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Putting passive bonuses where there aren't any. (Rough Draft)

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Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3119	Posted - 2014.07.28 19:42:00 - [1] - Quote So we know there are a significant amount of SP sinks in the skill tree currently, and I'd like to propose a fix to it. This is in General Discussions since these are my musings, and I want input before I ask they be made. First, which skills are in need of bonuses? Here are the skills (infantry only, since I have no intimate knowledge of vehicles) that have little or no use. Dropsuit Command All basic dropsuit skills (12 total) Dropsuit Upgrades Weaponry So, a total of 15 skills that need bonuses. To save my self a lot of typing for every bonus, let me say here that for each basic suit skill, the skill only applies to the suits that are under that skill, example: Amarr Heavy Dropsuit skill only applies to Amarr heavy basic suits, Amarr sentinels, and Amarr commandos. Here are my thoughts: Dropsuit Command- +1% base shield and armor per level Dropsuit Upgrades- +1% to all module efficacy per level Weaponry- +3% to total ammo capacity per level (+1 per level to weapons with small ammo count, ex swarm launchers, plasma cannons) Amarr Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor from armor plates per level (all types) Amarr Light Dropsuit -2% CPU/PG cost of laser weaponry per level Amarr Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of all armor plates Caldari Heavy Dropsuits +2% shield from shield extenders per level Caldari Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of rail weaponry per level Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of all shield modules Gallente Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor repair module rate per level Gallente Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of plasma weaponry per level Gallente Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor repair modules Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% kinetic catalyzer effect per level Minmatar Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of projectile weaponry per level Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of biotic modules per level H M G
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 150	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:08:00 - [2] - Quote that +1% per lvl to dropsuit command and upgrades just feels like it will have a ridiculous trickle down effect. i obviously didnt run any numbers but thats the first thing i noticed. i like the idea though Opus Arcana \| TBD Ringleader \| Yep Squad Spokesman
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3120	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:09:00 - [3] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: that +1% per lvl to dropsuit command and upgrades just feels like it will have a ridiculous trickle down effect. i obviously didnt run any numbers but thats the first thing i noticed. I doubt the dropsuit command bonus would do so, but I can see how the dropsuit upgrades one would. Maybe -1% CPU/PG cost of all modules? H M G
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 2273	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:14:00 - [4] - Quote These are all great. I have been asking for the "dead skills" to have passive bonuses since launch day. Two of the passives that really shine to me... Logi Bro wrote: Dropsuit Command- +1% base shield and armor per level Weaponry- +3% to total ammo capacity per level (+1 per level to weapons with small ammo count, ex swarm launchers, plasma cannons) These bonuses feel like that could be added to the game in hotfix Charlie and not even need to be balanced. These are skills that literally EVERYONE will eventually level. They might as well provide some kind of incentive to get to V. The passive relating to dropsuits will need to be carefully balanced after the CPU/PG and slot layout overhauls. I'm not saying OP's are crap, I'm just saying they need a lot of data before we can create good passives for them. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2947	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:20:00 - [5] - Quote The +1 per level for Weaponry, in some cases, would horribly unbalance things in the cases where those weapons' ammo sizes are intentionally designed as a balancing metric. They'd have to revisit those weapons to see if they needed to be nerfed to compensate. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3120	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:35:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: The +1 per level for Weaponry, in some cases, would horribly unbalance things in the cases where those weapons' ammo sizes are intentionally designed as a balancing metric. They'd have to revisit those weapons to see if they needed to be nerfed to compensate. Are you thinking of any one specific weapon? I can't really see the 3% doing any harm, seeing as the current +5% that each weapon has only grants one extra clip when fully maxed out. The +1 per level might be more useful than the +3%, but I still don't see that being damaging in any way. If someone were really tryhard-y, they'd just squad up with someone with nanohives anyways, and total ammo capacity would be irrelevant. H M G
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2947	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:38:00 - [7] - Quote I'm only talking about the +1 per level. On weapons like the Plasma Cannon or Forge Gun, that'd be a pretty huge buff, wouldn't it? Particularly since FGers can't carry their own nanohives. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3121	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:39:00 - [8] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: The passive relating to dropsuits will need to be carefully balanced after the CPU/PG and slot layout overhauls. I'm not saying OP's are crap, I'm just saying they need a lot of data before we can create good passives for them. I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that. H M G
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2554	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:42:00 - [9] - Quote General concept is solid. Most of the bonuses are solid. The Weaponry one jumps out at me as slightly problematic but let me take a closer look over my lunch hour. Still overall excellent work. All skills should offer SOME kind of bonus, even if its small.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3121	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:45:00 - [10] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm only talking about the +1 per level. On weapons like the Plasma Cannon or Forge Gun, that'd be a pretty huge buff, wouldn't it? Particularly since FGers can't carry their own nanohives. I definitely see what you are saying, but it wouldn't be a huge buff, from my point of view. It wouldn't have impact on an individual situation, a dropship that wouldn't die before this bonus still wouldn't die after, it just lengthens the time the forge gunner can do his job before running back to the supply depot/nanohives. Though I'd be more willing to change it, maybe more like +1 every other level? (That would invalidate level 5, but I can't really think of a better way to nerf that bonus) H M G

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 2279	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:45:00 - [11] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that. If all dropsuits of one racial type received a small bonus to fitting their preferred racial tanking module we might have an easier time of balancing. Just spitballing... Amarr +1% to armor plate efficacy per level. Gallente +2% to armor repairer efficacy per level. Minmatar +2% shield recharger efficacy per level. Caldari +1% to shield extender efficacy per level. These bonuses would apply to any dropsuit within that races' lineup. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Reign Omega BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 655	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:48:00 - [12] - Quote Can't really chime in on the balance but I agree there should be a bonus for all skills passively. Off the top of my head some vehicle skills that are duds are, the basic HAV skill (no need to get it past 1 it doesnt do anything further), The basic LAV skill(no REAL need to get it past 1 but if you want the Saga II you can take it to 3), No reason to get Dropship operation past 3 for ADS, And as far as I know there is no efficacy bonus for turret operation of any kind, save for unlocking more turrets. Observe the public trust. Protect the innocent. Uphold the law.
