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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8885	Posted - 2014.07.31 00:09:00 - [1] - Quote The FW loyalty store market has always been a terribly implemented feature, quite frankly. A great idea, just poorly executed. Now since Hotfix Charlie is addressing Loyalty Point payouts to make people more interested in playing FW, now seems like a good time to point out all the mistakes with the Loyalty Store market so they can be addressed in a future hotfix. However, what I'm going to discuss here isn't the usual "missing items" or "items not unique" (at least have unique skins!) complaints, no no. I'm going to discuss something FAR more important. The massive disparity between Loyalty Store item values What I mean is how much value your Loyalty Points (LP) get you when you buy varying items. To fairly compare the value of all the Loyalty Store items, I ordered all the items by their ISK-Per-LP values. That is, the amount of ISK one LP is worth. Please don't say, "But these items require lower skill requirements so they are not the same!" That is entirely besides the point, all I'm trying to do here is provide a fair comparison between all items. Additionally, most competitive players already have the skill for the item they are purchasing at level 5, so they are purely buying it as an alternative means of acquiring their gear. The ISK-Per-LP value was achieved by simply taking the ISK value of the equivalent item from the normal market, subtracting the ISK value from the Loyalty Store market, and dividing all that by the LP cost of the item. The results are displayed in the falling spreadsheet. DUST 514: Faction Warfare Loyalty Store Market Analysis As you can see, there is a massive disparity between items. The best value item (tied between the Imperial Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle, State Ishukone Assault Rail Rifle, and Federation Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle) gets you 574.40 ISK per LP, whereas the worst value item (the Republic Flaylock Pistol) will only get you 20.36 ISK per LP. That is a difference factor of over 28! Why is all of this important? For one because all the items need to be relatively close in ISK-Per-LP value or else many items will be completely ignored from the LP store, and why would we want that? Secondly because CCP is trying to figure out how much LP you should be paid for winning a match in FW. Currently, at level 10 you get 659 LP per victory. Using the highest value conversion, that is roughly equivalent to 378,529.60 ISK per victory. Using the lowest value conversion, that is roughly equivalent to 13,417.24 ISK per victory. The range here is far too large. CCP, I know what you are thinking. "This would take a lot of time since we'd have to first establish a value we believe is acceptable and then we have to re-add all the items to the market with these adjusted prices. Our time is better spent elsewhere." But CCP, this isn't just a small problem, this is a massive problem. A high priority. Think about how much time it took me to gather and copy all that info to the spreadsheet and then work it out, that should give you a sense for how important this is at least to me. If you're willing to work on this CCP, I'm willing to help and I'm sure many others are as well. Just give me a response as to whether this is something you'll look into or not so I can decide whether it's worth me putting any more effort into. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8885	Posted - 2014.07.31 00:56:00 - [2] - Quote Some interesting stats, Number of items in each value range (ISK Per LP) 500-550: 3 450-500: 0 400-450: 7 350-400: 0 300-350: 12 250-300: 1 200-250: 5 150-200: 17 100-150: 16 50-100: 110 0-50: 33 As you can see, the vast majority of items in the Loyalty Store have garbage values and no reason to purchase them (provided you already have the skills). Highest value item of each type (ISK Per LP) Weapon: 547.40 - all the prototype variant light weapons that are in the market Turret: 402.98 - State XT-201 Missile Turret, but because of assumed misvalued LP cost (535 LP instead of 1105 LP), so 2nd Turret: 195.11 - State 80GJ Particle Cannon Equipment: 326.92 - Republic Boundless Remote Explosive, but an anomaly so 2nd Equipment 196.19 - State Ishukone Nanohive Dropsuit: 316.37 - all prototype suits except Imperial Commando ak.0 Vehicle: 135.00 - Both HAVs Module: 76.83 - Enhanced Shield Rechargers/Energizers Pretty much the only things worth getting are your prototype weapons and maybe your prototype suits. The exception being the two anomalies of the State XT-201 Missile Turret, which is likely an error in the market, and the Republic Boundless Remote Explosive. Past that the value drops off far too much to be considered a good investment. Additionally, for whatever reason the Commando suits have worse value than other equivalent tier suits because their ISK cost in the loyalty store in increased. All modules are absolutely terrible value and should never be purchased in the current state. Even the best value module is abysmally small and, funny enough, it isn't even a prototype module. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3726	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:02:00 - [3] - Quote Nice find Edit: did I just ruin your setup? Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8887	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:07:00 - [4] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Nice find Edit: did I just ruin your setup? I'm not seeing anything ruined. I set it up so that only I can edit the spreadsheet, only way you could of done something is if you made a copy and edited that. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3758	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:31:00 - [5] - Quote It doesnt matter if you have a nice ISK-LP ratio. The question is: "are these items better then my generic crap"? And in most cases the answer is NO. The suits dont have better fitting, the modules dont give more HP/better reps, all of the guns avaible dont have more damage or better rate of fire. Its just not worth my time. I can run pubs and allways get payd but when i run FW and loose i get allmost nothing for my efforts. Hell its even way to hard to just fit a standard suit with faction stuff and run FW for it. So lets make a example: Replublic assault M-I 35LP Republic massdriver 25Lp Republic SMG 25LP 3Xbasic republic shield extender= 60LP basic republic regulator= 20LP republic remote explosive= 20Lp total: 185LP per suit when i look at my FW earnings i maybe could get 3 or 4 of this suit if my side wins. Now if i would use the same setup but with ISK modules i would pay around 10.000 ISK per suit. When i jump into a ambush match i could quickly earn like 180k ISK within 10 minutes. Which means that 1 ambush payd for 18 of my suits. Ive earned it faster and more then i would when running FW. New shield module!
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8889	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:37:00 - [6] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: It doesnt matter if you have a nice ISK-LP ratio. The question is: "are these items better then my generic crap"? And in most cases the answer is NO. The suits dont have better fitting, the modules dont give more HP/better reps, all of the guns avaible dont have more damage or better rate of fire. Its just not worth my time. I can run pubs and allways get payd but when i run FW and loose i get allmost nothing for my efforts. Hell its even way to hard to just fit a standard suit with faction stuff and run FW for it. So lets make a example: Replublic assault M-I 35LP Republic massdriver 25Lp Republic SMG 25LP 3Xbasic republic shield extender= 60LP basic republic regulator= 20LP republic remote explosive= 20Lp total: 185LP per suit when i look at my FW earnings i maybe could get 3 or 4 of this suit if my side wins. Now if i would use the same setup but with ISK modules i would pay around 10.000 ISK per suit. When i jump into a ambush match i could quickly earn like 180k ISK within 10 minutes. Which means that 1 ambush payd for 18 of my suits. Ive earned it faster and more then i would when running FW. I disagree with making LP items that are flat out better. Maybe different, but not simply better. And anyways even with the items exactly the same, there is still a point to FW. That point is if you work to improve your standing for a faction and then play and win for that faction, you can get considerably higher payout values. So the question then becomes: A) Do I want to play public matches and get guaranteed ISK I can use on everything? or B) Do I want to play FW matches and get a much higher value payout, but only if I win and only use-able on certain items? And of course there is also PC but that is besides the point. Also with your example you are getting terrible value for your LP. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12400	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:38:00 - [7] - Quote I know more people would FW if Caldari Navy Gunlogi added 15% to Railgun damage and had better slot and base stat lay outs....... people would be all over that trying to farm enough LP to with their tanks. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 965	Posted - 2014.07.31 02:43:00 - [8] - Quote Even at 550Isk per LP and tier 10 standings, a win gets you, what, 659LP? That's 362k Isk; higher than a pub match unless you're in the top two or three, but not really worth the down sides of friendly fire and getting essentially no rewards if you lose. Oh, and that's only spending the LP on the absolute best value items. If you dip into the middle tier of LP items, suddenly you're looking at 230k isk-equivalent for a win, and heaven forbid you drop to the low tier and end up with 66k worth of items. Dust/Eve transfers
