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On actually balancing ADS

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a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.09.13 22:08:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Well, I'm looking at nerf this and that threads, and have honestly gotten sick of the tin foil hat suggestions, so here's my two cents. I'd like to start off the discussion with the ADS and its modules. This is here because I feel like it. What are my credentials for recommending anything concerning this kind of balancing? First: I'm a chrome vet. I was flying when blasters were awesome, and everyone preferred them over rockets. I was around when rockets were underrated, during the chrome build, I might add Second: Quite a bit of experience flying in PC for various corps, and against various corps. Third: Invested heavily into both armor and shield ADS. (at least 20 mil by now) AB issue: I saw you didn't have a definitive number for the recharge rate of the AB's. I knew that the nerf was going to happen, and was honestly for it. Anyway, might I recommend a 15s to 20s recharge time? This would keep the module from becoming useless, but would also make it more imperative for pilots to skill into core grid management for ADS. There was also something that Atiim recommended a while back concerning the recharge rates. Separating the recharge rates by tier. In order of MLT/STD/ADV/PRO the rates were 25/20/15/10. Keep in mind that the proto AB costs a lot of PG to fit, so most pilots would have to sacrifice some tank to fit this. ADS Rate of Fire: I won't lie, I skilled my ROF to the max, and I like it, a lot. But I've been told it's a little high. The fair princess Zatata skyped me that it would be a little better if it was nerfed by 15%. I'd like to see the results of Delta before saying anything on that. Incubus armor: I have a rail fit that I can with over 4000 armor, and a proto light repair, and I only had to skill level 3 into armor optimization. May want to look into that, CCP. (granted, I used a PG upgrade) Now let's move on to the next order of business, taking out ADS and the methods to do so. Ramming: I've got no sympathy for fellow pilots on this. Sorry, but if you don't watch what's happening around you, you need to get rammed. Besides, a rammer can only get you if you're hovering, being dumb, or blind luck. (that doesn't mean I don't absolutely hate it when it happens) Forges: I previously recommended a buff to forges, but some more experienced forge gunners I've talked to said that they were fine, so I'm going to leave that to a more knowledgeable forge user than I (I do like forging, it is fun). edit: With the recent splash being removed from the STD and Breach forges, perhaps reintroducing zoom for these forges could help. Rail tanks: So I just got my proto rail tank, and I can two shot most ADS out of the sky, save for the Incubus armor stacked ones, but to be honest I'd say wait to see the results on the returning the rails to their proper damage profiles before doing anything. PLC's: They hurt more than you think Missile tanks: I am honestly amazed that so few people have ever thought of using this as a form of AA. If you've ever squadded with an ADS pilot pre-charlie, we would tell you the most annoying thing is being hit by those God forsaken installations in the redline. It was, in my opinion, THE most annoying thing in this game. Installations: The buff they got I'm only sort of fine with, but the fact that people can camp them in their redline without even pushing is a little annoying, not usually lethal to me, but annoying nonetheless. Swarms: I'm going to need a winter jacket because what I'm about to say I swore I'd never say unless hell froze over. The proposed changes to swarms, including the buff, I'm for (puts on coat). I do, however, believe that either one of two things should be done: (I'm talking about acceleration) 1) Restrict this buff to ADV and PRO tier swarms, forcing a player skilling into AV more than "Hey! I got militia swarms! Let's shoot that thing!" That, OR: 2) Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into. Anyway, that's my two cents, apologies for taking so long, but I did put a song at the top to keep you from dying of boredom. We will look at whether a more tiered progression is possible and feasible. But to be honest, it's the 3 dmg mod proto skill 5 AV that can take an ADS in three, the other ones need 4 and no ADS ever gets hit by 4, even with the buffs. I take it you haven't tried being a pilot. We're fairly likely to have four swarms before we're out of the 175m lock on range. Most only survive due to rushing to 400m. Also, you want us to be a hit and run weapon so you reduce our ability to run. Also when has any dropship ever been up against only one av guy. To get in and out we need to fly low. That almost invariably results in a turret targeting us for the next 30 seconds whatever range, with completly perfect accuracy. Also you try most matches, almost invariably 3-4 enemies will start just with the hope that our team calls in some vehicles. Also the second I kill anyone they will turn av, and even two mlt suits are capable of bringing me down easier than one full pro your taking about. Average fire height is about 50m to have a reasonably high chance of killing the enemies. Your telling me I can have the reaction speed to realise I've been hit, activate my am before a single lock on time (there's no way of telling you are being shot at until you are hit) before I reach 175m. Once each swarmer has fired 2 swarms I'm effectively dead as four are in the air and there is no out running. You are now saying I'm only allowed two kills before my 300k (min survivable) ads (after cost reductions) Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Shadow of War88 0uter.Heaven 451	Posted - 2014.09.14 00:38:00 - [32] - Quote lol funk in FA & justice for all
