1. Rails - You played too much PC since you describe a gunlogi with 4400 armor and thats because the tank is used for 2 damage mods and a nitro, old vehicle days dmg mods were passive low slots so it was glass armor and not shield - Because of the change its why you see the gunlogi this way but only in PC generally, you could do the same on the maddy but you are gimped on PCU

2. FG already the go 2 weapon for ADS, its a 110%/90% split with doing more to armor, so with current damage profiles of prof shield gets off lightly but damage mods buff the damage overall by x amount so maybe it balance itself out

3. Rail incubus > everything else vehicle wise at least

4. Range amp? Is this a new module for vehicles, i know i havnt played in a bit but as far as i remember for low slots its CPU/PG/armor/armor hardner/plate and thats it

5. Pretty much spot on

I'm level 3 with the bus RoF bonus... and it wrecks any shields, the militia variant can bone most shield based vehicles with little or no armour rep... vs armour with tons of rep it does litterally nothing... I would suggest lower damage to shields increase maybe a bit to armour, but not much.

1) That is interesting. I probably should've asked a PC tanker for their two cents on this, but with the number of tank QQ threads I've seen, you'll forgive me if I don't go to the first tanker I see and ask his opinion on it. It doesn't really change my argument on it, however, I still think that a shield based tank should not have more armor than shields.

3) A fun tip that I may have left out for engaging rail incubus. Most novice pilots make the mistake of flying straight to the redline when one of these guys is on you, flying straight above them and staying above seems to work best. It all comes down to catching him off guard.

4) No, they're an infantry module on the low slot. I use it on my flying suit, works wonders when trying to find swarms and forges, along with those pesky rammers. This one module has save my bacon more times than XXwarlord97xX.

All I have to say: this is what happens when CCP listens to its community.
CCP knew ADSs would cause issues with game balance, and they wanted to remove them with the rest of the vehicle variants.
The community bitched about it, so CCP kept them in game.
Lo and behold, the ADS is still ******* up game balance.

You forgot the Plasma Cannon.

I took down a Python with it, you know.

So you whining about it instead of offering a solution is going to help?

I'm saying CCP should go ahead and remove assault dropships like they wanted to in the first place.

They aren't consistent enough with the rest of the game to balance properly.

1. I agree with shield tank should have shield but in PC its the opposite and its whatever gets rid of the other tank quickest atm which leads to crap tank battles

3. It can do but if that rail gets a shot it can fire a lot of shots very quickly which will hit instantly and go through shield where as a python pilot has missiles with travel time and also require the leading of shots so the incubus is well made for taking out vehicles and frankly its hard to do so as a python because the incubus can also hit you too

4. Ah right

Do the dropsuit scan modules work while in a vehicle? I didn't know that.

Wow, I was going to make a forum post saying the exact same things about using the swarm launcher.

Seriously, they ALWAYS stay in the same place they fire from, or hang around their hives like moths to a lamp. Even when I'm looking right at them they insist on getting the last volley off like it will do something.

I've recently picked up my swarm again and have been having decent success with it. Perhaps we pilots should pick up AV and show them how it's done.

Edit: I still think the Python needs that 500hp buff to keep it in line with the Incubus defense-wise. The gap it too far between and it will still be balanced if you ask me.

It probably had no HP left and was continuing to fly at a snail's pace.

I've been watching from the sidelines on this whole forum war on ADS vs, well everything. I've seen a lot of tin foil hat moments for both sides. I personally am not in favor of touching the ADS at all, many experienced pilots I've talked to are also agreeing with me on this (except for maybe pythons collision damage, fix this CCP).

Anyway, let's get to the main forms of AV we have out on the field, and what I think should be done. I'll be getting to swarms last as I have the most to say about them.