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8896	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:12:00 - [9] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Even at 550Isk per LP and tier 10 standings, a win gets you, what, 659LP? That's 362k Isk; higher than a pub match unless you're in the top two or three, but not really worth the down sides of friendly fire and getting essentially no rewards if you lose. Oh, and that's only spending the LP on the absolute best value items. If you dip into the middle tier of LP items, suddenly you're looking at 230k isk-equivalent for a win, and heaven forbid you drop to the low tier and end up with 66k worth of items. Exactly what I'm trying to say. All items need their value brought up towards the top tier in ISK Per LP and then the LP payouts need to be tripled. Some may say that's way too much, but you much remember that you are risking getting really low payouts if you lose. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12407	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:54:00 - [10] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Even at 550Isk per LP and tier 10 standings, a win gets you, what, 659LP? That's 362k Isk; higher than a pub match unless you're in the top two or three, but not really worth the down sides of friendly fire and getting essentially no rewards if you lose. Oh, and that's only spending the LP on the absolute best value items. If you dip into the middle tier of LP items, suddenly you're looking at 230k isk-equivalent for a win, and heaven forbid you drop to the low tier and end up with 66k worth of items. Exactly what I'm trying to say. All items need their value brought up towards the top tier in ISK Per LP and then the LP payouts need to be tripled. Some may say that's way too much, but you much remember that you are risking getting really low payouts if you lose. Okay sure our LP is Worth X ISK but in any situation where we cannot sell to take advantage of that ISK all it amounts to half a suit fitting that costs almost 300K ISK and isnt any better than an ISK proto suit. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 966	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:16:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Okay sure our LP is Worth X ISK but in any situation where we cannot sell to take advantage of that ISK all it amounts to half a suit fitting that costs almost 300K ISK and isnt any better than an ISK proto suit. Faction specialist weapons are proto status but advanced fittings. That's strictly better (and costs more LP than normal proto) Faction equipment is strictly better than proto. I am okay with a bunch of faction prototype modules also getting a buff, but the first thing that should be done is normalise LP costs. Dust/Eve transfers
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 921	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:19:00 - [12] - Quote I only go to the LP store for 3 items and they are specifically support EQ items because they perform slightly better than their prototype counterparts, but otherwise, I found it just a big hassle and would rather just work for the ISK than have to worry about two separate currencies when my fitting runs out. That in itself should speak to how poorly implemented that whole store is. Knights of Ender Minmatar Logisis \| Heavy lover.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12410	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:32:00 - [13] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Okay sure our LP is Worth X ISK but in any situation where we cannot sell to take advantage of that ISK all it amounts to half a suit fitting that costs almost 300K ISK and isnt any better than an ISK proto suit. Faction specialist weapons are proto status but advanced fittings. That's strictly better (and costs more LP than normal proto) Faction equipment is strictly better than proto. I am okay with a bunch of faction prototype modules also getting a buff, but the first thing that should be done is normalise LP costs. Thats not incentivising me to play FW..... I have my skills and could care less about accessing proto 1 tier faster...... "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 968	Posted - 2014.07.31 10:35:00 - [14] - Quote But you do care about getting an extra 43cpu and 7pg from using a faction gun, right? Dust/Eve transfers