Shadow Archeus OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 399	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:54:00 - [13] - Quote If I'm right there are also vehicle skills that give no passive bonus Real heavies use lasers
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2726	Posted - 2014.07.28 21:05:00 - [14] - Quote The "roots", as I like to call them, should be something that's beneficial to newcomers, and kind of an indifference to a dude with 40 mil SP. These "roots" are the initial skills known as Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Weaponry. I'm thinking something along the lines of: Dropsuit Command: Unlocks STD, ADV, and PRO at 1, 3, and 5. -2% Dropsuit Price per level. Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels. -#% Equipment Duration per level. Weaponry: Unlocks Instruments of Death at their respective levels. -2% Weapon Price per level. I don't know. It's something that's not necessarily game breaking, and it fills in the blanks while helping newcomers out a bit as well. Maybe upgrades should be a price reduction, too? Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels. -2% Dropsuit Modules/equipment cost per level?
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3121	Posted - 2014.07.28 21:06:00 - [15] - Quote Shadow Archeus wrote: If I'm right there are also vehicle skills that give no passive bonus I'm not really much of a vehicle guy, but if someone else were to come up with some bonuses that sound good, I'd be willing to throw them into the OP, just so long as there weren't any glaring issues with them. H M G
Reign Omega BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 655	Posted - 2014.07.28 21:10:00 - [16] - Quote Reign Omega wrote: Can't really chime in on the balance but I agree there should be a bonus for all skills passively. Off the top of my head some vehicle skills that are duds are, the basic HAV skill (no need to get it past 1 it doesnt do anything further), The basic LAV skill(no REAL need to get it past 1 but if you want the Saga II you can take it to 3), No reason to get Dropship operation past 3 for ADS, And as far as I know there is no efficacy bonus for turret operation of any kind, save for unlocking more turrets. Some fitting reduction bonuses for Basic Dropships and LAV might be nice, or extender efficacy, hardener efficacy, something to make it worth even running these things for anything other than lolparty fun. As of right now the MLT is more effective than the STD dropship because you can hardly fit anything to make it worth flying for any amount of time for the price.... Observe the public trust. Protect the innocent. Uphold the law.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3124	Posted - 2014.07.28 21:11:00 - [17] - Quote Joel II X wrote: The "roots", as I like to call them, should be something that's beneficial to newcomers, and kind of an indifference to a dude with 40 mil SP. These "roots" are the initial skills known as Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Weaponry. I'm thinking something along the lines of: Dropsuit Command: Unlocks STD, ADV, and PRO at 1, 3, and 5. -2% Dropsuit Price per level. Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels. -#% Equipment Duration per level. Weaponry: Unlocks Instruments of Death at their respective levels. -2% Weapon Price per level. I don't know. It's something that's not necessarily game breaking, and it fills in the blanks while helping newcomers out a bit as well. Maybe upgrades should be a price reduction, too? Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels. -2% Dropsuit Modules/equipment cost per level? That would definitely benefit newcomers, but at the same time benefit protostompers. -10% cost is a lot more useful to someone using a 200k ISK fit than someone using a 20k ISK fit. Also, I'm not really sure that equipment duration is such a good idea, it would be of no help at all to sentinel users, and 'duration' isn't really a concept with repair tools and nanite injectors. H M G
Boot Booter Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 789	Posted - 2014.07.28 21:37:00 - [18] - Quote I like the idea however, as a min assault, I think the minmatar medium bonus is practically useless compared to the others. I mean a Caldari should practically be filling all slots with shield related modules. The minmatar might use one or two biotic modules which are generally lower CPU and PG costs than shields. I think these sort of things would throw the balance Rattati has been trying to achieve out the window. I'd rather see a small bonus to base stats for these. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3125	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:43:00 - [19] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: I like the idea however, as a min assault, I think the minmatar medium bonus is practically useless compared to the others. I mean a Caldari should practically be filling all slots with shield related modules. The minmatar might use one or two biotic modules which are generally lower CPU and PG costs than shields. I think these sort of things would throw the balance Rattati has been trying to achieve out the window. I'd rather see a small bonus to base stats for these. As a Minmatar Assault, is there any one thing you emphasize on all your fittings? If it were more like: Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield rechargers and extenders per level Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield energizers and regulators per level Would that fit the Minmatar philosophy better? H M G
Zindorak 1.U.P 190	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:34:00 - [20] - Quote 1+ its perfect Master of the Scrambler Pistol. Carthum Assault ScP <3

JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:36:00 - [21] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: So we know there are a significant amount of SP sinks in the skill tree currently, and I'd like to propose a fix to it. This is in General Discussions since these are my musings, and I want input before I ask they be made. First, which skills are in need of bonuses? Here are the skills (infantry only, since I have no intimate knowledge of vehicles) that have little or no use. Dropsuit Command All basic dropsuit skills (12 total) Dropsuit Upgrades Weaponry So, a total of 15 skills that need bonuses. To save my self a lot of typing for every bonus, let me say here that for each basic suit skill, the skill only applies to the suits that are under that skill, example: Amarr Heavy Dropsuit skill only applies to Amarr heavy basic suits, Amarr sentinels, and Amarr commandos. Here are my thoughts: Dropsuit Command +1% base shield and armor per level Dropsuit Upgrades -1% CPU/PG cost of all modules per level Weaponry +3% to total ammo capacity per level (+1 per level to weapons with small ammo count, ex swarm launchers, plasma cannons) Amarr Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor from armor plates per level (all types) Amarr Light Dropsuit -2% CPU/PG cost of laser weaponry per level Amarr Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of all armor plates Caldari Heavy Dropsuits +2% shield from shield extenders per level Caldari Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of rail weaponry per level Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of all shield modules Gallente Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor repair module rate per level Gallente Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of plasma weaponry per level Gallente Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor repair modules Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% kinetic catalyzer effect per level Minmatar Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of projectile weaponry per level Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of biotic modules per level Please share your thoughts/comments, this is a rough draft, after all. Anything less than 2% per level is not welcome Look at biotic upgrades, useless. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12310	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:39:00 - [22] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that. If all dropsuits of one racial type received a small bonus to fitting their preferred racial tanking module we might have an easier time of balancing. Just spitballing... Amarr +1% to armor plate efficacy per level. Gallente +2% to armor repair module rate per level. Minmatar +2% shield recharger efficacy per level. Caldari +1% to shield extender efficacy per level. These bonuses would apply to any dropsuit within that races' lineup. Actually in most cases the Amarr don't/ cannot out HP tank gallente....we deal with resistances not plate stacking. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:42:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that. If all dropsuits of one racial type received a small bonus to fitting their preferred racial tanking module we might have an easier time of balancing. Just spitballing... Amarr +1% to armor plate efficacy per level. Gallente +2% to armor repair module rate per level. Minmatar +2% shield recharger efficacy per level. Caldari +1% to shield extender efficacy per level. These bonuses would apply to any dropsuit within that races' lineup. Actually in most cases the Amarr don't/ cannot out HP tank gallente....we deal with resistances not plate stacking. And 5% ar or plate efficiency, that's 5 or so extra armor, which is why I despise 1% per level skills. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3127	Posted - 2014.07.29 05:03:00 - [24] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Anything less than 2% per level is not welcome Look at biotic upgrades, useless. Beggars can't really be choosers, currently we have +0%, so it's hardly like you're losing anything. If I get a couple more people that say that a +2% armor/shields per level skill wouldn't be too much, I would be willing to change it. H M G
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3127	Posted - 2014.07.29 05:16:00 - [25] - Quote Made an edit that I am interested in hearing what you all think about. Dropsuit Upgrades +0.2 armor repair per level So all the people whoever said that shield suits need innate repair as well as armor suits, now you get at least a small regen, and armor based suits just get a bit of boost to their much more powerful regen. Win/win. H M G
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3148	Posted - 2014.07.31 07:35:00 - [26] - Quote I was bored and figured I'd bump this one last time. I would really like to hear about the +1 armor rep for all suits, though. H M G
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3191	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:05:00 - [27] - Quote Bump SP Sinks? Fixed.
RYN0CER0S Rise Of Old Dudes 1154	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:09:00 - [28] - Quote Sounds like a good starting point, to me. Go. I don't always blap Infantry with a Forge Gun, but when I do, that ** is hilarious.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11716	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:12:00 - [29] - Quote 10% CPU/PG on armor reps vs Plasma weapons? Or straight up armor repair bonus? The medium frame one is definitely the weakest link. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 488	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:15:00 - [30] - Quote I like the bonus for the Minmatar Medium Frame, but I feel that the Biotics bonus and the Medium Frame should be switched. The Scout should be faster, getting more bang out of Kincat PG/CPU reduction, while the Medium Frames use the Reduction for projectile weapons. I likey thug RESPEC PLEASE After Delta CEO of GODS AMONG MEN Clone Wars forever #Starwars: Battlefront 3 Avid Bboy

Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3194	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:19:00 - [31] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: 10% CPU/PG on armor reps vs Plasma weapons? Or straight up armor repair bonus? The medium frame one is definitely the weakest link. I'm not sure what you are asking. The Gallente heavy frames get the straight up armor repair bonus, the mediums get armor repair module CPU/PG reduction. I'm not much of a Gallente loyalist, but I figure the most common fit has two reppers. Complex reppers have 45/11 CPU/PG, so two would cost 90/22. The Duvolle Assault rifle costs 90/13. So the medium bonus actually saves more than the light bonus. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Liftrasir Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:25:00 - [32] - Quote Sharpshooter skills. Add them to everything, including Nova Knives, or remove them from all weapons. Breach Nanite Injector
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3194	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:26:00 - [33] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: I like the bonus for the Minmatar Medium Frame, but I feel that the Biotics bonus and the Medium Frame should be switched. The Scout should be faster, getting more bang out of Kincat PG/CPU reduction, while the Medium Frames use the Reduction for projectile weapons. I likey thug My only problem with that is the Min assault suit would get a 25% light weapon CPU/PG reduction, and the the medium frame skill would give an additional 10% projectile weapon reduction as well. I really didn't want to double up the same bonuses. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3196	Posted - 2014.08.15 20:39:00 - [34] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: I like the bonus for the Minmatar Medium Frame, but I feel that the Biotics bonus and the Medium Frame should be switched. The Scout should be faster, getting more bang out of Kincat PG/CPU reduction, while the Medium Frames use the Reduction for projectile weapons. I likey thug Made edits to the OP, see what you think of that. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Nestil uptown456 Dark Taboo 134	Posted - 2014.08.15 21:40:00 - [35] - Quote I say "no" to your suggestions. this we would only increase the gab between high and low SP players. everyone has to skill into them if he wants better gear..so it's fair...
