 3. No discussion with any of the community on such a big change that would make ADS afterward useless 4. Even looking at the rest of the quote it is a hit and hope it fixes things and if the stats say its fine, it is fine and nothing will change even if it sucks and is terrible to use in game 5. Even says if the ADS performace stats plummet something will be done and not with a hotfix, well the incubus has lost its AV ability, the python is rarely used now and in every game im seeing more general DS than ADS and as for PC performance i would not be suprised if its fallen off the x axis 6. Time of post - 2014.09.23 - Day today - 2014.10.17 - No action taken 7. If you say so rattari it must be true The butthurt is strong with this one... He must no longer be able to go 25-0 and roam the sky with impunity while all infantry scramble to get indoors. How do you kill that which has no life?
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 842	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:30:00 - [39] - Quote what about total over all damage perclip?. shouldnt that be factored in? pve for dust 514. so what? u killed me twice with proto?. i killed you once with my mlt fit. that takes more skill.
CLONE ALPHA 001 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 39	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:51:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. psssst! look at the net code

howard sanchez 979	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:56:00 - [41] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 6. its easy for the community to circumvent CPM if they use enough calmness and rational and well grounded math of thier own. Hysteria, claims of grandeur, Expressions of Exaggeration do not sell well. The forums have been doing it for two years now, problem is it falls on deaf ears. Swarms previously doing 3000 damage per volley? They didn't care, they instituted it. For once I must take the other side of this argument; it should be clear that what we say in this forum does not fall on deaf ears - the dev blog for 1.9 states that ccp intends to provide more feedback, data, transparency, interaction and consideration of player input than they have before. These things are what we've been asking for since long before our Red Wedding. And to be honest, we have had a better relationship with Shanghai this summer ( call it break up sex...whatever). But the words they chose in the dev blog clearly demonstrate that ccp hears us and knows what we are asking for. It's more the doing and less the hearing now. But knowing that they hear us has been a fine first step. The biggest thus far. Today I bought aurum for the first time post Fanfest and I got fitted for a gallente the Quafe suit. My small thank you for ccp's extended hand. Let's see where this goes. Show off your Quafe
CLONE ALPHA 001 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 39	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:59:00 - [42] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I blame something else, it's for some reason too easy to hit with it. But you are right. However, the first steps need to be mathematical and then you tweak on feeling and gut. That's the difference. said some ish that wasn't even related to the conversation. you know hes talking about the bolt pistol right? not swarms!!!
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 614	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:11:00 - [43] - Quote Matilda Jerry Maguire (spelt correctly!) The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 141	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:25:00 - [44] - Quote sabre prime wrote: Matilda Jerry Maguire (spelt correctly!) or is that spelled?
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 614	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:31:00 - [45] - Quote Foo Fighting wrote: sabre prime wrote: Matilda Jerry Maguire (spelt correctly!) or is that spelled? I speak the Queen's old chap. The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 141	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:39:00 - [46] - Quote Me too - I just got nowt better to do at the moment than post relative nonsense on the forums. I'm still claiming 1st though - although I doubt either of us will get any wallet candy for our answer.


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