Rail tanks

Let's start off with rail tanks. First off, I feel your pain, I don't like the way you shout constantly over this and that, but I see where you're coming from. I've done the math on my ADS fit, and a triple damage modded rail takes about 2 shots to kill me, three if I can get my shield booster on in time. I do honestly think that rail tanks got screwed with the nerf they recieved, and I honestly think a 5% damage buff to rails (math could be off) would be enough for them to two shot any python worth a crap out of the sky. But an additional problem lies in this formula meant to take out derps, the fact that tankers can run this fit, and also have 4400 armor on a gunnlogi. Pardon me if I don't see why a tank that is more than likely in the red line than anywhere else strategic should have that much armor, that just encourages camping in the red, and it would take a fit exactly like the redline fit to fish you out. My proposal is to buff the PG of damage mods to where this fit can still be achieved, but at cost to your total armor, so people cant just sit in the red and farm WP and be nigh invincible. (not sure the exact numbers to PG upgrades)

Forge guns

Aside from being a pilot, I also like to forge quite a bit. Forge guns take quite a bit of skill to shoot down pilots and the like, but it's just not enough, even with it in the hands of a good forger. My proposal is to make the proficiencies on the forge a flat damage buff, but that would be rather OP in my opinion if it was at its 3% per level, so I'd say make it a 2% per damage on the forge gun. People would argue to use a PLC if you want to take out a python, but that is a tin foil hat argument.

Rail Incubus

On top of Pythons, I also fly these. Those who complain about it probably don't have the levels needed to take out a python or Incubus. I think they're working as intended, in the right hands they can prove quite deadly to us, you probably just haven't devoted enough time towards the incubus. There is the glitch where our rails don't shoot, or magically drain our clip for some ungodly reason, but that's a glitch, that's nobodies fault.

Ramming

To the pilots out there, there is a module you can fit on your low slots called a range amplifier, it works, trust me.

I think that's all of them, aside from the swarms, which I will now discuss.

Swarm launchers

I fail to see why you guys want a buff, you already got the buff of minus extra swarms with comparable damage, the extra two missiles hurt you as you had to wait 1/3 longer to lock on to your target. And what did you sacrifice for it? I just did the math on a double damage modded Minmando pre-charlie, and post-charlie. I assumed that the stacking penalty is affected per tier, so 5% would be 4% pre-charlie. You lost 34 damage...

Now onto my next point, why should a weapon that is fire and forget, can curve around buildings, and follow my flight pattern almost exactly unless I do some serious Yoda crap be buffed?

A lot of swarmers will say such things that will try to prove it takes skill to fire a swarm. The only three notable points I've ever noticed is:

1) It's about positioning
2) We have to remain undetected or we're dead.
3) You also have to deal with other infantry, and you're nearly unable to defend yourself

First off, all weapons are about positioning. You wouldn't ask someone with a rail rifle to take on an HMG in CQC and win, assuming they have equal skill in their fields.

Another problem I've noticed that works in debunking points one and two is a behavior I've noticed in all swarmers, Never seen an exception to this. I've flown in hundreds of PC's, pubs and FW's alike. The problem with this is that all swarmers tend to camp a single area, with no regard to stealth whatsoever. And all I have to do to find a swarm is to find his hive, it is almost always a guarantee that he/she is no less than 30 meters away from it.

On the remaining undetected issue, I believe a Ludacris song will explain my feelings on this. Swarms launch a volley with a smoke trail, making it easy to find you, wouldn't it make sense to get the hell out of there, and strike from a different angle?

on fighting infantry and being nigh defenseless. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? If you're that concerned about it, bring a friend.

Anyway, that's my two cents on that, sorry if I took too much time on the soap box.

Swarms are pretty solidly inferior to every other weapon in the game. Particularly when you consider than yes, while swarms arc around buildings, they also hit those buildings more often than not, and that forge gunners can near insta-hit you with ease. Additionally, when you consider the fact that swarms are the only weapon in the game that can't fire at infantry, and also happens to suck at AV, you wonder why they exist at all.

I've been watching from the sidelines on this whole forum war on ADS vs, well everything. I've seen a lot of tin foil hat moments for both sides. I personally am not in favor of touching the ADS at all, many experienced pilots I've talked to are also agreeing with me on this (except for maybe pythons collision damage, fix this CCP).