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 489	Posted - 2014.08.15 21:51:00 - [36] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: 501st Headstrong wrote: I like the bonus for the Minmatar Medium Frame, but I feel that the Biotics bonus and the Medium Frame should be switched. The Scout should be faster, getting more bang out of Kincat PG/CPU reduction, while the Medium Frames use the Reduction for projectile weapons. I likey thug Made edits to the OP, see what you think of that. Much better =D RESPEC PLEASE After Delta CEO of GODS AMONG MEN Clone Wars forever #Starwars: Battlefront 3 Avid Bboy
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 290	Posted - 2014.08.15 21:52:00 - [37] - Quote + 1, shouldn't be any skills that offer no reward. i will say though that dropsuit command should have something to do with pg/cpu or some such-because it is about dropsuit "command" but my main reason for posting is just to say the +1 bit.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3200	Posted - 2014.08.15 21:54:00 - [38] - Quote Nestil wrote: I say "no" to your suggestions. this we would only increase the gab between high and low SP players. everyone has to skill into them if he wants better gear..so it's fair... These skills all have, at the very most, a 4x skill multiplier. Low SP requirements does not increase the gap between low and high SP players. You have to skill into level three of these skills just to move on to the higher SP investments anyways. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2844	Posted - 2014.08.15 22:32:00 - [39] - Quote Nestil wrote: I say "no" to your suggestions. this we would only increase the gab between high and low SP players. everyone has to skill into them if he wants better gear..so it's fair... The purpose is primarily to make it so players don't feel like there are 'lost' skill levels, and gives purpose for many skills that dont require level 4-5 for anything, or unlock skills that offer nothing for levels 2 and 4. New players in particular see skills like and see them as just wastes of SP. Why have a level 2 and 4 if they don't do anything? In an ideal world, every single skill and skill level would give some sort of bonus. OP is on the right track with this one.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3204	Posted - 2014.08.16 17:42:00 - [40] - Quote Another bump SP Sinks? Fixed.

Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH 122	Posted - 2014.08.16 18:10:00 - [41] - Quote I agree with the concept and the logic (without too much dissection of numbers). I think it potentially risks upsetting the current flow of balancing and is too late to implement in dust - I would rather see delta focus on logi and commando tweaks and any corrections needed after charlie has settled. What I would really like is bug fixes for terrain glitches, team deploy and matchmaking, but.....
Cyzad4 Blackfish Corp. 385	Posted - 2014.08.16 18:20:00 - [42] - Quote May have been brought up but how about something like "+3% dropsuit mod efficacy per lvl" rather than just a straight eHP bonus? just tossing it out there Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3205	Posted - 2014.08.16 18:31:00 - [43] - Quote Cyzad4 wrote: May have been brought up but how about something like "+3% dropsuit mod efficacy per lvl" rather than just a straight eHP bonus? just tossing it out there I originally had that on the list, but changed it because of the possibilities of trickle down effect. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3206	Posted - 2014.08.17 17:41:00 - [44] - Quote daily bump SP Sinks? Fixed.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3216	Posted - 2014.08.19 02:37:00 - [45] - Quote daily bump SP Sinks? Fixed.
