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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
850
   |
Posted - 2014.06.15 01:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
850
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 01:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Winst0n W0lf wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. It should take 2 people to kill a well fit tank with a good pilot. It should not, however, take 2 people with proto AV to take out a scrub tanker in a mlt tank, which is how it has been for, what, 6 months now? One competent AV player should also be able to at least do some area denial, which is not the case. Both the ISK and SP investments are horribly imbalanced. Alpha was a good step, but there's still more work to be done. Making tanks expensive again would be a pretty simple way to get there now.
I suggest going the other route and make the better tanks cheaper but easier to kill. If they are expensive they must either remain grossly OP to justify the cost or it is simply unfair to tankers.
Because, that's why.
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Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1865
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 01:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:At least where a gunnlogi is concerned, a forge gun and a swarmer SHRED an unhardened gunnlogi. Mind you both were at proto level, but still, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for those AVers that complain of unkillable tanks. AV played me, lured me in and eventually cut off my escape and surrounded me with their power. It was quite impressive.
AV really shined last night. While I may have only lost but a few tanks to AV, they proved that they are not nearly as underpowered as they claim to be where a Gunnlogi is concerned. Hardeners, of course, makes a huge difference against swarms. Though when you throw a forge gunner into the mix, you WILL have to limit your engagements severely, even with the hardeners.
GG those AVers that actually try, and use tactics to overcome tankers on the field. It's amazing what you can do when you focus fire and coordinate. And it doesn't take half a team of AVers to do it! Hmm... Quote:At least where a [Matari Logistics] is concerned. A [Heavy Machine Gun] and a [Shotgun] would SHRED an untanked [Matari Logistics]. Mind you the [Heavy Machine Guns and Shotguns] were both at proto level, but still, I had a hard time feeling sympathy for any of those [Light or Heavy Frame] users that complain of overpowered [Slayer Logis]. [Heavy Machine Guns and Shotguns] played me, lured me in and eventually cut off my escape and surrounded me with their power. It was quite impressive.
[Heavy & Light Frames[ really shined last night. While I may have only lost a few [Dropsuits] to [Heavy & Light Frames], they proved that they are not nearly as underpowered as they claim to be where a [Matari Logistics] is concerned. [Damage Modifiers], of course, make a huge difference against [Light & Heavy Frame] users. Though when you throw an [HMG] into the mix, you WILL have to limit your engagements severely, even with the hardeners.
GG to those [Light & Heavy Frames] that actually tried, and used tactics to overcome [Slayer Logistics] on the field. It's amazing what you could accomplish when you focus fire and coordinate. And it doesn't tale half a team of AVers to do it!. -It only took about 200% of the manpower I fielded to work :D Now that I've placed your 'logic' into a different perspective to show the obvious flaws with it, allow me to make some things apparent for anyone who doesn't feel like reading that drivel.
- It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
- You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
- You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better?
On your point of "gross incompetence," is it then that a heavy player is incompetent when I use a range advantage against him to melt him with my laser rifle? (Or just anyone in general between 90 and 105 meters)
I'd argue that it wasn't the target that was incompetent, but that I was skilled to use a certain attribute to my advantage, because I sure as hell wouldn't go up against a heavy with my LR at 15 meters.
So therefore, there can be AVers that actually know what they're doing to beat a tank, and not that the tanker was incompetent.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3534
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Posted - 2014.06.15 02:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument.
Because it only takes two competent AVers to kill any number of tanks. If I can organise another forge-gunner (or a swarmer willing to get in close for 'nades) if we can get organised (so probably not in ambush) we can kill all the tanks all the time.
A BFG coupled with an AFG works exceedingly well, btw.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 4 (3 days left...)
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9472
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Posted - 2014.06.15 02:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:
You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one?
If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.
It depends on the AVer. If the AVer fighting the well built HAV has a well fitted dropsuit and proper skill investments, yes s/he should be able to with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, you run the risk of said "well fit HAV" becoming a FoTM -which it is now- and removing the risk factor involved in piloting a vehicle. (For reference, see the Triple 'Rep' Madrugar).
If multiple players with AV weapons are coordinating to kill a vehicle, there is no reason as to why they should not be able to kill vehicles in quick succession. If you feel as if you should survive multiple targets working together, I'd suggest playing a single player game.
