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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11220	Posted - 2014.06.28 17:05:00 - [1] - Quote When 1.7's FW system came out, I made this thread which then got ignored for 6 months, but now that the messiah Rattati has emerged, there is now some chance of feedback actually being taken into consideration. [Comparison] A purely ISK-bought standard fitting: STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 11,850 ISK Now the same standard fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ A purely ISK-bought prototype fitting: scout mk.0 Freedom mass driver Six Kin SMG Complex shield extender Complex shield recharger Complex sidearm damage mod Complex armor rep Complex armor plate Complex codebreaker Cost: 155,760 ISK Now the same prototype fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): Republic scout mk.0 Republic Freedom mass driver Republic Six Kin SMG Republic complex shield extender Republic complex shield recharger Republic complex sidearm damage mod Federation complex armor rep Federation complex armor plate Federation complex codebreaker Cost: 805 LP (580 Republic / 225 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ [Problem] ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K ISK depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 05.91-33.76 full fits of the STD ISK fitting. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 00.45-02.57 full fits of the PRO ISK fitting. LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 LP depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP. With the LP rewards you can buy between 01.63-03.30 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. With the LP rewards you can buy between 00.41-00.82 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. See any problem with that? ISK rewards let you buy 6-33 standard fits, or 1/2-2 prototype. LP rewards even for a victory with level 10 standing can only buy you 3 equivalent standard, or less than 1 equivalent prototype fits. The very best FW rewards are still awful compared to the very worst public Skirmish reward. LP rewards comparatively suck for buying low tier stuff, and sucks for buying high tier stuff as well. No player market will eve be coming for Dust, so the whole "you will be able to profit from FW by selling LP items" argument is completely dead. Even if you could sell LP items you bought, items bought with a level 10 standing victory LP reward would have to be priced around 6 that of ISK-bought equivalents just to match the rewards of an average Skirmish (I covered why 6x it in the original thread I linked). [Solution] FW is high risk: practically no pay for losses, no standings gain for losses, and friendly fire. High risk should come with high reward. If a loss is worth close to nothing, a victory should be almost equivalent to twice the average Skirmish payout. This could be done by A) Increase both victory and defeat LP rewards by 5x. This would mean that a victory with 0 standing to buy 8 STD fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy 6-33 STD fits), this would make it at least better than AFK farming in a public Skirmish. With a level 10 standings victory, you could buy around 4 PRO fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy over 2 PRO fits). B) add the same (or reduced) public battle ISK rewards to FW in addition to LP rewards. Why should high risk come with lower rewards? [Somewhat related] LP store is lacking a ton of stuff: Caldari scout, Cal sentinel, Cal commando, magsec, bolt pistol. Minmatar scout, Min sentinel, Min commando, standard and advanced combat rifles. Gallente sentinel, Gal commando, ion pistol. Amarr scout. Some weapons have both a PRO specialist and less expensive non-specialist variants (SCR), while others only have the expensive specialist variant as an option (AR); all PRO LP weapons should have both a specialist and a non-specialist version. Imperial commando AK.0 still has a sidearm in addition to the 2 light weapon slots. No other prototype LP suit has this extra advantage over regular ISK proto, so I assume this is unintentional. Thank you for reading. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10512	Posted - 2014.06.28 17:15:00 - [2] - Quote +100 meow A simple "sell" option would also work, so you could buy LP items and then allow us to sell them for ISK at a good price. Would solve a LOT of problems at the same time. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 382	Posted - 2014.06.28 17:34:00 - [3] - Quote I'd also note that (I've I stated before), that a ton of vehicle stuff is either not even in the LP store (every last module, specialist turrets), or is broken (vehicles having turrets pre-equipped).