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4431	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:10:00 - [15] - Quote Oh wow I can't believe they didn't make it like this in the first place. The question is, what is the percentage of isk that a faction item should cost? 10%? 20%? The way I see it... -You earn an amount of lp for a win. The amount of lp earned in comparison to the isk to lp ratio should be rather low, but then be much better than a public match once you reach a high standings level. In other words, a win should net you about 150k isk worth of lp at level 0 or level 1 standings, but then should give you 300-500k isk worth of lp at level 10 standings -If an item costs 100 lp, and that same item costs 50k isk then an item that costs 10 lp should cost 5k isk -The isk cost of the item should be a "tax" or percent of the normal isk cost of the item, and it should apply the same for all items at the same percentage. If an item is normally 50k isk, and the "tax" is 10%, then the lp item wold include a 5k isk cost. (these items are taxed because they have lower skill requirements) The hard part is figuring out the numbers: -The amount of lp paid out (2 or 3x current rate?) -The isk to lp ratio -The "tax" ______________________________________________________________________________ Some things to keep in mind: Should unique items (such as the specialist rifles and faction equipment) have a lower isk to lp ratio to make them more "expensive"? Should high sp costing items (such as dropsuits and vehicles) have a lower isk to lp ratio because of the extra sp they save? The sp you save from advanced to proto weapons is about 400k, while the sp yoo save from adv to proto dropsuits is something like 1.5 million. What about modules and equipment which both save around 700k sp? 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 968	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:46:00 - [16] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Oh wow I can't believe they didn't make it like this in the first place. The question is, what is the percentage of isk that a faction item should cost? 10%? 20%? Depends on the design goals. Originally, it was meant to be an isk sink, so large negative isk sums were a good thing. However, without player trading, isk sinks aren't really useful because there's no real economy to require sinking isk from, so having isk amounts being only a small component of the cost is probably a good thing; less isk cost, but more LP cost to get the neat gear. Quote: In other words, a win should net you about 150k isk worth of lp at level 0 or level 1 standings, but then should give you 300-500k isk worth of lp at level 10 standings I'd prefer to bump it up even higher; most decent squads will rake in 250k per squad member for a skirmish pub match; if you factor in the friendly fire, and the paltry rewards if you lose, then players won't come to the party unless they're getting double that or more. Quote: Should unique items (such as the specialist rifles and faction equipment) have a lower isk to lp ratio to make them more "expensive"? Heck yes they should. Note, however, that most LP ratios are so terrible that they'll probably still be more affordable when fixed than they are now. Quote: Should high sp costing items (such as dropsuits and vehicles) have a lower isk to lp ratio because of the extra sp they save? The sp you save from advanced to proto weapons is about 400k, while the sp yoo save from adv to proto dropsuits is something like 1.5 million. What about modules and equipment which both save around 700k sp? In an ideal world, the AUR cost of neo suits should reflect those decisions already, so all that's needed is an AUR->LP conversion rate and you're done... Dust/Eve transfers
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8910	Posted - 2014.07.31 16:38:00 - [17] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: -You earn an amount of lp for a win. The amount of lp earned in comparison to the isk to lp ratio should be rather low, but then be much better than a public match once you reach a high standings level. In other words, a win should net you about 150k isk worth of lp at level 0 or level 1 standings, but then should give you 300-500k isk worth of lp at level 10 standings Needs to be a higher amount of LP once you get to level 10. You have to remember that currently in Public Contracts you can earn over 300K fairly easily win or lose and you don't even need to grind standing up for anything. In Faction Warfare you have to both grind that standing up to Level 10 and then you only get paid well if you win. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3764	Posted - 2014.07.31 19:15:00 - [18] - Quote There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. New shield module!