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 33	Posted - 2014.08.19 02:42:00 - [46] - Quote I think another thing to add that would make a good difference is lowering the SP cost of eWAR based skills. Minmatar suits as a car chassis, Gallente suits for the plates, Caldari suits for shield, and Amarr suits for the seats.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3885	Posted - 2014.08.19 02:43:00 - [47] - Quote I think this would be quite cool. And i've shown this to my fellow council bro's. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12961	Posted - 2014.08.19 02:45:00 - [48] - Quote HAV Operation........ I only have Lvl 1 in it......why does it not do something like increase PG and CPU of HAV by 1-2% per level. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3217	Posted - 2014.08.19 02:59:00 - [49] - Quote True Adamance wrote: HAV Operation........ I only have Lvl 1 in it......why does it not do something like increase PG and CPU of HAV by 1-2% per level. I very rarely touch vehicles, so I'm not much of an authority on how many SP sinks they have, or even what kind of bonuses they should get....but if you want to write up some in the same format I have, I'd be more than willing to add them to the OP. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Eurydice Itzhak Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 380	Posted - 2014.08.19 06:11:00 - [50] - Quote Sometimes I'll have a bad day, and then I'll come to the dust forums and see a bunch of people arguing about balance over an abandoned dead game. It really brightens my day. Stay pathetic people :)

Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3218	Posted - 2014.08.19 06:22:00 - [51] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Sometimes I'll have a bad day, and then I'll come to the dust forums and see a bunch of people arguing about balance over an abandoned dead game. It really brightens my day. Stay pathetic people :) Well, thanks for bumping my thread I guess. SP Sinks? Fixed.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 197	Posted - 2014.08.19 06:33:00 - [52] - Quote Dam I've been playing for awhile and didn't know about min shield bonus

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5445	Posted - 2014.08.19 07:13:00 - [53] - Quote This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 4051	Posted - 2014.08.19 07:16:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta Where are the stickies for hotfix delta anyway, Charlie is still up. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3221	Posted - 2014.08.19 07:28:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta I'll go ahead and copy paste it there, though I put it here originally just because I get so many more people to respond in General Discussions than I do in Feedback/Requests. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2231	Posted - 2014.08.19 07:53:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta I'm shocked. I have never seen a dev respond to a thread about these skills. Ever.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4716	Posted - 2014.08.19 08:03:00 - [57] - Quote I agree with everything, more or less.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 375	Posted - 2014.08.19 08:26:00 - [58] - Quote Why not make skills like Dropsuite Command and Basic Dropsuites give a bonus to Basic Frames? I have always been annoyed that Basic Frames (ex Caldari Medium Frame) don't get any bonus what so ever, which makes them not very usable in the field. For me there is little point to skill up beyond level 3 to unlock the specialised suites. This would also be of great benefit to New Players, and minimal (if at all) to Vets.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5445	Posted - 2014.08.19 09:42:00 - [59] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta I'm shocked. I have never seen a dev respond to a thread about these skills. Ever. I love lamp "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

NAV HIV The Generals Anime Empire. 1972	Posted - 2014.08.19 12:48:00 - [60] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: So we know there are a significant amount of SP sinks in the skill tree currently, and I'd like to propose a fix to it. This is in General Discussions since these are my musings, and I want input before I ask they be made. First, which skills are in need of bonuses? Here are the skills (infantry only, since I have no intimate knowledge of vehicles) that have little or no use. Dropsuit Command All basic dropsuit skills (12 total) Dropsuit Upgrades Weaponry So, a total of 15 skills that need bonuses. To save my self a lot of typing for every bonus, let me say here that for each basic suit skill, the skill only applies to the suits that are under that skill, example: Amarr Heavy Dropsuit skill only applies to Amarr heavy basic suits, Amarr sentinels, and Amarr commandos. Here are my thoughts: Dropsuit Command +2% base shield and armor per level Dropsuit Upgrades +0.2 armor repair per level Weaponry +2% all weapon reload speed per level Amarr Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor from armor plates and ferroscale plates per level Amarr Light Dropsuit -2% CPU/PG cost of laser weaponry per level Amarr Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor plates and ferroscale plates Caldari Heavy Dropsuits +2% shield from shield extenders per level Caldari Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of rail weaponry per level Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield extenders and shield rechargers per level Gallente Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor repair module rate and reactive plate repair per level Gallente Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of plasma weaponry per level Gallente Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor repair modules and reactive plates per level Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% biotic module effects per level Minmatar Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of biotic modules per level Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield regulators and shield energizers per level Please share your thoughts/comments, this is a rough draft, after all. it is a Good Idea... There are few Skills trees for vehicles too which needs some sort of Bonus... But the Numbers you have suggested are too high... CCP will never go with it...