Anyway, let's get to the main forms of AV we have out on the field, and what I think should be done. I'll be getting to swarms last as I have the most to say about them.

Rail tanks

Let's start off with rail tanks. First off, I feel your pain, I don't like the way you shout constantly over this and that, but I see where you're coming from. I've done the math on my ADS fit, and a triple damage modded rail takes about 2 shots to kill me, three if I can get my shield booster on in time. I do honestly think that rail tanks got screwed with the nerf they recieved, and I honestly think a 5% damage buff to rails (math could be off) would be enough for them to two shot any python worth a crap out of the sky. But an additional problem lies in this formula meant to take out derps, the fact that tankers can run this fit, and also have 4400 armor on a gunnlogi. Pardon me if I don't see why a tank that is more than likely in the red line than anywhere else strategic should have that much armor, that just encourages camping in the red, and it would take a fit exactly like the redline fit to fish you out. My proposal is to buff the PG of damage mods to where this fit can still be achieved, but at cost to your total armor, so people cant just sit in the red and farm WP and be nigh invincible. (not sure the exact numbers to PG upgrades)

Forge guns

Aside from being a pilot, I also like to forge quite a bit. Forge guns take quite a bit of skill to shoot down pilots and the like, but it's just not enough, even with it in the hands of a good forger. My proposal is to make the proficiencies on the forge a flat damage buff, but that would be rather OP in my opinion if it was at its 3% per level, so I'd say make it a 2% per damage on the forge gun. People would argue to use a PLC if you want to take out a python, but that is a tin foil hat argument.

Rail Incubus

On top of Pythons, I also fly these. Those who complain about it probably don't have the levels needed to take out a python or Incubus. I think they're working as intended, in the right hands they can prove quite deadly to us, you probably just haven't devoted enough time towards the incubus. There is the glitch where our rails don't shoot, or magically drain our clip for some ungodly reason, but that's a glitch, that's nobodies fault.

Ramming

To the pilots out there, there is a module you can fit on your low slots called a range amplifier, it works, trust me.

I think that's all of them, aside from the swarms, which I will now discuss.

Swarm launchers

I fail to see why you guys want a buff, you already got the buff of minus extra swarms with comparable damage, the extra two missiles hurt you as you had to wait 1/3 longer to lock on to your target. And what did you sacrifice for it? I just did the math on a double damage modded Minmando pre-charlie, and post-charlie. I assumed that the stacking penalty is affected per tier, so 5% would be 4% pre-charlie. You lost 34 damage...

Now onto my next point, why should a weapon that is fire and forget, can curve around buildings, and follow my flight pattern almost exactly unless I do some serious Yoda crap be buffed?

A lot of swarmers will say such things that will try to prove it takes skill to fire a swarm. The only three notable points I've ever noticed is:

1) It's about positioning
2) We have to remain undetected or we're dead.
3) You also have to deal with other infantry, and you're nearly unable to defend yourself

First off, all weapons are about positioning. You wouldn't ask someone with a rail rifle to take on an HMG in CQC and win, assuming they have equal skill in their fields.

Another problem I've noticed that works in debunking points one and two is a behavior I've noticed in all swarmers, Never seen an exception to this. I've flown in hundreds of PC's, pubs and FW's alike. The problem with this is that all swarmers tend to camp a single area, with no regard to stealth whatsoever. And all I have to do to find a swarm is to find his hive, it is almost always a guarantee that he/she is no less than 30 meters away from it.

On the remaining undetected issue, I believe a Ludacris song will explain my feelings on this. Swarms launch a volley with a smoke trail, making it easy to find you, wouldn't it make sense to get the hell out of there, and strike from a different angle?

on fighting infantry and being nigh defenseless. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? If you're that concerned about it, bring a friend.

Anyway, that's my two cents on that, sorry if I took too much time on the soap box.

Much simpler would be to tweak afterburners; there's nothing more annoying than facing a dropship (particularly the Incubus) that not only has more HP than a tank, but the ability to dart out of danger at a moment's notice.

