DUST Search - On the ADS vs AV forum war

ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:

Derrith Erador wrote:

@ action: I've used the range amp, it works fine for me. And if you're so certain that I've never flown before, ask me a derp question that is at least chrome build and beyond. I was flying when damage mods were passive, when blaster turrets were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and during that era ironically, rockets were very underrated, as rockets in that day were still awesome. I was around when rockets didn't count as explosive damage, and you could still be revived after being shot by it. Long story short, range amps work for me, I guess they don't work for you. If that's how you roll, fine.

@ massive, I thank you for the compliment. You're a pretty scary forger yourself. But in truth, there are pilots out there that can probably do the things I do better than I can. heck, I've even been trying to teach some people to fly recently, and to be honest, I don't think that good of a job, not a bad job mind you, but I could do better.

@ that one kitty: Show me an ADS pilot that flies in a straight line to avoid swarms. I never said that this should be a good way to dodge them, in fact, any pilot that does that deserves to die.

@ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget.

Range amps arent for dropships.

I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.


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Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2451	Posted - 2014.08.21 13:37:00 - [1] - Quote I've been watching from the sidelines on this whole forum war on ADS vs, well everything. I've seen a lot of tin foil hat moments for both sides. I personally am not in favor of touching the ADS at all, many experienced pilots I've talked to are also agreeing with me on this (except for maybe pythons collision damage, fix this CCP). Anyway, let's get to the main forms of AV we have out on the field, and what I think should be done. I'll be getting to swarms last as I have the most to say about them. Rail tanks Let's start off with rail tanks. First off, I feel your pain, I don't like the way you shout constantly over this and that, but I see where you're coming from. I've done the math on my ADS fit, and a triple damage modded rail takes about 2 shots to kill me, three if I can get my shield booster on in time. I do honestly think that rail tanks got screwed with the nerf they recieved, and I honestly think a 5% damage buff to rails (math could be off) would be enough for them to two shot any python worth a crap out of the sky. But an additional problem lies in this formula meant to take out derps, the fact that tankers can run this fit, and also have 4400 armor on a gunnlogi. Pardon me if I don't see why a tank that is more than likely in the red line than anywhere else strategic should have that much armor, that just encourages camping in the red, and it would take a fit exactly like the redline fit to fish you out. My proposal is to buff the PG of damage mods to where this fit can still be achieved, but at cost to your total armor, so people cant just sit in the red and farm WP and be nigh invincible. (not sure the exact numbers to PG upgrades) Forge guns Aside from being a pilot, I also like to forge quite a bit. Forge guns take quite a bit of skill to shoot down pilots and the like, but it's just not enough, even with it in the hands of a good forger. My proposal is to make the proficiencies on the forge a flat damage buff, but that would be rather OP in my opinion if it was at its 3% per level, so I'd say make it a 2% per damage on the forge gun. People would argue to use a PLC if you want to take out a python, but that is a tin foil hat argument. Rail Incubus On top of Pythons, I also fly these. Those who complain about it probably don't have the levels needed to take out a python or Incubus. I think they're working as intended, in the right hands they can prove quite deadly to us, you probably just haven't devoted enough time towards the incubus. There is the glitch where our rails don't shoot, or magically drain our clip for some ungodly reason, but that's a glitch, that's nobodies fault. Ramming To the pilots out there, there is a module you can fit on your low slots called a range amplifier, it works, trust me. I think that's all of them, aside from the swarms, which I will now discuss. Swarm launchers I fail to see why you guys want a buff, you already got the buff of minus extra swarms with comparable damage, the extra two missiles hurt you as you had to wait 1/3 longer to lock on to your target. And what did you sacrifice for it? I just did the math on a double damage modded Minmando pre-charlie, and post-charlie. I assumed that the stacking penalty is affected per tier, so 5% would be 4% pre-charlie. You lost 34 damage... Now onto my next point, why should a weapon that is fire and forget, can curve around buildings, and follow my flight pattern almost exactly unless I do some serious Yoda crap be buffed? A lot of swarmers will say such things that will try to prove it takes skill to fire a swarm. The only three notable points I've ever noticed is: 1) It's about positioning 2) We have to remain undetected or we're dead. 3) You also have to deal with other infantry, and you're nearly unable to defend yourself First off, all weapons are about positioning. You wouldn't ask someone with a rail rifle to take on an HMG in CQC and win, assuming they have equal skill in their fields. Another problem I've noticed that works in debunking points one and two is a behavior I've noticed in all swarmers, Never seen an exception to this. I've flown in hundreds of PC's, pubs and FW's alike. The problem with this is that all swarmers tend to camp a single area, with no regard to stealth whatsoever. And all I have to do to find a swarm is to find his hive, it is almost always a guarantee that he/she is no less than 30 meters away from it. On the remaining undetected issue, I believe a Ludacris song will explain my feelings on this. Swarms launch a volley with a smoke trail, making it easy to find you, wouldn't it make sense to get the hell out of there, and strike from a different angle? Anyway, that's my two cents on that, sorry if I took too much time on the soap box. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2451	Posted - 2014.08.21 14:17:00 - [2] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 1. Rails - You played too much PC since you describe a gunlogi with 4400 armor and thats because the tank is used for 2 damage mods and a nitro, old vehicle days dmg mods were passive low slots so it was glass armor and not shield - Because of the change its why you see the gunlogi this way but only in PC generally, you could do the same on the maddy but you are gimped on PCU 2. FG already the go 2 weapon for ADS, its a 110%/90% split with doing more to armor, so with current damage profiles of prof shield gets off lightly but damage mods buff the damage overall by x amount so maybe it balance itself out 3. Rail incubus > everything else vehicle wise at least 4. Range amp? Is this a new module for vehicles, i know i havnt played in a bit but as far as i remember for low slots its CPU/PG/armor/armor hardner/plate and thats it 5. Pretty much spot on 1) That is interesting. I probably should've asked a PC tanker for their two cents on this, but with the number of tank QQ threads I've seen, you'll forgive me if I don't go to the first tanker I see and ask his opinion on it. It doesn't really change my argument on it, however, I still think that a shield based tank should not have more armor than shields. 3) A fun tip that I may have left out for engaging rail incubus. Most novice pilots make the mistake of flying straight to the redline when one of these guys is on you, flying straight above them and staying above seems to work best. It all comes down to catching him off guard. 4) No, they're an infantry module on the low slot. I use it on my flying suit, works wonders when trying to find swarms and forges, along with those pesky rammers. This one module has save my bacon more times than XXwarlord97xX. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2451	Posted - 2014.08.21 14:18:00 - [3] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: I'm level 3 with the bus RoF bonus... and it wrecks any shields, the militia variant can bone most shield based vehicles with little or no armour rep... vs armour with tons of rep it does litterally nothing... I would suggest lower damage to shields increase maybe a bit to armour, but not much. I actually like this idea, makes the triple rep incubus dead. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2453	Posted - 2014.08.21 15:47:00 - [4] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: All I have to say: this is what happens when CCP listens to its community. CCP knew ADSs would cause issues with game balance, and they wanted to remove them with the rest of the vehicle variants. The community bitched about it, so CCP kept them in game. Lo and behold, the ADS is still ******* up game balance. So you whining about it instead of offering a solution is going to help? I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2463	Posted - 2014.08.22 01:13:00 - [5] - Quote @ action: I've used the range amp, it works fine for me. And if you're so certain that I've never flown before, ask me a derp question that is at least chrome build and beyond. I was flying when damage mods were passive, when blaster turrets were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and during that era ironically, rockets were very underrated, as rockets in that day were still awesome. I was around when rockets didn't count as explosive damage, and you could still be revived after being shot by it. Long story short, range amps work for me, I guess they don't work for you. If that's how you roll, fine. @ massive, I thank you for the compliment. You're a pretty scary forger yourself. But in truth, there are pilots out there that can probably do the things I do better than I can. heck, I've even been trying to teach some people to fly recently, and to be honest, I don't think that good of a job, not a bad job mind you, but I could do better. @ that one kitty: Show me an ADS pilot that flies in a straight line to avoid swarms. I never said that this should be a good way to dodge them, in fact, any pilot that does that deserves to die. @ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.08.22 02:04:00 - [6] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: @ action: I've used the range amp, it works fine for me. And if you're so certain that I've never flown before, ask me a derp question that is at least chrome build and beyond. I was flying when damage mods were passive, when blaster turrets were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and during that era ironically, rockets were very underrated, as rockets in that day were still awesome. I was around when rockets didn't count as explosive damage, and you could still be revived after being shot by it. Long story short, range amps work for me, I guess they don't work for you. If that's how you roll, fine. @ massive, I thank you for the compliment. You're a pretty scary forger yourself. But in truth, there are pilots out there that can probably do the things I do better than I can. heck, I've even been trying to teach some people to fly recently, and to be honest, I don't think that good of a job, not a bad job mind you, but I could do better. @ that one kitty: Show me an ADS pilot that flies in a straight line to avoid swarms. I never said that this should be a good way to dodge them, in fact, any pilot that does that deserves to die. @ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget. Range amps arent for dropships. I use them on my Amarr logi. Which is my main pilot suit. I thought that would've been common sense, you and Takahiro got it wrong too. My mistake. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.08.22 03:02:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: @ adipem Nothi: The swarm is a pure AV weapon. If you look at the stats and damage towards infantry, it was never meant to kill infantry by design. That is why it didn't fare so well in kills, as it wasn't supposed to kill anything but vehicles. I still maintain that swarms having a lock on feature make me think that it shouldn't get anything buffed, at least damage wise. I will still view it as fire and forget. 