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3582	Posted - 2014.06.28 19:10:00 - [4] - Quote I'll just throw this on top of the pile too: Can we please at least have a token standings increase for high performers in a loss? Even just 10 points would make it a lot less infuriating to drop 3x as many WP as the #2 person on the board and get essentially nothing for it. 1 standings point for every 100 WP, a set number of points for the top few people on the leaderboard, something! Throw the Amarr and Caldari a bone here! (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 637	Posted - 2014.06.28 20:38:00 - [5] - Quote I recently wrote this thread on a similar topic. FW needs to be worth the effort economically, pub contracts should not be economically viable when protostomping. The solution is to pump up the FW rewards while flattening the standings<->payout curve and then equalizing the rewards in public matches at a lower level, like an average payout of ~125k ISK.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11223	Posted - 2014.06.28 21:20:00 - [6] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just throw this on top of the pile too: Can we please at least have a token standings increase for high performers in a loss? Even just 10 points would make it a lot less infuriating to drop 3x as many WP as the #2 person on the board and get essentially nothing for it. 1 standings point for every 100 WP, a set number of points for the top few people on the leaderboard, something! Throw the Amarr and Caldari a bone here! I support Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Harpyja Legio DXIV 1957	Posted - 2014.06.28 21:47:00 - [7] - Quote I too have noticed that pubs provide much better payouts than FW. You can buy a lot more assets of equal meta levels in pubs than from FW. I'd also like to add my thoughts here. I think that LP rewards should also reward top contributors better than those at the bottom of the scoreboard. Doesn't make sense that someone who AFK's in the MCC gets the exact same rewards as someone who gets 2000 WP and probably captured 10 objectives. It should also provide incentive to Caldari/Amarr to actually try instead of just sit in the redline doing nothing as soon as they get redlined the first few minutes of the match. (And also to provide a better reward for those 5% that actually try and score several times higher than the second or third place player on the team) I have a discussion started on it here. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
MINA Longstrike 928	Posted - 2014.06.28 22:45:00 - [8] - Quote To reward top performers LP payouts should be increased by say 1% for every 10 wp's earned. If you're consistently earning 1000-3000 wp's you're earning 100-300% more LP. This also heavily incentivises the use of drop uplinks, rep tools, scanners and nanohives. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
jerrmy12 kahoalii New Age Empire. 1578	Posted - 2014.06.28 22:50:00 - [9] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: To reward top performers LP payouts should be increased by say 1% for every 10 wp's earned. If you're consistently earning 1000-3000 wp's you're earning 100-300% more LP. This also heavily incentivises the use of drop uplinks, rep tools, scanners and nanohives. Base payout needs increasing first. Closed beta vet. If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11227	Posted - 2014.06.29 03:13:00 - [10] - Quote /me wonders if I'll have to make this into a spreadsheet for Rattati to read it Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

jerrmy12 kahoalii New Age Empire. 1579	Posted - 2014.06.29 03:18:00 - [11] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: /me wonders if I'll have to make this into a spreadsheet for Rattati to read it Yes, you do. Closed beta vet. If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 775	Posted - 2014.06.30 02:44:00 - [12] - Quote I hope this gets done while I'm still vaguely interested in Dust. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11360	Posted - 2014.06.30 03:17:00 - [13] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: I hope this gets done while I'm still vaguely interested in Dust. I'd like to see STB back fighting for the Minmatar ...... you guys were a good fight back in the day. " We need to reclaim their fates and envelop them in ours. And we need to love them, no matter how much it hurts."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11240	Posted - 2014.07.01 15:17:00 - [14] - Quote I want moar LP Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11250	Posted - 2014.07.04 07:37:00 - [15] - Quote /me hears crickets Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3519	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:48:00 - [16] - Quote Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6146	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:51:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3519	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:54:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6146	Posted - 2014.07.05 03:05:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. What's your thoughts? Increasing the LP rewards while retaining ISK cost on items? Removing ISK costs? Give us some details, yo! Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD 185	Posted - 2014.07.05 03:08:00 - [20] - Quote There should be an isk payout as well. Not as much as the pubs though. About half of the isk payout as the pubs. Also, the loyalty point payout is too low?! "Anybody order chaos?"