@ action: I've used the range amp, it works fine for me. And if you're so certain that I've never flown before, ask me a derp question that is at least chrome build and beyond. I was flying when damage mods were passive, when blaster turrets were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and during that era ironically, rockets were very underrated, as rockets in that day were still awesome. I was around when rockets didn't count as explosive damage, and you could still be revived after being shot by it. Long story short, range amps work for me, I guess they don't work for you. If that's how you roll, fine.

@ massive, I thank you for the compliment. You're a pretty scary forger yourself. But in truth, there are pilots out there that can probably do the things I do better than I can. heck, I've even been trying to teach some people to fly recently, and to be honest, I don't think that good of a job, not a bad job mind you, but I could do better.

@ that one kitty: Show me an ADS pilot that flies in a straight line to avoid swarms. I never said that this should be a good way to dodge them, in fact, any pilot that does that deserves to die.

@ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget.

Range amps arent for dropships.

@ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget.

124 Kills.
You'd think a "purely AV weapon" would be better at AV. No?

Swarm performance is abysmal, even when the very best of us give it our all.

I thoroughly enjoy seeing ADS pilots post as if surviving AV is difficult.

Getting a good laugh once in a while is very good for the mind, and soul.

Swarm launchers

I fail to see why you guys want a buff, you already got the buff of minus extra swarms with comparable damage, the extra two missiles hurt you as you had to wait 1/3 longer to lock on to your target. And what did you sacrifice for it? I just did the math on a double damage modded Minmando pre-charlie, and post-charlie. I assumed that the stacking penalty is affected per tier, so 5% would be 4% pre-charlie. You lost 34 damage...

A lot of swarmers will say such things that will try to prove it takes skill to fire a swarm. The only three notable points I've ever noticed is:

1) It's about positioning
2) We have to remain undetected or we're dead.
3) You also have to deal with other infantry, and you're nearly unable to defend yourself

First off, all weapons are about positioning. You wouldn't ask someone with a rail rifle to take on an HMG in CQC and win, assuming they have equal skill in their fields.

All weapons includes the Swarm Launcher. You've literally admitted that the Swarm Launcher does require at least one skill to operate effectively, making your entire argument null. However I'll address the other points anyways.

Another problem I've noticed that works in debunking points one and two is a behavior I've noticed in all swarmers, Never seen an exception to this. I've flown in hundreds of PC's, pubs and FW's alike.

This is a Toup+¬e Fallacy. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. For example, I'm sure there are plenty of players who've never seen the "Giant GEK of Doom", but you and I both know that it's happened before.

The problem with this is that all swarmers tend to camp a single area, with no regard to stealth whatsoever. And all I have to do to find a swarm is to find his hive, it is almost always a guarantee that he/she is no less than 30 meters away from it.

And this, is an Association Fallacy. You haven't played with or against every single Swarm Launcher user in DUST 514, so you cannot make a valid claim that's all-inclusive.

On the remaining undetected issue, I believe a Ludacris song will explain my feelings on this. Swarms launch a volley with a smoke trail, making it easy to find you, wouldn't it make sense to get the hell out of there, and strike from a different angle?

That's what your supposed to do. I've yet to see any complaining about it, so I fail to see why you've mentioned it. Though using hit-and-run tactics does require a multitude of skills (stealth, situational awareness, etc, etc,) so once again you've nullified your argument.

on fighting infantry and being nigh defenseless. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? If you're that concerned about it, bring a friend.

Or just use a Commando. Though you shouldn't have to field 200% of the resources that the enemy fielded, especially with a weapon as lolworthy against ADSs as the SL.

If 1x = 2y, why would I use anything but Y?

Not when it fires and practically aims for you, no. Also the fact that it curves around buildings following our flight pattern almost perfectly, and that I have yet to see a swarm user who doesn't camp a single area hoping I'll go looking for him. I admit, I do.