124 Kills. You'd think a "purely AV weapon" would be better at AV. No? Swarm performance is abysmal, even when the very best of us give it our all. Not when it fires and practically aims for you, no. Also the fact that it curves around buildings following our flight pattern almost perfectly, and that I have yet to see a swarm user who doesn't camp a single area hoping I'll go looking for him. I admit, I do. But I think the matter here is that no matter what you or I say to convince each other of our arguments, we're not going to agree with each other. I think it's a fire and forget weapon that noob tube users want to spam like it's ham on Christmas (that was a terrible analogy), you... I'm not sure what you think, but it clearly doesn't fall in tandem with what I think. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.08.22 03:15:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: I thoroughly enjoy seeing ADS pilots post as if surviving AV is difficult. Getting a good laugh once in a while is very good for the mind, and soul. Aren't you going to try to debunk why I think swarms are fine? You always seem to do that. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.08.22 04:28:00 - [9] - Quote I had to cut the quotes, but this one is at you Atiim. 1)I did the math again, and it still shows 34 damage difference. But to be honest, it's three damage, one of us is off by three. Doesn't matter who. Is it really worth arguing over? 2)On your little technique on outrunning them, that's a terrible move, I wouldn't use that move to run from a hippo (again with these terrible analogies, I really should stop). You can be so much more useful to a team using Judge's technique (the flippy circle thing, screw it, we'll call it the rolling pig), it takes less time to get in back in the fight and clear reds off high ground and put links up so your blue chicks can camp the high and secure a letter. 3) So being wrong on one point nullifies nearly my whole argument? First off, I don't even think I'm wrong. And positioning isn't a skill thing, it's a common sense thing. I attribute skill to gun game, having good positioning with a weapon doesn't make you good at it, or skilled, hitting accurately all by yourself does, no matter where you are. 4) You have to remain undetected argument. Yes, that is what you're supposed to do, and I have seen people say this. Adipem Nothi said it himself in a thread similar to this (in that it was concerning ADS). Yes I have seen it, just don't remember where. I think features and ideas. 5) I have to admit I probably haven't played against every swarmer in the game, but I don't view the notion that this all becomes okay because one guy/girl out of 6000 (random number) does it right. It doesn't change the fact that nearly every time there is a hive, there is almost always a swarmer near. But who knows, you recently got a ammo buff, no? Maybe some swarmers may start doing it right for once, that will interesting for me. Besides, you don't become a swarmer by picking up a swarm launcher that you get for free, you become one by devoting yourself to it. Pilots, slayers, heavies and logis all have become who they are by devoting themselves to said role. 6) Minmando, to be honest, I thought that assaults should've gotten that bonus to weapons. They are the slayers after all. I think that commandos should have gotten a bonus to help their races weapons in it weak ranges. Galmando would have gotten a bonus to effective plasma range, calmando would have received a recoil bonus. Which would leave the min assault in a very interesting position, don't you think? They could start being mobile AV as their speed is greater than all medium frames and above, then they can follow the advice our great rapper Ludacris gave. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, but I'm sleepy and I'm going to watch an episode of Wedding Peach to see if I can stomach it. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2464	Posted - 2014.08.22 04:32:00 - [10] - Quote One more thing, no ADS pilot I respect puts three xt-1s on a python. Three reasons: 1) expensive 2) not enough tank 3) having two gunners makes it to where you have to decide between gunners, in that period where he is deciding, he can easily get rammed. It doesn't take that long. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2472	Posted - 2014.08.22 17:57:00 - [11] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: XT-1 Missiles have a base of 500 HP worth of Splash Damage. That's why ADSs are OP as hell. *358 splash, and that isn't putting into account the damage buff skill we get. 358+ 35= 393 is our max splash raw, if your concern is that it may be possible to reach nearly 500 splash damage, use shields. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2475	Posted - 2014.08.22 19:00:00 - [12] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: As for the Swarm vs Afterburner argument. Both sides have perfectly valid points which the other can only reply with 'tin foil hats' or whining. I think it's perfectly fair, that a dropship shouldn't be capable of staight up out running a swarm volley, especially if said volley is launched less than 50m from you, or is already in the air. Too many times can pilots just outrun the 2 volleys in the air, of which only 1 is required, that is simply not fair, I have outmanoeuvred and outclassed that pilot, he should be laid to rites. But he isn't as such I believe a Swarm Launcher speed buff and/or an afterburner nerf is entirely justified. Secondly I think the current tracking ability of swarms is absurd, no matter what you do you simply can't outmanoeuvre them, it would bring more skill to both roles, if the swarm launcher can be dodged. As such I believe a turning circle nerf is also perfectly justified. You know, our fair princess Zatata said much the same to me over Skype. And to be fair, he raised a valid point with the acceleration of swarms, and I just tested Atiims avoidance move, it's sadly possible this can happen, lets noob pilots have an easy way out, and be less useful, padding their KD. Anyway, long story short, I guess an acceleration boost is fine to swarms, but I see no point in buffing anything else. I am the skybound warrior, you will know to run when you hear the music from above that make panties disappear.