MINA Longstrike 965	Posted - 2014.07.05 03:14:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. If I might add a suggestion - a 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3617	Posted - 2014.07.05 04:09:00 - [22] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. What's your thoughts? Increasing the LP rewards while retaining ISK cost on items? Removing ISK costs? Give us some details, yo! Yes, details plz. Do not underestimate the impact of better rewards for a good loss, either. Without that, Amarr and Caldari will still languish, with top heavy armies led by valiant Champions doomed to being dragged down by the hordes of incompetent cannon fodder with whom they are forced to fight. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2386	Posted - 2014.07.05 04:12:00 - [23] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: If I might add a suggestion - a 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. Mighty generous of you there, Mina. Pro Tip: 0.1% isn't very much. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
MINA Longstrike 965	Posted - 2014.07.05 04:58:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: If I might add a suggestion - a 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. Mighty generous of you there, Mina. Pro Tip: 0.1% isn't very much. 1000 wp = 100% payout increase Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2387	Posted - 2014.07.05 05:28:00 - [25] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: If I might add a suggestion - a 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. Mighty generous of you there, Mina. Pro Tip: 0.1% isn't very much. 1000 wp = 100% payout increase 100% increase =/= 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. The former could be more easily said as "doubling" payout. The latter -- as previously explained -- is equivalent to a payout increase of 0.1%. Are you suggesting something somewhere in between these two extremes? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
jaksol exendent Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.07.05 05:28:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. risk like blue berrys shotguning me in the face or shoting my proto suit with a tank
Gabriel Ceja Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 11	Posted - 2014.07.05 06:18:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. Not only the increase in participation but hopefully it will finally give the caldari and the amar something to fight for. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
MINA Longstrike 965	Posted - 2014.07.05 06:26:00 - [28] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: If I might add a suggestion - a 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. Mighty generous of you there, Mina. Pro Tip: 0.1% isn't very much. 1000 wp = 100% payout increase 100% increase =/= 1% increase in payout per 10 wp earned. The former could be more easily said as "doubling" payout. The latter -- as previously explained -- is equivalent to a payout increase of 0.1%. Are you suggesting something somewhere in between these two extremes? I'm suggesting that people get rewarded for their participation and effort a 1% increase of payout per every 10 wp earned is a good start and let's them dial in to a good number. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
iKILLu osborne Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 45	Posted - 2014.07.05 06:38:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. i would like to see some kind of reward for reaching lvl.10 in a faction such as a bpo, in my eyes it would really kickstart fw (yes i'm lvl 10 cal , you can put lvl 10 ppl like me on a waiting period before we get our bpo) Just an idea doesn't seem much point in playing fw but with that^ and increased payout might get me back into it here is a joke, so an amarr scout walks in lol
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 403	Posted - 2014.07.05 09:39:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. its not your fault, but tossing sugar on a steaming pile of crap isnt going to fix anything. FW is still a mess. we cant coordinate anything as a corp or with eve players. not being able to choose where we fight is another issue. and none of these problems have been solved.

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 312	Posted - 2014.07.05 12:54:00 - [31] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just throw this on top of the pile too: Can we please at least have a token standings increase for high performers in a loss? Even just 10 points would make it a lot less infuriating to drop 3x as many WP as the #2 person on the board and get essentially nothing for it. 1 standings point for every 100 WP, a set number of points for the top few people on the leaderboard, something! Throw the Amarr and Caldari a bone here! I support this idea... But disagree with giving those pious Amarrian bastards any bones. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 26	Posted - 2014.07.05 18:57:00 - [32] - Quote Obviously payouts need to be greater, however this should reflect player performance, the suggestions made by Mina are a good place to start. This is important as fw needs to be competitive, dont just let ppl run mlt gear and milk more LP with no risk. Giving people a bonus LP related to wp encourages more activity in battle, also since losers get significantly less, it won't just be link spamming job done, pay me! What we will (hopefully) have is two teams going at it full throttle, with the overall adjectives being thus; 1. Claiming victory with minimal loss of fittings(raising profitability and ensuring victory payout) 2.Maximum destruction of enemy fittings to maximize loot and wp (also as a long term act of attrition) 3.maximum accumulation of wp to increase bonus LP ( making the battle more profitable) And so hopefully we end with a bridge between pubs and pc, where mercs are happy to run expensive fits with the goal of a well played match which ends in victory. Resulting in plenty of LP for the Merc who actions result in victory, and hardly any for those who lose (sorry frogs). As an afterthought the faction could give the victorious mercs a small random selection of faction gear.in their loot pile. P.S. Please can dust mercs have access somehow to eve fw milita channels, (unlocked at a standing level..??) We need easier ways to recruit OB pilots without playing eve ourselves Glory to The State and Her Allies Caldari Scout/Sentinel- Closed Beta Player Born, raised and trained under the shadow of Kaalakiota Corp HQ