But I think the matter here is that no matter what you or I say to convince each other of our arguments, we're not going to agree with each other. I think it's a fire and forget weapon that noob tube users want to spam like it's ham on Christmas (that was a terrible analogy), you... I'm not sure what you think, but it clearly doesn't fall in tandem with what I think.

If 1x = 2y, why would I use anything but Y?[/i]

I use them on my Amarr logi. Which is my main pilot suit. I thought that would've been common sense, you and Takahiro got it wrong too. My mistake.

Wait...... why wouldn't you want to use X? If you only need one of them to = 2y....... wouldn't it be all round simpler and generally more efficient to pick X?

Swarms are pretty solidly inferior to every other weapon in the game. Particularly when you consider than yes, while swarms arc around buildings, they also hit those buildings more often than not, and that forge gunners can near insta-hit you with ease. Additionally, when you consider the fact that swarms are the only weapon in the game that can't fire at infantry, and also happens to suck at AV, you wonder why they exist at all.

124 Kills. You'd think a "purely AV weapon" would be better at killing vehicles. No?
Swarm performance is abysmal, even when the very best of us give it our all.

Pray tell, Taki:
What other statistics are available for our reference?

Some statistics I'd be interested in seeing ...

# of ADS wrecked by Swarms alone
# of Swarmers killed by ADS

Total value of ADS killed by infantry
Total value of all infantry killed by ADS

Go ask ccp but a kill implies the player died and with a swarm launcher the only way it kills is if the player stays inside the vehicle or is next to it with low enough health since you cant target infantry

Fun as they'd be to discuss, those statistics won't be made available to we plebes. What is readily available (in addition to the expert challenge results) is the demeanor of pilots as it relates to this supposed counter ...

Following 1.7, most pilots -- yourself included -- expressed approval with the state of swarms.
They insisted that Swarms were fine.
They insisted that swarmers were doing it wrong.
They insisted that no improvements be made to Swarms.

Today, most pilots -- yourself included -- express approval with the state of swarms.
They insist that Swarms are fine.
They insist that swarmers are doing it wrong.
They insist that no improvements be made to Swarms.

What -- if anything -- does pilot demeanor tell is about the state of swarms?

Excuses
Excuses
Excuses

Vehicles arent consistent enough now

Collision damage is my biggest concern. That's one issue that hasn't been given a thought by CCP. Yes, ADS are faster but simply love-tapping a Python with a MLT dropship and making it go boom is non negotiable. Needs fix! Delta?

XT-1 Missiles have a base of 500 HP worth of Splash Damage.

That's why ADSs are OP as hell.

*358 splash, and that isn't putting into account the damage buff skill we get.

358+ 35= 393 is our max splash raw, if your concern is that it may be possible to reach nearly 500 splash damage, use shields.

As for the Swarm vs Afterburner argument.
Both sides have perfectly valid points which the other can only reply with 'tin foil hats' or whining.

I think it's perfectly fair, that a dropship shouldn't be capable of staight up out running a swarm volley, especially if said volley is launched less than 50m from you, or is already in the air. Too many times can pilots just outrun the 2 volleys in the air, of which only 1 is required, that is simply not fair, I have outmanoeuvred and outclassed that pilot, he should be laid to rites. But he isn't as such I believe a Swarm Launcher speed buff and/or an afterburner nerf is entirely justified.

Secondly I think the current tracking ability of swarms is absurd, no matter what you do you simply can't outmanoeuvre them, it would bring more skill to both roles, if the swarm launcher can be dodged. As such I believe a turning circle nerf is also perfectly justified.

I wasnt aware dropsuit mods applied to vehicles.Can i get a dev to confirm this

All I have to say: this is what happens when CCP listens to its community.
CCP knew ADSs would cause issues with game balance, and they wanted to remove them with the rest of the vehicle variants.
The community bitched about it, so CCP kept them in game.
Lo and behold, the ADS is still ******* up game balance.

XT-1 Missiles have a base of 500 HP worth of Splash Damage.

That's why ADSs are OP as hell.