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8910	Posted - 2014.07.31 19:16:00 - [19] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. There is definitely an ISK-LP ratio, it just varies depending on what you choose to buy with your LP. And the variance is huge, that is what this thread is about. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12438	Posted - 2014.07.31 21:20:00 - [20] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The dark cloud wrote: There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. There is definitely an ISK-LP ratio, it just varies depending on what you choose to buy with your LP. And the variance is huge, that is what this thread is about. But that ratio doesn't matter when you cannot make the exchange of your LP items for ISK. It means nothing discussing the theoretical LP/ISK exchange rate without that capacity. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3179	Posted - 2014.08.01 00:10:00 - [21] - Quote Nice work... this kind of rework would pretty much be a must if we ever want FW to be worth playing. I will mention... a lot of faction gear in Eve is just flat better, I don't think it would make the game unbalanced if faction gear in Dust was just straight better. Giving it stats somewhere between proto and officer perhaps? B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 976	Posted - 2014.08.01 00:33:00 - [22] - Quote Remember that not every faction item in Eve is actually more powerful; a lot of faction items are the same as Tech 2 but lowered fitting costs. (e.g. faction specialist weapons in Dust) Dust/Eve transfers
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12453	Posted - 2014.08.01 00:38:00 - [23] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Remember that not every faction item in Eve is actually more powerful; a lot of faction items are the same as Tech 2 but lowered fitting costs. (e.g. faction specialist weapons in Dust) Most are though...or a combination of being at least more efficient with less draw backs or items that a typically difficult to acquired or FW exclusive.. Imperial Navy Heat Sinks much? "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
MINA Longstrike 1097	Posted - 2014.08.01 00:43:00 - [24] - Quote Also federation navy stasis webifiers. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8912	Posted - 2014.08.01 02:13:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: The dark cloud wrote: There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. There is definitely an ISK-LP ratio, it just varies depending on what you choose to buy with your LP. And the variance is huge, that is what this thread is about. But that ratio doesn't matter when you cannot make the exchange of your LP items for ISK. It means nothing discussing the theoretical LP/ISK exchange rate without that capacity. But if I was going to use that LP to buy the same items I would of bought anyways with ISK, then yes that ISK-LP conversion means a hell of a lot. And I know in your case you won't be playing Gal FW to buy Madrugars, but that is a personal choice you made. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12457	Posted - 2014.08.01 02:30:00 - [26] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: The dark cloud wrote: There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. There is definitely an ISK-LP ratio, it just varies depending on what you choose to buy with your LP. And the variance is huge, that is what this thread is about. But that ratio doesn't matter when you cannot make the exchange of your LP items for ISK. It means nothing discussing the theoretical LP/ISK exchange rate without that capacity. But if I was going to use that LP to buy the same items I would of bought anyways with ISK, then yes that ISK-LP conversion means a hell of a lot. And I know in your case you won't be playing Gal FW to buy Madrugars, but that is a personal choice you made. It's not so much a personal choice as our corp won't allow it.... my old afked Federal Maddies are already gone though...... I couldn't sell them so I used em. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8912	Posted - 2014.08.01 03:41:00 - [27] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: The dark cloud wrote: There is no point in running FW cause the suits you make out of LP cost way too much and you cant even break even with FW. And there is no ISK-LP ratio cause there is no player market where you could convert it. LP payouts should be 50-60% higher at the base and then aswell increase with your standings. If you cant be self sufficent by running FW then its not worth the time playing it. There is definitely an ISK-LP ratio, it just varies depending on what you choose to buy with your LP. And the variance is huge, that is what this thread is about. But that ratio doesn't matter when you cannot make the exchange of your LP items for ISK. It means nothing discussing the theoretical LP/ISK exchange rate without that capacity. But if I was going to use that LP to buy the same items I would of bought anyways with ISK, then yes that ISK-LP conversion means a hell of a lot. And I know in your case you won't be playing Gal FW to buy Madrugars, but that is a personal choice you made. It's not so much a personal choice as our corp won't allow it.... my old afked Federal Maddies are already gone though...... I couldn't sell them so I used em. But it is your personal choice to be in this corp, that is what I was getting at. Anyways, you get my point that if the stuff in the LP store is the stuff you buy anyways, than that ISK-LP conversion is really important. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Boot Booter Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 811	Posted - 2014.08.01 15:59:00 - [28] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: It doesnt matter if you have a nice ISK-LP ratio. The question is: "are these items better then my generic crap"? And in most cases the answer is NO. The suits dont have better fitting, the modules dont give more HP/better reps, all of the guns avaible dont have more damage or better rate of fire. Its just not worth my time. I can run pubs and allways get payd but when i run FW and loose i get allmost nothing for my efforts. Hell its even way to hard to just fit a standard suit with faction stuff and run FW for it. So lets make a example: Replublic assault M-I 35LP Republic massdriver 25Lp Republic SMG 25LP 3Xbasic republic shield extender= 60LP basic republic regulator= 20LP republic remote explosive= 20Lp total: 185LP per suit when i look at my FW earnings i maybe could get 3 or 4 of this suit if my side wins. Now if i would use the same setup but with ISK modules i would pay around 10.000 ISK per suit. When i jump into a ambush match i could quickly earn like 180k ISK within 10 minutes. Which means that 1 ambush payd for 18 of my suits. Ive earned it faster and more then i would when running FW. Well didn't you read the OP? It clearly states that using LP on standard items is the least efficient way of spending. While using LP on the top items is far more efficient. Your example proves this, but I guess the idea would be to normalize the LP items in terms of LP per isk. (or at least narrow the gap) Nice post, I've always noticed this but never cared to run the numbers. My thought is to make LP payouts about twice as strong as pub matches to encourage competition and also allow players to rationalize the time of playing FW if for example they won 50% of the time. The item prices should all be very similar for LP per isk. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8950	Posted - 2014.08.06 23:54:00 - [29] - Quote Still hoping this gets consideration for a future hotfix. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 980	Posted - 2014.08.07 01:07:00 - [30] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Still hoping this gets consideration for a future hotfix. OK, so what's the next step? From my POV, what should be done next is to make a spreadsheet with the changes you want. 1. Classify everything into categories Normal stuff: * suits * weapons * modules * equipment * turrets Stuff more powerful than normal proto: * Specialist PRO weapons * unique faction equipment (i.e. state nanite injectors) Semi-unique stuff that might need tweaking: * vehicles 2. Each category should have a separate formula to work out LP/isk cost (even if it's initially the same formula) So, ignore what they are now, work out something consistent about what they should cost. i.e. a rule like 'if the equivalent ISK item costs X, then the loyalty store cost will be 80% LP (rounded down) at the standard LP:ISK exchange rate for this item, with the rest of the price remaining as isk' so for a 1500Isk scrambler rifle, if you have decided that the exchange rate is 1LP=400Isk, then it would cost 3LP plus 300ISK. Then apply that formula to all items in that category. 3. Work out what to do for unique faction stuff Personally, I think a blanket 20% more than the equivalent proto item would be sufficient, but either way, they will obey a separate formula. So basically, come up with a solution as well as a problem, in spreadsheet form. Dust/Eve transfers

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12656	Posted - 2014.08.07 01:29:00 - [31] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still hoping this gets consideration for a future hotfix. OK, so what's the next step? From my POV, what should be done next is to make a spreadsheet with the changes you want. 1. Classify everything into categories Normal stuff: * suits * weapons * modules * equipment * turrets Stuff more powerful than normal proto: * Specialist PRO weapons * unique faction equipment (i.e. state nanite injectors) Semi-unique stuff that might need tweaking: * vehicles 2. Each category should have a separate formula to work out LP/isk cost (even if it's initially the same formula) So, ignore what they are now, work out something consistent about what they should cost. i.e. a rule like 'if the equivalent ISK item costs X, then the loyalty store cost will be 80% LP (rounded down) at the standard LP:ISK exchange rate for this item, with the rest of the price remaining as isk' so for a 1500Isk scrambler rifle, if you have decided that the exchange rate is 1LP=400Isk, then it would cost 3LP plus 300ISK. Then apply that formula to all items in that category. 3. Work out what to do for unique faction stuff Personally, I think a blanket 20% more than the equivalent proto item would be sufficient, but either way, they will obey a separate formula. So basically, come up with a solution as well as a problem, in spreadsheet form. 20% is far too much..... it would make FW a farmville for PCers outside of their matches..... yes we want players to enjoy their rewards but not to have a meta that relies upon them to top tier gameplay. I like the fitting reductions..... for "almost as good as proto" or have some specific things 3-5% better than proto gear. Thats just in terms of modules though...... In terms of the vehicles we need to establish, or CCP need to establish how the Faction would use their vehicle, and provide bonuses based on that. E.G- Imperial Amarr HAV might receive a bonus of 5% per level to laser turret tracking speed, or 10% per level reduction to heat build up, with a 5% bonus to laser turret damage. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 980	Posted - 2014.08.07 01:37:00 - [32] - Quote True Adamance wrote: 20% is far too much..... it would make FW a farmville for PCers outside of their matches..... yes we want players to enjoy their rewards but not to have a meta that relies upon them to top tier gameplay. LP rewards are tripled in Charlie. FW will be a farmville for PCers, regardless of that 20% premium or not. Anyway, that's a separate issue. The salient point is that Faction Specialist weapons are strictly better than faction proto weapons, so they have to cost more. Similarly for unique faction equipment. We're not talking about hypotheticals here; these items already exist in the LP store. Dust/Eve transfers
Chunky Munkey 5108	Posted - 2014.08.07 08:25:00 - [33] - Quote It's the same for AU items. You're just paying for the novelty of early access. Plus there is an incalculable value in getting access, via LP, to items that you would otherwise have to pay real money for. Destiny won't kill Dust. CCP already did that.