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 205	Posted - 2014.07.06 05:54:00 - [33] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just throw this on top of the pile too: Can we please at least have a token standings increase for high performers in a loss? Even just 10 points would make it a lot less infuriating to drop 3x as many WP as the #2 person on the board and get essentially nothing for it. 1 standings point for every 100 WP, a set number of points for the top few people on the leaderboard, something! Throw the Amarr and Caldari a bone here! I support this idea... But disagree with giving those pious Amarrian bastards any bones. but you support the Caldari?? after all the Federation has done to ensure you guys got freedom from the Amarr during the uprising??? Yes, Caldari dont really like Amarr either, but Cal/Amarr are still considered to be allies. The Gallente/Minmatar are allies, but we really arent supposed to hate each other the the Cal/Amarr do. Every suit Gk.0 <3 Gallente Federation Patriot
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11643	Posted - 2014.07.06 06:34:00 - [34] - Quote Okay this is my kind of discussion. For those who don't know I have been an avid Factional Warfare player for a very long time and have more recently also taken to EVE as well to fight further for my chosen Faction. Now while I understand this is a discussion purely about what can be done to improve the state of Factional Warfare in Dust with minimalistic changes I have to make one of two comments about perhaps the way things are in EVE, or how they feel in EVE. With this being said I am all for making Factional Warfare a more viable and enticing game mode. Prior inception of Dust side Loyalty points PIE Inc ground forces would regularly see themselves involved in long sessions of pretty bitter fighting against a number of enemy Loyalist corporations. However since the introduction of LP those groups have all but left the mode for PC and or choose public matches over FW ques. This is also partially due to the mode not feeling rewarding. FW as a Rewarding Gamemode To make FW more populated players need to feel like their efforts are rewarded and currently it does not feel like the efforts put into FW are ever truly worth it for the average player, beyond the modes semi organised and semi competitive state. Most players don't truly get to understand their effects of FW, or even what their battles mean for pilots, so while it makes it a primary effort for group like PIE Inc to fight and win their ground battles as well as provide orbital support......it doesn't mean much to other groups. On a regular basis I might commit several HAV and dropsuits. Proto Commando- 200K+ ISK HAV- 500K+ ISK My payout for this game mode is 500LP...... that would buy me 4 + the ISK required Imperial Complex Armour Plates. I use almost 2 per suit. That is not an equal reward for the efforts I and many others put in for their chosen faction. How to Fix the Issue and Possible Concerns To fix the issue the rewards must make players feel like their contributions are worth while, their action are significant, and the rewards they can draw from the battle are worth queuing for. Introducing ISK as a reward will not do this. I feel it will either -Not be enough to entice players into FW -Or be too much and make Public Matches redundant. Neither will aid the game mode at all since no value means no players, and too much value means farmers and AFKers. I would suggest simply increasing the LP pay outs to start with. Find a niche that makes FW worth playing. If 500 isn't enough perhaps you could double the rewards to 1000 LP for the winner and 200 LP for the loosing side (a fair number for the kills they secure in the name of their faction). With boosters that makes 1250 LP for a win and 250 LP for a loss. This means with ISK I can now buy 10 Imperial Complex Armour Plates for that LP cost + ISK. Please feel free to discuss and or critique these values ( I typically am not one for numbers ). Beyond FW and Significance of FW One thing that will draw players into FW is a feeling of significance. Not every corporation can be a part of Planetary Conquest and not all of them are content with being relegated to instanced and unimportant battlefields. In order for players to feel a part of Factional Warfare and to experience the significance of their actions I would suggest that a number of thing be looked at either for future development (unlikely as that is) or for integration in Legion. The first is related FW statistics and Overlay The Overlay would indicate which faction owns the system and reflect the system wide level of contestation as determined by EVE players Plexing efforts as well as when a system is vulnerable or stable, this being something I do not feel is adequately reflected. Additionally the system and district wide contestation values would then be represented below that. In regards to the statistics I feel like players should have access to more information regarding the FW system. Statistics that indicate how we have affected the overall meta game from aiding in deplexing systems to making them vulnerable, not just this but also over all WP gains form the militia's, individual corporations, players, etc. Battles won and Lost, efficiency ratings. Implementation of the Tier System as a LP Modifier In EVE LP gains from plexing are divided in twain. Offensive Plexing- More Risk, in enemy held system, higher pay out. Defensive Plexing- (Arguably) easier, in a friendly system, less pay out. I suggest that when players fight in future or are given the opportunity to engage in an offensive contract they are rewarded more for it, being more aggressive, and trying to win back lost ground. While at the same time defensive plexing results in less LP as a whole but ensures the system is keep stable. Additionally the tier systems in my opinion is a wonderful thing. It allows factions to fortify themselves in systems and garner bonuses by having something to spend their WP on. resulting in what can only be considered an investment both financially and personally in the success of the Militia as a whole. Militia as a Community I personally love the idea of a sign on Miltia. While I suppose its a little restricting the Miltia is a Community, they are your allies and they are people as dedicated to the friendly militia's success. Reinforce the idea Militia as a community a microcosm of the player base with a unified cause and purpose. Let Militia's talk shop about how they plex, when they plex, which system are most important, etc, etc. These are just a number of discussions and suggestions..... and I am always interested in discussion FW and its advancement. *"I watched you. From candle to a torch you grew. I'll always remember those days with great affection." - Satja Askarin