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2610	Posted - 2014.09.14 01:24:00 - [33] - Quote Shadow of War88 wrote: lol funk in FA but whales are life!! The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Zindorak 1.U.P 905	Posted - 2014.09.14 01:30:00 - [34] - Quote Also add a CPU and PG boosting skill as the Python and Incubus are the only ADS and they can't really get any better in terms of fitting space Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
The True Inferno Myrmidon Syndicate 57	Posted - 2014.09.14 01:37:00 - [35] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: You forgot small railguns on LAVs. They're deadly as f**k, trust me I took the OP's Python out with one... Why does everyone think it's an accomplishment when they kill me? And I never mentioned the small rails because I believe they're just fine the way they are, no need for anything done to them, IMO. I just like bragging, but in all seriousness , with the projected nerf to small rails I wanted to express my concern about said nerf. I'm fine with a nerf where needed, however I don't like that the balancing point of small turrets is the ADs. LAVs and tanks are also affected by said changes so why should it balanced off of one medium that uses said weapon when3 different mediums are affected by it. It's like balancing the rifles off light wielding heavies. I know that you didn't mention small turrets in general, but they should still be taken into account when talking about how things in vehicles should be balanced. I am pretty sure that this nerf is happening because of the changes with the efficiencies, as both the small and large railgun have incorrect efficiencies and are more effective againest shield than armor and are only half as effective on tanks, though as they are rail guns it should be the other way around. They should have a -10% againest shield and +10% againest armor. ScP = GÖÑ If you like chiptune An Ace Pilot
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.09.14 18:13:00 - [36] - Quote Shadow of War88 wrote: lol funk in FA You still brown-nosing Rei? Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2613	Posted - 2014.09.14 20:00:00 - [37] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: On another note, Rail Tanks suffer from this same issue. I'm fairly certain Judge was responsible for the most careless, dumbest "hotfix" I've seen (cutting Railgun range in half) because he was constantly whining about redline rail tanks. Yes, they were an issue. Nerfing range is the dumbest way to go about it though. It makes ADSs completely invincible once they're a certain distance away. Instead of nerfing damage or fixing damage mod stacking they simply made rail bullets disappear after some pathetic range. No, they shouldn't be able to two shot an ADS from the redline but they should be able to at least deter them. There's nothing more frustrating than being outplayed because your Railgun or FG can't shoot farther than someone could kick a ball. Valid points, most of them. TBH, I'm not sure what to do with the rail tanks, as buffing their range is a little risky as most of the map layouts support redline tanking. There is good cover on most maps in red zone, and I have a rail tank myself, if given a range buff I would sit in the red blapping ADS from the redline, I am a very territorial pilot (probably why I don't hang with any 1st airborne guys, no offense). But anyway, back to the matter of rails. As it stands, in certain maps on PC, mainly the bridge, the rail tank can sit in a certain area in their redlines and effectively cover 2 objectives from ADS by simply camping that area, but on the minus end, all I'd have to do is get out of his effective field of range by moving 2 inches to the left (say he can watch D and A points, all I'd have to do is move to E). There is, understandably, the issue where most pilots hit the AB straight to the flight ceiling. My possible solution is to increase vertical turning speed and max elevation of the rails, but to be honest, I'm unsure of how this will play out, it just seems like the best option without giving it a range buff, which if it was absolutely needed, I think anything over 80 meters would be a bit much. Phew, I get long winded on this crap, sorry. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Zindorak 1.U.P 906	Posted - 2014.09.14 21:17:00 - [38] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Zindorak wrote: Your like the Tibs of ADS +1 Awwwww, that's so SWEET!! hugs hugs back Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.09.14 21:27:00 - [39] - Quote Honestly if that had implemented some sort of system like not awarding points for getting kills in the redline or whatever, it would at least heavily deter redline camping in pubs. PC would be another issue of course since the inherent issue is the map layout and we know that won't ever get fixed. I just don't get it. Railguns are turrets that fire a kinetic projectile "in excess of 2,500 m/s" according to DUST and yet the projectile simply disappears after 300 meters. This means the so-called kinetic projectile exists for a total of 0.12 seconds before spontaneously combusting or crossing into another dimension or whatever. Now, from a balance point I can understand something had to be done, but it was seriously like CCP was sitting around and went "Alright alright just cut the range in half so we can get that Judge guy to STFU". Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1735	Posted - 2014.09.14 21:43:00 - [40] - Quote For the record, judge did not request the range be cut in half. He requested a 25% reduction in range (for a total of 450m range) and that elevation be reduced. As far as balance of railsvs drop ships, I think I agree with judge's idea, but I would also have the top turret be able to look up higher, so a gunner can deter a drop ship better. Shoot Scout with yes.