Dreis Shadowweaver D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 18	Posted - 2014.08.07 21:28:00 - [34] - Quote A Dev seriously needs to read this. Well, I once meleed an R.E.... I've only ever known 1.8...
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 987	Posted - 2014.08.08 05:26:00 - [35] - Quote OK, my proposal https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14LNuASpbko5l0B70gzoBsBIjFGYd3b6Cn3gLziH-0Hg/edit?usp=sharing Everything normalised to 1LP = 400 isk with 80% of the cost being borne by LP Anything specialist + faction-unique equipment gets 20% premium Feel free to argue the numbers or create your own spreadsheet (maybe with different numbers for suits vs vehicles etc) whatever you want. Dust/Eve transfers
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4492	Posted - 2014.08.08 11:08:00 - [36] - Quote After crunching numbers I realized that an isk/lp ratio isn't going to work out... Sponk's doc shows EXACTLY the reason why too. Essentially the isk values of items are thrown around all over the place with not much reasoning that I can find. While almost all base proto weapons are worth 50k isk, a base proto equipment can be worth anywhere from 6-30k. Not to mention things like shotguns and swarm launchers have a lower base proto isk cost than rifles, and random weapons like mass drivers have a lower base advanced cost than the rest of the weapons. And then we have things like scrambler pistols having a lower isk cost than the rest of the sidearms >.> At least the dropsuits are standardized. All standard, advanced, and prototype dropsuits cost the exact same no matter if it is a scout or a heavy suit (although commandos still have an increased isk price in the faction store) Modules have a separate isk value per module as well. Biotic mods have a very low isk cost, while shield mods cost twice as much. I understand that some modules might be more useful than others, but should they have these cost differences in the faction market as well? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Here's the thing... The LP market is structured similar to the AUR market. Items are grouped together and given one standard price. All modules in the game cost 20 AUR for std, 30 for adv, and 40 for pro. Suits go for 60, 80, and 100... So buying proto items is a much better use of your AUR as 100 AUR will give you a 60k suit, while 60 AUR gives you a 3k suit... Do you know how EVE does it? Do they treat LP like isk, or do they group items together, despite their isk variances, and give the items all one single cost? _____________________________________________________________________________________ It makes me want to treat LP like a "unlock" (not sure how else to describe it) rather than a currency. Basically, LP isn't worth isk, but instead lets you buy the item at a lower isk cost with the reduced skill requirements. It's not designed to be the same as isk, or a replacement for isk. Sooooooooooo, the real problem here is just the lack of items in the FW market, and not the isk/LP ratio. Unless you want to complain about the isk/AUR ratio too... 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.08 15:45:00 - [37] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Do you know how EVE does it? Do they treat LP like isk, or do they group items together, despite their isk variances, and give the items all one single cost? Eve is more fluid, in that the market sets the price, and some LP items are more about the (market) cost of the random drops that are required to build them than the LP that goes into them. So in that sense, an item is worth as much as you can get for it. It's more about finding items to get the best isk:LP rate rather than having a fixed rate. Having said that, 1LP=1000 isk is the gold standard about whether it's worth buying something from the LP store to sell for isk - something that is not possible in Dust. Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.10 23:47:00 - [38] - Quote Posting that this should be a thing. Dust/Eve transfers
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 264	Posted - 2014.08.11 00:17:00 - [39] - Quote Glad to see this conversation has swung around to begin considering actual LP gear performance value vs ISK gear performance value (which according to the OP table descrip was left out intentionally to allow a straight number comparison) since the main "thing" about most LP gear is that it provides a higher value (fitting, performance, isk/aur cost) than its regular market equivalent. Ignoring that creates an incomplete data pool, and no matter how accurate the math is about an incomplete data pool, you can only get incomplete analysis from an incomplete data pool. ie, Conservative radio talkshow host Rush Limbaugh polls all female callers to his show and asks them what party they'll be voting for. His show, being conservative, primarily has conservative callers. So the women surveyed primarily associate themselves conservative. And Rush goes on the air and announces, "Women are voting largely conservative this year!". Not neccessarily the case, just the ones who called his show and took his poll are. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.11 02:24:00 - [40] - Quote Personally, I think putting everything on the same LP:ISK conversion rate is a good start, after which tweaks can be made based on empirical data. Dust/Eve transfers