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2820	Posted - 2014.07.06 07:12:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Very glad to hear. Not only does this reward greater risk, but it would encourage higher tier players to play FW instead of pubstomping. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11645	Posted - 2014.07.06 07:56:00 - [36] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Very glad to hear. Not only does this reward greater risk, but it would encourage higher tier players to play FW instead of pubstomping. I'm very ambivalent towards that statement. It not that they need to be better, its that they need to be different and of value. *"I watched you. From candle to a torch you grew. I'll always remember those days with great affection." - Satja Askarin
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1250	Posted - 2014.07.06 10:34:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. I will be hones with you, as much as a higher payout n FW would help (more LP and possibly some isk too?) fr me personally is the rare / 'upgraded' weapons and equipment that draws me in t FW. Personally Iove the Minmatar proto rep tool in the FW market. The one that reps at 90 instead of the regular 70 of proto) wit dual channels. Its the best repper in my opinion. Yes it reps a little less than the core focused but it has 2 channels and has much better range. I propose more 'slightly better than proto' bits of equipment and weaponry in the FW store. MY LIFE FOR AIUR! Protoss You gonna' give me orders? Terran "Cat got your tongue? Zerg Queen of Blades.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8725	Posted - 2014.07.06 14:07:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. I'd also suggest that you don't make payouts linear per level, meaning that as you gain standings it's not just another +X increment in LP payout. Having high standing with one of the factions should be rewarded exponentially to encourage loyalty. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 27	Posted - 2014.07.06 15:23:00 - [39] - Quote This is all great, we need to work together to try and draw up then hone a numerical framework of what we would like to see from an LP payout hotfix. Then we can have a tangible point to debate. We all know we want more, lets put it into numbers and discuss, hopefully we can reach a feasible solution and get this in the game quick sticks. 1. Altered LP payout scale 2. Bonus LP to reflect performance of players,(not just winners if u fight hard, you should be recognised, even if losers get less), I put forth mina longstrike's suggestion of wp=+%LP 3.I like the standings system, I don't think it needs a tweek, but perhaps a victory for caldari means a small standing increase for ammar to encourage more allied fw action Let's get number crunching, stay focused purely on the LP/standings/loot system Work together share your thoughts and let's get this fixed For the glory of The State and Her Allies P.s. Busy week for me but il try and throw together some kind of spreadsheet/notes over the next week or so Caldari Scout/Sentinel- Closed Beta Player Born, raised and trained under the shadow of Kaalakiota Corp HQ
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11655	Posted - 2014.07.06 20:57:00 - [40] - Quote An increase to LP pay outs will help...... But as several people as said above LP means nothing to players if there is nothing of worth to buy. So giving players something different stat wise or visually might be a successful way to encourage more people to join. However another issue arises when one Factions loyalty store is simply better than its counter part so I would say fleshing them out as much will their appropriate content is a must. *"I watched you. From candle to a torch you grew. I'll always remember those days with great affection." - Satja Askarin

Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 27	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:10:00 - [41] - Quote I agree whole heartedly, a more fleshed out store would help fuel interest, that part of the equation is relatively simple. First I would like to focus on payout structure. Maybe a separate thread can be made on adding items to the store that are already in the market and specialist items can be proposed and balance debated. State Kaalakiota Specialist Bolt Pistol State Kaalakiota Specialist Assault Rail Rifle State Kaalakiota Specialist Cloak Field (that should bring some tears) Caldari Scout/Sentinel- Closed Beta Player Born, raised and trained under the shadow of Kaalakiota Corp HQ
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11656	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:17:00 - [42] - Quote I personally have 80,000LP. All of that was saved for the express purpose of LP Amarr HAV. This won't occur within Dust 514 ever....... thus I should have no incentive to fight for the Amarr as I am throwing materials at something that gives me no reward. I do however fight out of a sense of loyalty to the Amarr....... but all in all I am throwing my ISK, somehow remaining ISK stable, at a gamemode that provides me with absolutely no reward. If a Khanid Tank (alt colour Caldari hull HAV with a focus on Armour) were implemented I'd have a reason to spend my LP. Another huge issue I see is the inherent imbalance between Caldari/Gallente Warzone and the Amarr/Minmatar. Vehicles users are almost actively punished for using vehicles in the latter warzone as there is no way to recoup the losses in the LP stores.....nor will there be. *"I watched you. From candle to a torch you grew. I'll always remember those days with great affection." - Satja Askarin
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 366	Posted - 2014.07.07 14:56:00 - [43] - Quote I know it's been said already but I will add my voice... fw needs an isk payout along wth lp. now if we had a player market to sell salvage and lp gear this would be less of an issue, but we are not getting a market, so without an isk payout there is no incentive to play fw. the alternative to isk would be lp items ONLY costing lp without isk, but we would still need higher lp payouts.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3426	Posted - 2014.07.07 15:32:00 - [44] - Quote What? People play FW? I gave up on that cause i dont want to wait a half hour to get into 1 match.
