DUST Search - FW Loyalty Store Market Analysis (Something went terribly wrong)

SponkSponkSponk wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Still hoping this gets consideration for a future hotfix.

OK, so what's the next step?

From my POV, what should be done next is to make a spreadsheet with the changes you want.

1. Classify everything into categories

Normal stuff:

* suits
* weapons
* modules
* equipment
* turrets

Stuff more powerful than normal proto:

* Specialist PRO weapons
* unique faction equipment (i.e. state nanite injectors)

Semi-unique stuff that might need tweaking:

* vehicles

2. Each category should have a separate formula to work out LP/isk cost (even if it's initially the same formula)

So, ignore what they are now, work out something consistent about what they should cost.

i.e. a rule like 'if the equivalent ISK item costs X, then the loyalty store cost will be 80% LP (rounded down) at the standard LP:ISK exchange rate for this item, with the rest of the price remaining as isk'

so for a 1500Isk scrambler rifle, if you have decided that the exchange rate is 1LP=400Isk, then it would cost 3LP plus 300ISK.

Then apply that formula to all items in that category.

3. Work out what to do for unique faction stuff

Personally, I think a blanket 20% more than the equivalent proto item would be sufficient, but either way, they will obey a separate formula.

So basically, come up with a solution as well as a problem, in spreadsheet form.

"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12656	Posted - 2014.08.07 01:29:00 - [31] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still hoping this gets consideration for a future hotfix. OK, so what's the next step? From my POV, what should be done next is to make a spreadsheet with the changes you want. 1. Classify everything into categories Normal stuff: * suits * weapons * modules * equipment * turrets Stuff more powerful than normal proto: * Specialist PRO weapons * unique faction equipment (i.e. state nanite injectors) Semi-unique stuff that might need tweaking: * vehicles 2. Each category should have a separate formula to work out LP/isk cost (even if it's initially the same formula) So, ignore what they are now, work out something consistent about what they should cost. i.e. a rule like 'if the equivalent ISK item costs X, then the loyalty store cost will be 80% LP (rounded down) at the standard LP:ISK exchange rate for this item, with the rest of the price remaining as isk' so for a 1500Isk scrambler rifle, if you have decided that the exchange rate is 1LP=400Isk, then it would cost 3LP plus 300ISK. Then apply that formula to all items in that category. 3. Work out what to do for unique faction stuff Personally, I think a blanket 20% more than the equivalent proto item would be sufficient, but either way, they will obey a separate formula. So basically, come up with a solution as well as a problem, in spreadsheet form. 20% is far too much..... it would make FW a farmville for PCers outside of their matches..... yes we want players to enjoy their rewards but not to have a meta that relies upon them to top tier gameplay. I like the fitting reductions..... for "almost as good as proto" or have some specific things 3-5% better than proto gear. Thats just in terms of modules though...... In terms of the vehicles we need to establish, or CCP need to establish how the Faction would use their vehicle, and provide bonuses based on that. E.G- Imperial Amarr HAV might receive a bonus of 5% per level to laser turret tracking speed, or 10% per level reduction to heat build up, with a 5% bonus to laser turret damage. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 980	Posted - 2014.08.07 01:37:00 - [32] - Quote True Adamance wrote: 20% is far too much..... it would make FW a farmville for PCers outside of their matches..... yes we want players to enjoy their rewards but not to have a meta that relies upon them to top tier gameplay. LP rewards are tripled in Charlie. FW will be a farmville for PCers, regardless of that 20% premium or not. Anyway, that's a separate issue. The salient point is that Faction Specialist weapons are strictly better than faction proto weapons, so they have to cost more. Similarly for unique faction equipment. We're not talking about hypotheticals here; these items already exist in the LP store. Dust/Eve transfers
Chunky Munkey 5108	Posted - 2014.08.07 08:25:00 - [33] - Quote It's the same for AU items. You're just paying for the novelty of early access. Plus there is an incalculable value in getting access, via LP, to items that you would otherwise have to pay real money for. Destiny won't kill Dust. CCP already did that.
Dreis Shadowweaver D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 18	Posted - 2014.08.07 21:28:00 - [34] - Quote A Dev seriously needs to read this. Well, I once meleed an R.E.... I've only ever known 1.8...
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 987	Posted - 2014.08.08 05:26:00 - [35] - Quote OK, my proposal https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14LNuASpbko5l0B70gzoBsBIjFGYd3b6Cn3gLziH-0Hg/edit?usp=sharing Everything normalised to 1LP = 400 isk with 80% of the cost being borne by LP Anything specialist + faction-unique equipment gets 20% premium Feel free to argue the numbers or create your own spreadsheet (maybe with different numbers for suits vs vehicles etc) whatever you want. Dust/Eve transfers
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4492	Posted - 2014.08.08 11:08:00 - [36] - Quote After crunching numbers I realized that an isk/lp ratio isn't going to work out... Sponk's doc shows EXACTLY the reason why too. Essentially the isk values of items are thrown around all over the place with not much reasoning that I can find. While almost all base proto weapons are worth 50k isk, a base proto equipment can be worth anywhere from 6-30k. Not to mention things like shotguns and swarm launchers have a lower base proto isk cost than rifles, and random weapons like mass drivers have a lower base advanced cost than the rest of the weapons. And then we have things like scrambler pistols having a lower isk cost than the rest of the sidearms >.> At least the dropsuits are standardized. All standard, advanced, and prototype dropsuits cost the exact same no matter if it is a scout or a heavy suit (although commandos still have an increased isk price in the faction store) Modules have a separate isk value per module as well. Biotic mods have a very low isk cost, while shield mods cost twice as much. I understand that some modules might be more useful than others, but should they have these cost differences in the faction market as well? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Here's the thing... The LP market is structured similar to the AUR market. Items are grouped together and given one standard price. All modules in the game cost 20 AUR for std, 30 for adv, and 40 for pro. Suits go for 60, 80, and 100... So buying proto items is a much better use of your AUR as 100 AUR will give you a 60k suit, while 60 AUR gives you a 3k suit... Do you know how EVE does it? Do they treat LP like isk, or do they group items together, despite their isk variances, and give the items all one single cost? _____________________________________________________________________________________ It makes me want to treat LP like a "unlock" (not sure how else to describe it) rather than a currency. Basically, LP isn't worth isk, but instead lets you buy the item at a lower isk cost with the reduced skill requirements. It's not designed to be the same as isk, or a replacement for isk. Sooooooooooo, the real problem here is just the lack of items in the FW market, and not the isk/LP ratio. Unless you want to complain about the isk/AUR ratio too... 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.08 15:45:00 - [37] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Do you know how EVE does it? Do they treat LP like isk, or do they group items together, despite their isk variances, and give the items all one single cost? Eve is more fluid, in that the market sets the price, and some LP items are more about the (market) cost of the random drops that are required to build them than the LP that goes into them. So in that sense, an item is worth as much as you can get for it. It's more about finding items to get the best isk:LP rate rather than having a fixed rate. Having said that, 1LP=1000 isk is the gold standard about whether it's worth buying something from the LP store to sell for isk - something that is not possible in Dust. Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.10 23:47:00 - [38] - Quote Posting that this should be a thing. Dust/Eve transfers
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 264	Posted - 2014.08.11 00:17:00 - [39] - Quote Glad to see this conversation has swung around to begin considering actual LP gear performance value vs ISK gear performance value (which according to the OP table descrip was left out intentionally to allow a straight number comparison) since the main "thing" about most LP gear is that it provides a higher value (fitting, performance, isk/aur cost) than its regular market equivalent. Ignoring that creates an incomplete data pool, and no matter how accurate the math is about an incomplete data pool, you can only get incomplete analysis from an incomplete data pool. ie, Conservative radio talkshow host Rush Limbaugh polls all female callers to his show and asks them what party they'll be voting for. His show, being conservative, primarily has conservative callers. So the women surveyed primarily associate themselves conservative. And Rush goes on the air and announces, "Women are voting largely conservative this year!". Not neccessarily the case, just the ones who called his show and took his poll are. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 989	Posted - 2014.08.11 02:24:00 - [40] - Quote Personally, I think putting everything on the same LP:ISK conversion rate is a good start, after which tweaks can be made based on empirical data. Dust/Eve transfers