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2682	Posted - 2014.08.11 15:16:00 - [41] - Quote Thread tagged for further observation and consideration. Looking forward to a constructive thread which can advise upcoming hotfix considerations. Let's keep the conversation on topic and clear. Please and thank you Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2014.08.11 20:03:00 - [42] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Personally, I think putting everything on the same LP:ISK conversion rate is a good start, after which tweaks can be made based on empirical data. A flat conversion rate for lp:isk is a good thing. Generating one from the existing lp store vs market without quantifying for the high performance aspects of the lp items tho will not generate an accurate one. Its like price comparing cars and ignoring mpg. It only establishes an incomplete comparison. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 992	Posted - 2014.08.12 01:25:00 - [43] - Quote OK, can you detail the various categories of item available on the LP store, and what LP conversion rate they should be, so we can discuss them? Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 00:10:00 - [44] - Quote Still waiting. Dust/Eve transfers
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 869	Posted - 2014.08.29 07:18:00 - [45] - Quote Nice work, Aero Yassavi, m8! Sorry for bad English =) >>> Legion rdy! <<<

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6112	Posted - 2014.08.29 07:22:00 - [46] - Quote I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:11:00 - [47] - Quote Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you're doing it wrong will I say so since decisions from poor data=poor decisions? Maybe. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:12:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1025	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:58:00 - [49] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you're doing it wrong will I say so since decisions from poor data=poor decisions? Maybe. You sound like my ex. "I'm not telling you what I want. Just try things and I'll tell you what you're doing wrong." Dust/Eve transfers
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 702	Posted - 2014.08.29 14:00:00 - [50] - Quote wait...wait...wait... something in DUST that had the potential to be great but has been done poorly?? i don't believe you! but on topic. the loyalty point store was pt1 of the market update patches ccp lied to us about being developed, without player trading the LP store is pointless. the idea of having to pick sides is there to encourage trading between us and the LP/ISK ratio would have made FW worth having. on an open market the FOTM specialist weapons and equipment would have fetched far more isk than the standard stuff. also i would have hoped we'd have seen specialist suits too, proto suits with more HP, CPU or PG or a faster movement speed ect but at a higher LP cost. LP store is just something else that will see fruition in Legion Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1685	Posted - 2014.08.29 14:48:00 - [51] - Quote +1 I think the loyalty store is somewhat of a mess, like you have shown. But most of the items just don't serve a purpose. I think there are times when isk value doesn't matter. Example, uplinks. Its a great way to get proto uplinks and not spend the SP, especially considering the skill itself doesn't provide a benefit. The isk/LP cost is somewhat irrelevant. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a little more consistent. I think this is a good place to start equalizing the FW market. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9195	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:14:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. Thank you for for liking into this. I was actually away from Dust when you posted this, but never too late to say I really appreciate you looking into it. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support


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