Taipaen Loose Cannon Security 20	Posted - 2014.07.08 22:04:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. This might be beyond what can be done in a hotfix, but I'd like to see a Loyalty Point bonus for actually using dropsuits of the side you are fighting for. The game currently tracks your most used dropsuit for each battle and reports this to the player with the rest of the stats. Could this already collected data be used to give a small LP boost if, for example, a merc fighting for Gal has a Gal suit equipped for most of the battle? Currently FW has us facing a random spread of fits just like in Pub matches... which takes away any real feeling of it being, well, factional. This would also give more meaningful weapon choice since if you are entering a battle vs the Cal, you're more likely to encounter Cal dropsuits and can thus fit weapons with bonus damage vs shields.
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 240	Posted - 2014.07.08 22:57:00 - [46] - Quote Taipaen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. This might be beyond what can be done in a hotfix, but I'd like to see a Loyalty Point bonus for actually using dropsuits of the side you are fighting for. The game currently tracks your most used dropsuit for each battle and reports this to the player with the rest of the stats. Could this already collected data be used to give a small LP boost if, for example, a merc fighting for Gal has a Gal suit equipped for most of the battle? Currently FW has us facing a random spread of fits just like in Pub matches... which takes away any real feeling of it being, well, factional. This would also give more meaningful weapon choice since if you are entering a battle vs the Cal, you're more likely to encounter Cal dropsuits and can thus fit weapons with bonus damage vs shields. I only have Minmatar Suits. What if I want to aid the Gallente? Would the bonus apply to allies? What if I were to use your race's militia suit? Would that constitute? Loving the discussion so far. I feel FW should get Isk, but only around 10,000, something so you can pay a little for FW gear. Although I get the grinding in pubs and everything. And CCP Rattati, the FW Store MUST have the gear. Tell us how hard it is. It has to happen. I already have all the Minmatar Suits that are in the store. Why exactly can't I get a heavy? From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2559	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:25:00 - [47] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: When 1.7's FW system came out, I made this thread which then got ignored for 6 months, but now that the messiah Rattati has emerged, there is now some chance of feedback actually being taken into consideration. [Comparison] A purely ISK-bought standard fitting: STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 11,850 ISK Now the same standard fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ A purely ISK-bought prototype fitting: scout mk.0 Freedom mass driver Six Kin SMG Complex shield extender Complex shield recharger Complex sidearm damage mod Complex armor rep Complex armor plate Complex codebreaker Cost: 155,760 ISK Now the same prototype fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): Republic scout mk.0 Republic Freedom mass driver Republic Six Kin SMG Republic complex shield extender Republic complex shield recharger Republic complex sidearm damage mod Federation complex armor rep Federation complex armor plate Federation complex codebreaker Cost: 805 LP (580 Republic / 225 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ [Problem] ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K ISK depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 05.91-33.76 full fits of the STD ISK fitting. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 00.45-02.57 full fits of the PRO ISK fitting. LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 LP depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP. With the LP rewards you can buy between 01.63-03.30 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. With the LP rewards you can buy between 00.41-00.82 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. See any problem with that? ISK rewards let you buy 6-33 standard fits, or 1/2-2 prototype. LP rewards even for a victory with level 10 standing can only buy you 3 equivalent standard, or less than 1 equivalent prototype fits. The very best FW rewards are still awful compared to the very worst public Skirmish reward. LP rewards comparatively suck for buying low tier stuff, and sucks for buying high tier stuff as well. No player market will eve be coming for Dust, so the whole "you will be able to profit from FW by selling LP items" argument is completely dead. Even if you could sell LP items you bought, items bought with a level 10 standing victory LP reward would have to be priced around 6 that of ISK-bought equivalents just to match the rewards of an average Skirmish (I covered why 6x it in the original thread I linked). [Solution] FW is high risk: practically no pay for losses, no standings gain for losses, and friendly fire. High risk should come with high reward. If a loss is worth close to nothing, a victory should be almost equivalent to twice the average Skirmish payout. This could be done by A) Increase both victory and defeat LP rewards by 5x. This would mean that a victory with 0 standing to buy 8 STD fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy 6-33 STD fits), this would make it at least better than AFK farming in a public Skirmish. With a level 10 standings victory, you could buy around 