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1582	Posted - 2014.08.19 13:22:00 - [61] - Quote In effect your proposal creates more SP sinks than removes them. If a skill has a bonus behind it, then it will be utilized. The main problem in your proposal is that currently the non-racial dropsuit skills provide no benefit after level 3. If they had a bonus associated with them, it would be important to increase those to level 5, therefore creating another SP sink; not removing one. Removing SP sinks would mean removing skills or lowering the amount of SP required to unlock things. Something like, being able to use prototype weapons even at the lower end of the tree. So once you unlock the skills to get assault rifle for example, you can use all the assault rifles. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 471	Posted - 2014.08.19 13:49:00 - [62] - Quote Yay! More ways for newer players to get the **** kicked out of them by the sp disparity!!!! Who wanted us to ever break 4k players again, anyways? I'm really hoping if Legion does one thing right, they scrap the SP system and just stick to risk vs. reward on isk based gear. I somehow doubt that though, and everyone will be wondering why Legion fails after a year or two of play and the new player retention sky rockets again. Assuming SP gets reset, if they keep the current sp accumulation for Legion the game is immediately going to nosedive on new player retention when all the PC players get wrecked by the Dust players that make the transition. Creating a dynamic matchmaking system without hundreds of thousands to millions of active players is an unrealistic goal and new players will get sick of killing drones unless pve in Legion is a full fledged stand alone thing. I would be willing to bet players are already getting sick of the Destiny pve, but Destiny doesn't have a leveling system like Eve/Dust if I'm not mistaken. I thought their system was like WoW's so once everyone reaches max level that's when the game actually begins on a competitive level. Unfortunately with Dust's sp system that will never really happen before the plug is pulled.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3242	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:03:00 - [63] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Yay! More ways for newer players to get the **** kicked out of them by the sp disparity!!!! lots of words that have nothing to do with the OP Are you aware that you HAVE to put points into these skills just to get to other skills? This would have no effect on SP disparity, as everybody is already putting SP into these skills just to move on to the next. This would actually help NPE, as it would allow them to get more effect out of the small SP pool they start with, instead of wasting a large portion of their SP on filler skills. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3242	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:07:00 - [64] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: In effect your proposal creates more SP sinks than removes them. If a skill has a bonus behind it, then it will be utilized. The main problem in your proposal is that currently the non-racial dropsuit skills provide no benefit after level 3. If they had a bonus associated with them, it would be important to increase those to level 5, therefore creating another SP sink; not removing one. Removing SP sinks would mean removing skills or lowering the amount of SP required to unlock things. Something like, being able to use prototype weapons even at the lower end of the tree. So once you unlock the skills to get assault rifle for example, you can use all the assault rifles. Alright mr. politically correct. You could instead say that this removes the filler skills, where you only put into them to get to a further point in the tree. If they had passive bonuses, you would skill into them for the sake of skilling into them, instead of just putting the mandatory minimum required SP then moving on. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2237	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:17:00 - [65] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: In effect your proposal creates more SP sinks than removes them. If a skill has a bonus behind it, then it will be utilized. The main problem in your proposal is that currently the non-racial dropsuit skills provide no benefit after level 3. If they had a bonus associated with them, it would be important to increase those to level 5, therefore creating another SP sink; not removing one. Removing SP sinks would mean removing skills or lowering the amount of SP required to unlock things. Something like, being able to use prototype weapons even at the lower end of the tree. So once you unlock the skills to get assault rifle for example, you can use all the assault rifles. There's a wide gulf of difference between having to spend a crapton of SP on dead SP sinks and making the dead SP sinks actually worth a sh**. Logi Bro I love ya but I think the dropsuit skills need to be simplified. Like having the frame skills provide a race-wide boost. Like all the gallente frame skills apply +5%/level to efficacy of repair modules and reactive plates, amarr reducing the plate speed penalty by 5%/level (God knows they need no more buffer), Caldari adds 5%/level to shield regeneration rate and minmatar all get 5% to efficacy of biotics. Make it basic, and make it clear what the differences are in each race's strengths from the get-go
Tectonic Fusion 2022	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:22:00 - [66] - Quote I don't agree with any of the skills, but decent effort. I like you even though I don't.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 351	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:24:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This could be stickied in Feedback and Ideas - this is relevant to our interests but not necessarily for Delta I'm shocked. I have never seen a dev respond to a thread about these skills. Ever. I love lamp Loud noises Lonewolf till I die
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:30:00 - [68] - Quote Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2887	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:34:00 - [69] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 472	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:41:00 - [70] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Yay! More ways for newer players to get the **** kicked out of them by the sp disparity!!!! lots of words that have nothing to do with the OP Are you aware that you HAVE to put points into these skills just to get to other skills? This would have no effect on SP disparity, as everybody is already putting SP into these skills just to move on to the next. This would actually help NPE, as it would allow them to get more effect out of the small SP pool they start with, instead of wasting a large portion of their SP on filler skills. >New players come with all the sp sinks on their characters. Oh okay... I didn't realize you were proposing to give all the new players more than 500k sp for all those sp sinks that are getting turned into buffs, my bad. If you actually weren't planning this, then you should reread what I just quoted from you and reconsider your logical reasoning. EVENTUALLY, yes new players will have all those buffs. EVENTUALLY, i'll have every skill at 5. Inb4 CCP pulls the plug on Dust. This would do nothing but widen the gap between a new player and a vet. What I said still stands, you just didn't put points into logic.

Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:56:00 - [71] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 10% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places).
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:10:00 - [72] - Quote Then there is the separate issue that this basically amounts to 'fitting inflation'. All the work Rattati and others have done to balance fitting (e.g. on heavies in charlie) would go out the window as everyone would basically get a load of extra fitting optimization worth millions of SP for free. It was BORING when my sentinel could fit proto FG, proto SMG, proto AV nades, and proto everything else. This would be a step back in that direction. Fitting is a big part of the game, which you lose if you have so much CPU/PG that you don't need to make compromises.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2888	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:14:00 - [73] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places). Fair point. Well the actual bonuses he picked set aside, I think the idea of making every skill offer some kind of benefit is a good idea. I think we're all pretty jaded because we've already made the investment into other skills for reasons you listed. Even so let's look at it from a newer player's perspective. For an example, what does Caldari Medium Frame Level 2 earn you? The right to train level 3, and that's it. To a new player thats really frustrating because they grind for the SP and feel like they should get something for their effort, not just the right to grind more for the next level. And even for veteran players, there are so many skills that don't require level 4 or 5 to be trained at all, so why are they there? I like the idea of them offering small bonuses that vets can optimize their character using their vast SP pool, but also offer newer players some immediate benefit with those low level skills that currently only unlock other skills. So let me ask you this, if you had a respec (and I know that probably won't happen, but we're speaking conceptually there) would you support a system like this know you could put additional points into lower skills and perhaps not into the higher one if your particular fit/playstyle didnt need it, but you still had the option to optimize if you wanted?
