he knows what's up.

He should. He spends a lot of time there.

Well, I'm looking at nerf this and that threads, and have honestly gotten sick of the tin foil hat suggestions, so here's my two cents. I'd like to start off the discussion with the ADS and its modules. This is here because I feel like it.

What are my credentials for recommending anything concerning this kind of balancing?

First: I'm a chrome vet. I was flying when blasters were awesome, and everyone preferred them over rockets. I was around when rockets were underrated, during the chrome build, I might add

Second: Quite a bit of experience flying in PC for various corps, and against various corps.

Third: Invested heavily into both armor and shield ADS. (at least 20 mil by now)

AB issue: I saw you didn't have a definitive number for the recharge rate of the AB's. I knew that the nerf was going to happen, and was honestly for it. Anyway, might I recommend a 15s to 20s recharge time? This would keep the module from becoming useless, but would also make it more imperative for pilots to skill into core grid management for ADS.

There was also something that Atiim recommended a while back concerning the recharge rates. Separating the recharge rates by tier. In order of MLT/STD/ADV/PRO the rates were 25/20/15/10. Keep in mind that the proto AB costs a lot of PG to fit, so most pilots would have to sacrifice some tank to fit this.

ADS Rate of Fire: I won't lie, I skilled my ROF to the max, and I like it, a lot. But I've been told it's a little high. The fair princess Zatata skyped me that it would be a little better if it was nerfed by 15%. I'd like to see the results of Delta before saying anything on that.

Incubus armor: I have a rail fit that I can with over 4000 armor, and a proto light repair, and I only had to skill level 3 into armor optimization. May want to look into that, CCP. (granted, I used a PG upgrade)

Now let's move on to the next order of business, taking out ADS and the methods to do so.

Ramming: I've got no sympathy for fellow pilots on this. Sorry, but if you don't watch what's happening around you, you need to get rammed. Besides, a rammer can only get you if you're hovering, being dumb, or blind luck.

Forges: I previously recommended a buff to forges, but some more experienced forge gunners I've talked to said that they were fine, so I'm going to leave that to a more knowledgeable forge user than I (I do like forging, it is fun).

Rail tanks: So I just got my proto rail tank, and I can two shot most ADS out of the sky, save for the Incubus armor stacked ones, but to be honest I'd say wait to see the results on the returning the rails to their proper damage profiles before doing anything.

PLC's: They hurt more than you think

Missile tanks: I am honestly amazed that so few people have ever thought of using this as a form of AA. If you've ever squadded with an ADS pilot pre-charlie, we would tell you the most annoying thing is being hit by those God forsaken installations in the redline. It was, in my opinion, THE most annoying thing in this game.

Installations: The buff they got I'm only sort of fine with, but the fact that people can camp them in their redline without even pushing is a little annoying, not usually lethal to me, but annoying nonetheless.

Swarms: I'm going to need a winter jacket because what I'm about to say I swore I'd never say unless hell froze over. The proposed changes to swarms, including the buff, I'm for (puts on coat).

I do, however, believe that either one of two things should be done: (I'm talking about acceleration)

1) Restrict this buff to ADV and PRO tier swarms, forcing a player skilling into AV more than "Hey! I got militia swarms! Let's shoot that thing!"

That, OR:

2) Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into.

Anyway, that's my two cents, apologies for taking so long, but I did put a song at the top to keep you from dying of boredom.

You forgot small railguns on LAVs. They're deadly as f**k, trust me I took the OP's Python out with one...

you need to listen to this guy. he knows what's up.

Why does everyone think it's an accomplishment when they kill me? And I never mentioned the small rails because I believe they're just fine the way they are, no need for anything done to them, IMO.

Forges: I previously recommended a buff to forges, but some more experienced forge gunners I've talked to said that they were fine, so I'm going to leave that to a more knowledgeable forge user than I (I do like forging, it is fun).

Why does everyone think it's an accomplishment when they kill me? And I never mentioned the small rails because I believe they're just fine the way they are, no need for anything done to them, IMO.

Well, I'm looking at nerf this and that threads, and have honestly gotten sick of the tin foil hat suggestions, so here's my two cents. I'd like to start off the discussion with the ADS and its modules. This is here because I feel like it.

What are my credentials for recommending anything concerning this kind of balancing?

First: I'm a chrome vet. I was flying when blasters were awesome, and everyone preferred them over rockets. I was around when rockets were underrated, during the chrome build, I might add

Second: Quite a bit of experience flying in PC for various corps, and against various corps.

Third: Invested heavily into both armor and shield ADS. (at least 20 mil by now)

AB issue: I saw you didn't have a definitive number for the recharge rate of the AB's. I knew that the nerf was going to happen, and was honestly for it. Anyway, might I recommend a 15s to 20s recharge time? This would keep the module from becoming useless, but would also make it more imperative for pilots to skill into core grid management for ADS.