4 PRO fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy over 2 PRO fits). B) add the same (or reduced) public battle ISK rewards to FW in addition to LP rewards. Why should high risk come with lower rewards? [Somewhat related] LP store is lacking a ton of stuff: Caldari scout, Cal sentinel, Cal commando, magsec, bolt pistol. Minmatar scout, Min sentinel, Min commando, standard and advanced combat rifles. Gallente sentinel, Gal commando, ion pistol. Amarr scout. Some weapons have both a PRO specialist and less expensive non-specialist variants (SCR), while others only have the expensive specialist variant as an option (AR); all PRO LP weapons should have both a specialist and a non-specialist version. Imperial commando AK.0 still has a sidearm in addition to the 2 light weapon slots. No other prototype LP suit has this extra advantage over regular ISK proto, so I assume this is unintentional. Thank you for reading. On point as usual, +1 Risk vs Reward is key to game wide balance, maintaining this within payouts then, is all the more vital as disparities here can more readily have a ripple effect into other aspects of the game. 0.02 ISK Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:30:00 - [48] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Taipaen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. This might be beyond what can be done in a hotfix, but I'd like to see a Loyalty Point bonus for actually using dropsuits of the side you are fighting for. The game currently tracks your most used dropsuit for each battle and reports this to the player with the rest of the stats. Could this already collected data be used to give a small LP boost if, for example, a merc fighting for Gal has a Gal suit equipped for most of the battle? Currently FW has us facing a random spread of fits just like in Pub matches... which takes away any real feeling of it being, well, factional. This would also give more meaningful weapon choice since if you are entering a battle vs the Cal, you're more likely to encounter Cal dropsuits and can thus fit weapons with bonus damage vs shields. I only have Minmatar Suits. What if I want to aid the Gallente? Would the bonus apply to allies? What if I were to use your race's militia suit? Would that constitute? Loving the discussion so far. I feel FW should get Isk, but only around 10,000, something so you can pay a little for FW gear. Although I get the grinding in pubs and everything. And CCP Rattati, the FW Store MUST have the gear. Tell us how hard it is. It has to happen. I already have all the Minmatar Suits that are in the store. Why exactly can't I get a heavy? I believe CCP Rattati has stated that full LP store offerings are on the list. However if memory serves that was before the hotfix cycle began in earnest so it would be great to get a general update on where that stands. Cheers, Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:32:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. Fully agree that the lower cost fix (increasing rewards) should be foremost on the list. That being said making sure the full array of missing items does indeed make it into the game remains important, in my view, regardless of the improvements seen from the rewards increase. But by all means, focus on the most actionable items first. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: TPLAK Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 243	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:33:00 - [50] - Quote Cool beans :) My question...does anyone know how to do Spreadsheets. I'll do them (I'm a 16 year old with Summer Vacation ahead and days left alone), but I need a general basis to start. Any thing people want me to do? From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:37:00 - [51] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Cool beans :) My question...does anyone know how to do Spreadsheets. I'll do them (I'm a 16 year old with Summer Vacation ahead and days left alone), but I need a general basis to start. Any thing people want me to do? I'd hit up Pokey Dravon or Soraya Xel for that, they've both got spreadsheet chops. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 316	Posted - 2014.07.09 03:20:00 - [52] - Quote General12912 wrote: bogeyman m wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just throw this on top of the pile too: Can we please at least have a token standings increase for high performers in a loss? Even just 10 points would make it a lot less infuriating to drop 3x as many WP as the #2 person on the board and get essentially nothing for it. 1 standings point for every 100 WP, a set number of points for the top few people on the leaderboard, something! Throw the Amarr and Caldari a bone here! I support this idea... But disagree with giving those pious Amarrian bastards any bones. but you support the Caldari?? after all the Federation has done to ensure you guys got freedom from the Amarr during the uprising??? Yes, Caldari dont really like Amarr either, but Cal/Amarr are still considered to be allies. The Gallente/Minmatar are allies, but we really arent supposed to hate each other the the Cal/Amarr do. Nope. Don't like the Caldari either. But the Amarrians? Fck those guys. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8	Posted - 2014.07.09 03:24:00 - [53] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: What? People play FW? I gave up on that cause i dont want to wait a half hour to get into 1 match. That's a symptom, not the problem itself. Fix the problem of facwar being damning to lose, high risk / low reward and the symptom clears right up.