TEC N9ne Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1	Posted - 2014.09.24 12:13:00 - [41] - Quote Honestly, you are talking about triple damage mods being the only ones that cause enough problems for dropships, what about my min commando? With my prof up, double damage mods and my suit done it's honestly fairly easy to AV and with the proposed acceleration to my swarms I do have to say I would be in favor of making it a skill, make me throw more sp into it, where I actually have to skill more into to cause havoc on pilots. I really do feel for pilots because the amount it requires for me to skill into my fit as opposed to the pilots in their ADS skills is such a huge contrast. It would be fair if I had to work more for an effective AV fit. Sorry for bugging everyone with reading this small comment but I just had to say I agree with either one of his proposed ideas on swarms What up all
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4333	Posted - 2014.09.24 14:37:00 - [42] - Quote The OP sets a much more productive tone than I have seen in a lot of ADS posts recently. Derrith Erador wrote: Introduce a skill that increases acceleration of swarms. I see no reason why AV shouldn't have to skill more SP to get more benefits. Currently all you have to do is get a proto suit, proto swarms, damage mods and possibly reload speed. ADS have far more complex skills to go into. I like this suggestion. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4334	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:06:00 - [43] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Honestly if that had implemented some sort of system like not awarding points for getting kills in the redline or whatever, it would at least heavily deter redline camping in pubs. PC would be another issue of course since the inherent issue is the map layout and we know that won't ever get fixed. I just don't get it. Railguns are turrets that fire a kinetic projectile "in excess of 2,500 m/s" according to DUST and yet the projectile simply disappears after 300 meters. This means the so-called kinetic projectile exists for a total of 0.12 seconds before spontaneously combusting or crossing into another dimension or whatever. Now, from a balance point I can understand something had to be done, but it was seriously like CCP was sitting around and went "Alright alright just cut the range in half so we can get that Judge guy to STFU". I was running Rail Tanks when the range nerf hit. I found that dropping the range of Large Rail Turrets to 300m made Rail Tank vs Rail Tank battles a lot more fun and engaging. Rather than having the slugs disappear after 300m it might be more realistic to have gravity take over and have their trajectory dip dramatically beyond 300m, so that hitting anything over 300m would require vertical compensation for shell drop. But I am not sure if DUST has mechanics to allow that. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
emm kay G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 203	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:23:00 - [44] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Please, there is no AV gunner who only spends 1m sp to gun down your stupid dropships. You skill hulls we skill dropsuits, you skill weapons we do too. You skill weapon upgrades so do we. You skill shields and modules we do too. You skill armor? Guess what? We do too. I love how vehicle pilots look at the bare ass minimum skill level to get a weapon + the most minimal dropsuit platform without accounting for anything else, like how do I survive your spamming small missiles at me? For every 10 million SP you put into your vehicles, one of ushas 10 mil SP into overall fittings intended to counter your toy. Anything less fails so catastrophically that your comparison of balance smells of utter bullsh*t. Quit being disingenuous and use real numbers. I love this response. It shows how much that breakin stuff relies on sp to 'git gud'. Listen, i'm going to be recording dust, soon. I will bring you the heads of 5 ADSes on a new toon. That is, the 150 points for Python or Incubus kill, without more than 1.2m sp. You can expect this by the start (jan 1) of 2015 -- You called, sir?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3126	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:05:00 - [45] - Quote emm kay wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Please, there is no AV gunner who only spends 1m sp to gun down your stupid dropships. You skill hulls we skill dropsuits, you skill weapons we do too. You skill weapon upgrades so do we. You skill shields and modules we do too. You skill armor? Guess what? We do too. I love how vehicle pilots look at the bare ass minimum skill level to get a weapon + the most minimal dropsuit platform without accounting for anything else, like how do I survive your spamming small missiles at me? For every 10 million SP you put into your vehicles, one of ushas 10 mil SP into overall fittings intended to counter your toy. Anything less fails so catastrophically that your comparison of balance smells of utter bullsh*t. Quit being disingenuous and use real numbers. I love this response. It shows how much that breakin stuff relies on sp to 'git gud'. Listen, i'm going to be recording dust, soon. I will bring you the heads of 5 ADSes on a new toon. That is, the 150 points for Python or Incubus kill, without more than 1.2m sp. You can expect this by the start (jan 1) of 2015 Oh no nerd. If you're claiming it's easy you have until the end of October. Giving yourself a quarter of a year doesn't cut it. It's either easy or it's not. But you don't get to set yourself a stretch goal that long. a blind baby can kill anything in this game 5 tiumes getting lucky. if you only need 1.2 mil, you have to complete before you achieve 1.5 mil. And no, you are not allowed assistance. I solo the bastards, you have to as well.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1748	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:18:00 - [46] - Quote I have to say, that is the most well thought out post on ADS that I think I have read on the forums. My only bone of contention is the RoF changes but like the good person said (The OP) lets see what happens. I will say, I dont advise giving forges zoom. I mean I would LOVE zoom! But I do feel that might be a little op for forge sniping. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!


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