There was also something that Atiim recommended a while back concerning the recharge rates. Separating the recharge rates by tier. In order of MLT/STD/ADV/PRO the rates were 25/20/15/10. Keep in mind that the proto AB costs a lot of PG to fit, so most pilots would have to sacrifice some tank to fit this.

ADS Rate of Fire: I won't lie, I skilled my ROF to the max, and I like it, a lot. But I've been told it's a little high. The fair princess Zatata skyped me that it would be a little better if it was nerfed by 15%. I'd like to see the results of Delta before saying anything on that.

Incubus armor: I have a rail fit that I can with over 4000 armor, and a proto light repair, and I only had to skill level 3 into armor optimization. May want to look into that, CCP. (granted, I used a PG upgrade)

Now let's move on to the next order of business, taking out ADS and the methods to do so.

Ramming: I've got no sympathy for fellow pilots on this. Sorry, but if you don't watch what's happening around you, you need to get rammed. Besides, a rammer can only get you if you're hovering, being dumb, or blind luck.

Forges: I previously recommended a buff to forges, but some more experienced forge gunners I've talked to said that they were fine, so I'm going to leave that to a more knowledgeable forge user than I (I do like forging, it is fun).

Rail tanks: So I just got my proto rail tank, and I can two shot most ADS out of the sky, save for the Incubus armor stacked ones, but to be honest I'd say wait to see the results on the returning the rails to their proper damage profiles before doing anything.

PLC's: They hurt more than you think

Missile tanks: I am honestly amazed that so few people have ever thought of using this as a form of AA. If you've ever squadded with an ADS pilot pre-charlie, we would tell you the most annoying thing is being hit by those God forsaken installations in the redline. It was, in my opinion, THE most annoying thing in this game.

Installations: The buff they got I'm only sort of fine with, but the fact that people can camp them in their redline without even pushing is a little annoying, not usually lethal to me, but annoying nonetheless.

Swarms: I'm going to need a winter jacket because what I'm about to say I swore I'd never say unless hell froze over. The proposed changes to swarms, including the buff, I'm for (puts on coat).

I do, however, believe that either one of two things should be done: (I'm talking about acceleration)

1) Restrict this buff to ADV and PRO tier swarms, forcing a player skilling into AV more than "Hey! I got militia swarms! Let's shoot that thing!"

That, OR:

2) Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into.

Anyway, that's my two cents, apologies for taking so long, but I did put a song at the top to keep you from dying of boredom.

Your like the Tibs of ADS +1

you need to listen to this guy. he knows what's up.

Barely.

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but define barely.

Well, I'm looking at nerf this and that threads, and have honestly gotten sick of the tin foil hat suggestions, so here's my two cents. I'd like to start off the discussion with the ADS and its modules. This is here because I feel like it.

What are my credentials for recommending anything concerning this kind of balancing?

First: I'm a chrome vet. I was flying when blasters were awesome, and everyone preferred them over rockets. I was around when rockets were underrated, during the chrome build, I might add

Second: Quite a bit of experience flying in PC for various corps, and against various corps.

Third: Invested heavily into both armor and shield ADS. (at least 20 mil by now)

AB issue: I saw you didn't have a definitive number for the recharge rate of the AB's. I knew that the nerf was going to happen, and was honestly for it. Anyway, might I recommend a 15s to 20s recharge time? This would keep the module from becoming useless, but would also make it more imperative for pilots to skill into core grid management for ADS.

There was also something that Atiim recommended a while back concerning the recharge rates. Separating the recharge rates by tier. In order of MLT/STD/ADV/PRO the rates were 25/20/15/10. Keep in mind that the proto AB costs a lot of PG to fit, so most pilots would have to sacrifice some tank to fit this.

ADS Rate of Fire: I won't lie, I skilled my ROF to the max, and I like it, a lot. But I've been told it's a little high. The fair princess Zatata skyped me that it would be a little better if it was nerfed by 15%. I'd like to see the results of Delta before saying anything on that.

Incubus armor: I have a rail fit that I can with over 4000 armor, and a proto light repair, and I only had to skill level 3 into armor optimization. May want to look into that, CCP. (granted, I used a PG upgrade)

Now let's move on to the next order of business, taking out ADS and the methods to do so.

Ramming: I've got no sympathy for fellow pilots on this. Sorry, but if you don't watch what's happening around you, you need to get rammed. Besides, a rammer can only get you if you're hovering, being dumb, or blind luck. (that doesn't mean I don't absolutely hate it when it happens)

Forges: I previously recommended a buff to forges, but some more experienced forge gunners I've talked to said that they were fine, so I'm going to leave that to a more knowledgeable forge user than I (I do like forging, it is fun).
edit: With the recent splash being removed from the STD and Breach forges, perhaps reintroducing zoom for these forges could help.

Rail tanks: So I just got my proto rail tank, and I can two shot most ADS out of the sky, save for the Incubus armor stacked ones, but to be honest I'd say wait to see the results on the returning the rails to their proper damage profiles before doing anything.