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1574	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:37:00 - [74] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places). Fair point. Well the actual bonuses he picked set aside, I think the idea of making every skill offer some kind of benefit is a good idea. I think we're all pretty jaded because we've already made the investment into other skills for reasons you listed. Even so let's look at it from a newer player's perspective. For an example, what does Caldari Medium Frame Level 2 earn you? The right to train level 3, and that's it. To a new player thats really frustrating because they grind for the SP and feel like they should get something for their effort, not just the right to grind more for the next level. And even for veteran players, there are so many skills that don't require level 4 or 5 to be trained at all, so why are they there? I like the idea of them offering small bonuses that vets can optimize their character using their vast SP pool, but also offer newer players some immediate benefit with those low level skills that currently only unlock other skills. So let me ask you this, if you had a respec (and I know that probably won't happen, but we're speaking conceptually there) would you support a system like this know you could put additional points into lower skills and perhaps not into the higher one if your particular fit/playstyle didnt need it, but you still had the option to optimize if you wanted? Everything you say is very reasonable. And regarding your final question, I think something like this would be fine in the hypothetical scenario of a respec.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2888	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:42:00 - [75] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Everything you say is very reasonable. And regarding your final question, I think something like this would be fine in the hypothetical scenario of a respec. Well at the very least I hope to see a skill system in Legion where every skill level offers some sort of bonus. As for Dust you do raise a pretty valid point about how it would affect veterans, so I can understand the concern. If something like this was implimented, I might agree that a respec would be in order. But also as someone else pointed out, at this point the addition of such bonuses could tip the fragile balance that the Ratatti team has been working on, so again this concept may be best reserved for Legion. Nevertheless I think it is a very good concept and should be seriously looked at by the team.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3255	Posted - 2014.08.20 21:22:00 - [76] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places). Your argument has very little merit with that example. Besides the fact that ScR optimization provides a far greater PG reduction than the Amarr light frame skills does, and will always be useful for as long as you have an ScR equipped, you also have to consider that the CPU/PG reduction will allow you to upgrade things besides the weapon. If you skilled into ScR optimization because your suit literally could not fit it without the PG reduction, and then you skill into Amarr light frame afterwards, then now you can use your extra CPU/PG to change out a basic ferroscale plate with an enhanced one, or something else along those lines. Therefore, it doesn't devalue your invested skills, it just adds to them. As far as your SP sink argument, levels 4-5 SHOULD be an SP sink for veteran players. Those levels would provide only a small bonus for a large SP requirement, skilling into those last 2 levels would be optimizing their fits only, whereas the first three levels are skills that are MANDATORY for everyone to put into just to get to specialized suits. To sum up that paragraph, having these bonuses would make levels 1-3 of the basic frame skills actually worth skilling into, since people have to skill into them anyways, and levels 4-5 would be more of an end-game investment. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 216	Posted - 2014.08.20 21:45:00 - [77] - Quote I think the values need to be carefully considered, but I like the general idea. others to add to the list (that are less critical since they at least give access to better equipment): grenades explosives all equipment (NH, DL, RT, etc)
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3255	Posted - 2014.08.20 21:47:00 - [78] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: >New players come with all the sp sinks on their characters. Oh okay... I didn't realize you were proposing to give all the new players more than 500k sp for all those sp sinks that are getting turned into buffs, my bad. If you actually weren't planning this, then you should reread what I just quoted from you and reconsider your logical reasoning. EVENTUALLY, yes new players will have all those buffs. EVENTUALLY, i'll have every skill at 5. Inb4 CCP pulls the plug on Dust. This would do nothing but widen the gap between a new player and a vet. What I said still stands, you just didn't put points into logic. I don't think you understand the point I am trying to make, let me break it down. Let's say there is a new player. He is given his 500k starting SP, but he's a smart guy, so he plays around with militia fits without spending any of it. After playing for a while, he decides that he wants to play sentinel. In order to play sentinel he HAS to put at least level 3 in dropsuit command to unlock heavy frame skills, at least level 3 of a heavy frame skill to unlock a sentinel skill, and level 5 in weaponry to unlock heavy weapon operation. Those are just the basics. He will also need to put in at least level 4 in dropsuit upgrades to unlock all the useful core skills. Three of those skills are literally worthless, the fourth is meh. Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Weaponry are all 1x skills, if I remember correctly, that means they cost ~310k SP to get to 5, and half as much to get to 4. So he spent ~310k SP to get Weaponry to 5, ~155k SP to get Dropsuit Upgrades to 4, and ~87k SP to get Dropsuit Command to 3. So ~552k into skills that do absolutely nothing for him. The basic frame skills are x4 skills, off the top of my head I believe that is ~300k to get to level 3. So a total of ~852k SP in skills that have little or no use. That's more than the starting SP amount, to get practically no benefit at all. So yes, these bonuses would definitely improve NPE. SP Sinks? Fixed.
