DUST Search - Putting passive bonuses where there aren't any. (Rough Draft)

Ryme Intrinseca wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Ryme Intrinseca wrote:

Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry.

How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP?

And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players.

Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places).


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2554	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:42:00 - [1] - Quote General concept is solid. Most of the bonuses are solid. The Weaponry one jumps out at me as slightly problematic but let me take a closer look over my lunch hour. Still overall excellent work. All skills should offer SOME kind of bonus, even if its small.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2844	Posted - 2014.08.15 22:32:00 - [2] - Quote Nestil wrote: I say "no" to your suggestions. this we would only increase the gab between high and low SP players. everyone has to skill into them if he wants better gear..so it's fair... The purpose is primarily to make it so players don't feel like there are 'lost' skill levels, and gives purpose for many skills that dont require level 4-5 for anything, or unlock skills that offer nothing for levels 2 and 4. New players in particular see skills like and see them as just wastes of SP. Why have a level 2 and 4 if they don't do anything? In an ideal world, every single skill and skill level would give some sort of bonus. OP is on the right track with this one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2887	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:34:00 - [3] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2888	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:14:00 - [4] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Every change to the skill tree devalues the SP investments players have made in their character. They should only happen to address in-game imbalances. This addresses no such thing and seems like a change for the sake of it. I'm sure you mean well but I think it's a pretty bad idea, sorry. How does it devalue it if the skills affected are ones people have already trained? The SP you spend on them now earns additional bonuses, doesn't that increase the value of the SP? And it's not just a change for the sake of it, the idea is so that new players playing the game actually feel like the SP they're spending early on is doing more than just unlocking more skills to train. It's a big complaint of new players. Here's one example of many. Suppose you have level 3 in amarr light suits. You really needed to save PG to fit your optimum loadout so you spent loads on scrambler rifle fitting optimization. Suddenly the skills are changed and you are getting 6% PG from the amarr light skills, and turns out you wasted 1 million SP in fitting optimization. Your choice, which was a good one at the time, is turned into a bad one by the seemingly innocuous change to the skill tree. Your SP investment is devalued. In fact, the OP achieves the opposite of what he sets out to do - he creates SP sinks (SP trapped in useless places). Fair point. Well the actual bonuses he picked set aside, I think the idea of making every skill offer some kind of benefit is a good idea. I think we're all pretty jaded because we've already made the investment into other skills for reasons you listed. Even so let's look at it from a newer player's perspective. For an example, what does Caldari Medium Frame Level 2 earn you? The right to train level 3, and that's it. To a new player thats really frustrating because they grind for the SP and feel like they should get something for their effort, not just the right to grind more for the next level. And even for veteran players, there are so many skills that don't require level 4 or 5 to be trained at all, so why are they there? I like the idea of them offering small bonuses that vets can optimize their character using their vast SP pool, but also offer newer players some immediate benefit with those low level skills that currently only unlock other skills. So let me ask you this, if you had a respec (and I know that probably won't happen, but we're speaking conceptually there) would you support a system like this know you could put additional points into lower skills and perhaps not into the higher one if your particular fit/playstyle didnt need it, but you still had the option to optimize if you wanted?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2888	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:42:00 - [5] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Everything you say is very reasonable. And regarding your final question, I think something like this would be fine in the hypothetical scenario of a respec. Well at the very least I hope to see a skill system in Legion where every skill level offers some sort of bonus. As for Dust you do raise a pretty valid point about how it would affect veterans, so I can understand the concern. If something like this was implimented, I might agree that a respec would be in order. But also as someone else pointed out, at this point the addition of such bonuses could tip the fragile balance that the Ratatti team has been working on, so again this concept may be best reserved for Legion. Nevertheless I think it is a very good concept and should be seriously looked at by the team.