PLC's: They hurt more than you think

Missile tanks: I am honestly amazed that so few people have ever thought of using this as a form of AA. If you've ever squadded with an ADS pilot pre-charlie, we would tell you the most annoying thing is being hit by those God forsaken installations in the redline. It was, in my opinion, THE most annoying thing in this game.

Installations: The buff they got I'm only sort of fine with, but the fact that people can camp them in their redline without even pushing is a little annoying, not usually lethal to me, but annoying nonetheless.

Swarms: I'm going to need a winter jacket because what I'm about to say I swore I'd never say unless hell froze over. The proposed changes to swarms, including the buff, I'm for (puts on coat).

I do, however, believe that either one of two things should be done: (I'm talking about acceleration)

1) Restrict this buff to ADV and PRO tier swarms, forcing a player skilling into AV more than "Hey! I got militia swarms! Let's shoot that thing!"

That, OR:

2) Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into.

Anyway, that's my two cents, apologies for taking so long, but I did put a song at the top to keep you from dying of boredom.

Regarding Forges, the only thing I would ever ask for is an increase in the max range.

Even if I am able to land 100% of my shots, all an ADS has to do is fly UP for a second or two and he or she is out of max range and completely safe from me. I'm all for maneuverability of the ADS as the challenge of hitting someone who knows how to dodge is fun.

What's NOT fun is someone activating their AB and flying to the ceiling and immediately becoming impervious to me. I have maxed out Forge skills and have been FGing for quite some time and this has always been my pet peeve. This wouldn't buff Forges in any way really as hitting long range shots does take a bit of skill and target tracking. The damage, charge time, etc. I think are all fine. Range is the biggest issue.

Either lower the flight ceiling on the maps or increase FG max range.

We will look at whether a more tiered progression is possible and feasible. But to be honest, it's the 3 dmg mod proto skill 5 AV that can take an ADS in three, the other ones need 4 and no ADS ever gets hit by 4, even with the buffs.

lol funk in FA

I just like bragging, but in all seriousness , with the projected nerf to small rails I wanted to express my concern about said nerf. I'm fine with a nerf where needed, however I don't like that the balancing point of small turrets is the ADs. LAVs and tanks are also affected by said changes so why should it balanced off of one medium that uses said weapon when3 different mediums are affected by it. It's like balancing the rifles off light wielding heavies.

I know that you didn't mention small turrets in general, but they should still be taken into account when talking about how things in vehicles should be balanced.

lol funk in FA

On another note, Rail Tanks suffer from this same issue. I'm fairly certain Judge was responsible for the most careless, dumbest "hotfix" I've seen (cutting Railgun range in half) because he was constantly whining about redline rail tanks.

Yes, they were an issue. Nerfing range is the dumbest way to go about it though. It makes ADSs completely invincible once they're a certain distance away. Instead of nerfing damage or fixing damage mod stacking they simply made rail bullets disappear after some pathetic range. No, they shouldn't be able to two shot an ADS from the redline but they should be able to at least deter them. There's nothing more frustrating than being outplayed because your Railgun or FG can't shoot farther than someone could kick a ball.

Awwwww, that's so SWEET!! *hugs*

Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into.

Honestly if that had implemented some sort of system like not awarding points for getting kills in the redline or whatever, it would at least heavily deter redline camping in pubs.

PC would be another issue of course since the inherent issue is the map layout and we know that won't ever get fixed. I just don't get it. Railguns are turrets that fire a kinetic projectile "in excess of 2,500 m/s" according to DUST and yet the projectile simply disappears after 300 meters. This means the so-called kinetic projectile exists for a total of 0.12 seconds before spontaneously combusting or crossing into another dimension or whatever.

Now, from a balance point I can understand something had to be done, but it was seriously like CCP was sitting around and went "Alright alright just cut the range in half so we can get that Judge guy to STFU".

Please, there is no AV gunner who only spends 1m sp to gun down your stupid dropships.

You skill hulls we skill dropsuits, you skill weapons we do too. You skill weapon upgrades so do we. You skill shields and modules we do too. You skill armor? Guess what? We do too.

I love how vehicle pilots look at the bare ass minimum skill level to get a weapon + the most minimal dropsuit platform without accounting for anything else, like how do I survive your spamming small missiles at me?

For every 10 million SP you put into your vehicles, one of ushas 10 mil SP into overall fittings intended to counter your toy.

Anything less fails so catastrophically that your comparison of balance smells of utter bullsh*t. Quit being disingenuous and use real numbers.

I love this response. It shows how much that breakin stuff relies on sp to 'git gud'.
Listen, i'm going to be recording dust, soon. I will bring you the heads of 5 ADSes on a new toon.
That is, the 150 points for Python or Incubus kill, without more than 1.2m sp.
You can expect this by the start (jan 1) of 2015