ladwar HEARTS OF PHOENIX 2057	Posted - 2014.08.20 22:40:00 - [79] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: So we know there are a significant amount of SP sinks in the skill tree currently, and I'd like to propose a fix to it. This is in General Discussions since these are my musings, and I want input before I ask they be made. First, which skills are in need of bonuses? Here are the skills (infantry only, since I have no intimate knowledge of vehicles) that have little or no use. Dropsuit Command All basic dropsuit skills (12 total) Dropsuit Upgrades Weaponry So, a total of 15 skills that need bonuses. To save my self a lot of typing for every bonus, let me say here that for each basic suit skill, the skill only applies to the suits that are under that skill, example: Amarr Heavy Dropsuit skill only applies to Amarr heavy basic suits, Amarr sentinels, and Amarr commandos. Here are my thoughts: Dropsuit Command +2% base shield and armor per level Dropsuit Upgrades +0.2 armor repair per level Weaponry +2% all weapon reload speed per level Amarr Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor from armor plates and ferroscale plates per level Amarr Light Dropsuit -2% CPU/PG cost of laser weaponry per level Amarr Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor plates and ferroscale plates Caldari Heavy Dropsuits +2% shield from shield extenders per level Caldari Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of rail weaponry per level Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield extenders and shield rechargers per level Gallente Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor repair module rate and reactive plate repair per level Gallente Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of plasma weaponry per level Gallente Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor repair modules and reactive plates per level Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% biotic module effects per level Minmatar Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of biotic modules per level Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield regulators and shield energizers per level Please share your thoughts/comments, this is a rough draft, after all. Well i like your thinking and i like most some could be changed like caldari light to buff precision modules. Work in progress to find the best fitting bonuses Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?
MEDICO RITARDATO Dead Man's Game 265	Posted - 2014.08.26 06:41:00 - [80] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% biotic module effects per level. This. CCP why do you hate shield???

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1697	Posted - 2014.08.26 16:37:00 - [81] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: In effect your proposal creates more SP sinks than removes them. If a skill has a bonus behind it, then it will be utilized. The main problem in your proposal is that currently the non-racial dropsuit skills provide no benefit after level 3. If they had a bonus associated with them, it would be important to increase those to level 5, therefore creating another SP sink; not removing one. Removing SP sinks would mean removing skills or lowering the amount of SP required to unlock things. Something like, being able to use prototype weapons even at the lower end of the tree. So once you unlock the skills to get assault rifle for example, you can use all the assault rifles. Alright mr. politically correct. You could instead say that this removes the filler skills, where you only put into them to get to a further point in the tree. If they had passive bonuses, you would skill into them for the sake of skilling into them, instead of just putting the mandatory minimum required SP then moving on. Correct, but you are creating more places for SP to go. Therefore creating sinks. I don't think you understand the definition of an sp sink. I don't mind having skills mean something when skilled. But you are still making the hurdle larger for low sp players. Not only that but CCP would never give us "free" bonuses. Instead to get your racial frame to current standard you would probably need to skill both racial and non racial dropsuit command skills to five. Therefore creating a larger sp sink for the same effect. Reducing multipliers, cost of skills, or allowing items to be used earlier would ease the burden of sp. To reduce the sink means to slow the flow. Creating more skills bonuses just increases that hole. Ex: CCP decides to create more items on the market that are officer variety. Would this increase or decrease the amount of isk in circulation.........decrease correct! Adding things to sink sp into, increases the sink in the same way. Even if those sp are providing a bonus. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3284	Posted - 2014.08.31 02:04:00 - [82] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Correct, but you are creating more places for SP to go. Therefore creating sinks. I don't think you understand the definition of an sp sink. I don't mind having skills mean something when skilled. But you are still making the hurdle larger for low sp players. Not only that but CCP would never give us "free" bonuses. Instead to get your racial frame to current standard you would probably need to skill both racial and non racial dropsuit command skills to five. Therefore creating a larger sp sink for the same effect. Reducing multipliers, cost of skills, or allowing items to be used earlier would ease the burden of sp. To reduce the sink means to slow the flow. Creating more skills bonuses just increases that hole. Ex: CCP decides to create more items on the market that are officer variety. Would this increase or decrease the amount of isk in circulation.........decrease correct! Adding things to sink sp into, increases the sink in the same way. Even if those sp are providing a bonus. I actually revised my statement in a reply to someone else....let me give a summary. As it stands, you HAVE to skill to level three of basic suits to get to the specialized variants. Whether or not you actually use the suits given to you by the skill is irrelevant, it is a mandatory skill with little or no use. However, with these bonuses, you are actually benefiting for a reason other than unlocking the suits. Your SP was wasted in that skill, because it did nothing for you. But after these bonuses, you benefit from the SP invested, however small the benefit is. And yes, this does mean you need to get levels 4 and 5 to maximize your suit to the fullest, and that does increase the SP investment. BUT I believe that those two levels should do that. They should be a skill for veteran players, who want to improve their favorite fit and have SP to spare. A small boost for the sake of optimization, not a skill that is necessary in order to compete. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3326	Posted - 2014.09.03 06:18:00 - [83] - Quote bump SP Sinks? Fixed.


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Clone Wars forever #Starwars: Battlefront 3

Clone Wars forever #Starwars: Battlefront 3