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1260	Posted - 2014.07.09 17:48:00 - [54] - Quote Malleus Malificorum wrote: The dark cloud wrote: What? People play FW? I gave up on that cause i dont want to wait a half hour to get into 1 match. That's a symptom, not the problem itself. Fix the problem of facwar being damning to lose, high risk / low reward and the symptom clears right up. I know right, getting a measly 60 LP or so for a loss is painful and frankly a slap to the face. MY LIFE FOR AIUR! Protoss You gonna' give me orders? Terran "Cat got your tongue? Zerg Queen of Blades.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11725	Posted - 2014.07.09 20:02:00 - [55] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: The dark cloud wrote: What? People play FW? I gave up on that cause i dont want to wait a half hour to get into 1 match. That's a symptom, not the problem itself. Fix the problem of facwar being damning to lose, high risk / low reward and the symptom clears right up. I know right, getting a measly 60 LP or so for a loss is painful and frankly a slap to the face. But why should you be rewarded if you fail? "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
Harpyja Legio DXIV 2024	Posted - 2014.07.09 20:07:00 - [56] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: The dark cloud wrote: What? People play FW? I gave up on that cause i dont want to wait a half hour to get into 1 match. That's a symptom, not the problem itself. Fix the problem of facwar being damning to lose, high risk / low reward and the symptom clears right up. I know right, getting a measly 60 LP or so for a loss is painful and frankly a slap to the face. And considering no standings gain for your effort. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
Harpyja Legio DXIV 2024	Posted - 2014.07.09 20:08:00 - [57] - Quote True Adamance wrote: But why should you be rewarded if you fail? Better question is, why should someone who AFK's in the MCC get the same reward that I get, even though I'm gaining WP's and trying to play the objective? "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 585	Posted - 2014.07.09 21:02:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. The original poster forgot to account for something that "might" happen later on down the road to make this small amount of LP reward worth 10 times or more than it is now. If the game stays as it is now without any sort of open market for players to buy/sell/trade items (to include the FW variants of the items), then yes I would agree that the current FW payouts are a joke. However IF we open up a player driven open market where the only source for FW equipment is from LP payouts in FW matches... Then the value of LPs will become 10 times or more what they are now. So please be very VERY careful of changing the FW payout now if you only intend to later implement an open market also. You could end up killing the market before it ever opens.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11725	Posted - 2014.07.09 21:49:00 - [59] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. The original poster forgot to account for something that "might" happen later on down the road to make this small amount of LP reward worth 10 times or more than it is now. If the game stays as it is now without any sort of open market for players to buy/sell/trade items (to include the FW variants of the items), then yes I would agree that the current FW payouts are a joke. However IF we open up a player driven open market where the only source for FW equipment is from LP payouts in FW matches... Then the value of LPs will become 10 times or more what they are now. So please be very VERY careful of changing the FW payout now if you only intend to later implement an open market also. You could end up killing the market before it ever opens. Hmmm you make a fair point. I think the current exchange of LP for ISK is something like 1000 ISK to 1 24th Imperial Crusade LP. "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11725	Posted - 2014.07.09 21:50:00 - [60] - Quote Harpyja wrote: True Adamance wrote: But why should you be rewarded if you fail? Better question is, why should someone who AFK's in the MCC get the same reward that I get, even though I'm gaining WP's and trying to play the objective? Thats a non issue. AFKing has nothing to do with LP payouts. Combating AFKing is its own issue...... "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon



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