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2682	Posted - 2014.08.11 15:16:00 - [41] - Quote Thread tagged for further observation and consideration. Looking forward to a constructive thread which can advise upcoming hotfix considerations. Let's keep the conversation on topic and clear. Please and thank you Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2014.08.11 20:03:00 - [42] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Personally, I think putting everything on the same LP:ISK conversion rate is a good start, after which tweaks can be made based on empirical data. A flat conversion rate for lp:isk is a good thing. Generating one from the existing lp store vs market without quantifying for the high performance aspects of the lp items tho will not generate an accurate one. Its like price comparing cars and ignoring mpg. It only establishes an incomplete comparison. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 992	Posted - 2014.08.12 01:25:00 - [43] - Quote OK, can you detail the various categories of item available on the LP store, and what LP conversion rate they should be, so we can discuss them? Dust/Eve transfers
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 994	Posted - 2014.08.15 00:10:00 - [44] - Quote Still waiting. Dust/Eve transfers
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 869	Posted - 2014.08.29 07:18:00 - [45] - Quote Nice work, Aero Yassavi, m8! Sorry for bad English =) >>> Legion rdy! <<<

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6112	Posted - 2014.08.29 07:22:00 - [46] - Quote I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:11:00 - [47] - Quote Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you're doing it wrong will I say so since decisions from poor data=poor decisions? Maybe. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 285	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:12:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1025	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:58:00 - [49] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you're doing it wrong will I say so since decisions from poor data=poor decisions? Maybe. You sound like my ex. "I'm not telling you what I want. Just try things and I'll tell you what you're doing wrong." Dust/Eve transfers
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 702	Posted - 2014.08.29 14:00:00 - [50] - Quote wait...wait...wait... something in DUST that had the potential to be great but has been done poorly?? i don't believe you! but on topic. the loyalty point store was pt1 of the market update patches ccp lied to us about being developed, without player trading the LP store is pointless. the idea of having to pick sides is there to encourage trading between us and the LP/ISK ratio would have made FW worth having. on an open market the FOTM specialist weapons and equipment would have fetched far more isk than the standard stuff. also i would have hoped we'd have seen specialist suits too, proto suits with more HP, CPU or PG or a faster movement speed ect but at a higher LP cost. LP store is just something else that will see fruition in Legion Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1685	Posted - 2014.08.29 14:48:00 - [51] - Quote +1 I think the loyalty store is somewhat of a mess, like you have shown. But most of the items just don't serve a purpose. I think there are times when isk value doesn't matter. Example, uplinks. Its a great way to get proto uplinks and not spend the SP, especially considering the skill itself doesn't provide a benefit. The isk/LP cost is somewhat irrelevant. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a little more consistent. I think this is a good place to start equalizing the FW market. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9195	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:14:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this. Be very sure that we will study this very carefully. Thank you for for liking into this. I was actually away from Dust when you posted this, but never too late to say I really appreciate you looking into it. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support


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