And it would be equally credible to say that if AVers couldn't solo HAVs, then AV would be worthless. If 2 Dropships get killed by one AVer, it;s because they decided to stay in it's range as opposed to evading, or that they decided to fool around as opposed to working together. Both are issues of player incompetence, which is no way a problem.
Not really sure how other vehicles would be worthless we either. You still have the ability to kill the AVer -by yourself-, and you'd still have the ability to perform the tasks you were doing originally. The AVer would simply be a reasonable and deadly threat (as it should), and you'd have to deal with the target or send infantry to deal with them. (as you should, in the same sense that in order to deal with you, infantry must send AVers.
Let's look at it this way.
- Pilot > Infantry > AVer GëÑ Pilot
This is a balance model where everyone has an equally balanced model and is encouraged to use their class/role as opposed to defaulting to another. Here, everyone has a reasonable chance to counter each-other, leading to a "balance of powers" where one role is not greater than the next, which leads to diversity on the battlefield as opposed to several players using the same item
- Pilot > Infantry > AVer < Pilot
This is a balance model where the pilot has the advantage every-time (what you appear to be suggesting), heavily encouraging the use of the pilot role/class over others. Here, in order to reasonably counter the pilot, you have to become one yourself, of field multiple players. If it requires multiple players to destroy one unit, your forced to field more manpower to destroy a target than the enemy has fielded.
This may work well in a game with no theoretical engagements on how many units can be at an encounter, such as EVE: Online, but in a game where you have a low cap on how many players can be fielded in an engagement, (in this case 16); such as unit will force players to either become that unit themselves, which serves to kill the diversity that this game is supposed to thrive on.
Which one seems healthy for this game?
Now let's look at this from another standpoint.
Why would anyone spend SP into the AV role when it :
- Requires exponential amounts of SP to complete, comparable to that of a vehicle pilot.
- Reduces your viability against Infantry units
- Useful only in select few situations
- Makes you extremely vulnerable to Infantry
As opposed to a vehicle when it:
- Grants invulnerability to 71% of all Infantry Weapons in DUST 514
- 3,000 eHP Increase
- Increases viability against Infantry units
- Useful in nearly all situations
The answer is, they wouldn't. There would be no point to using AV Weaponry, especially over a vehicle. Bar those few sockets and complexes, but even then your starter fits are quite effective, and will be even more so in Hotfix Bravo when more MLT Weapons are added to the marketplace.
Now for my questions to you:
- Do you believe that AVers should have reasonable expectations to solo a vehicle pilot (assuming equally tiered and experienced) and if not, then why?
- How viable should the AV class be compared to the Vehicle class?
- How many players do you believe it should require to destroy yourself, and why?
-HAND
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAMD
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9472
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 02:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:
On your point of "gross incompetence," is it then that a heavy player is incompetent when I use a range advantage against him to melt him with my laser rifle? (Or just anyone in general between 90 and 105 meters)
I'd argue that it wasn't the target that was incompetent, but that I was skilled to use a certain attribute to my advantage, because I sure as hell wouldn't go up against a heavy with my LR at 15 meters.
So therefore, there can be AVers that actually know what they're doing to beat a tank, and not that the tanker was incompetent.
Yes, it is an issue of gross incompetence because he made the mistake of traveling out in the open, making him an easy target players like you, especially when he could have used an LAV for transport.
That would be the case if it weren't for the fact that the player willingly placed himself in that situation.
It is very well possible for AVers to outplay vehicle pilots, I and a few other Swarmers in my corp do i t all the time. However, there''s a difference between being outplayed, and willingly placing yourself to be placed in a situation to be destroyed.
Hell, the simple fact that he wasn't tanking defensively (using a hardener) is a blatant sign of gross incompetence.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAMD
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1822
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 02:58:00 -
[37] - Quote
I beleive, that if a player sacrifices an entire Tank fitting to surviving AV(shield boosters, hardeners, armor reps and plates) then they should be able to tank 1 AVer with almost impunity- that being they are in no danger of being killed anytime soon(like a Proto Heavy versus Mlt Ar person)
However: a person who sacrifices their entire fitting/skillpoint allocation to kill a tank, theyshould make that tanker sh!t themselves and leave immediately, or die.
If it's a Militia tank, fit fully defensively, they should reasonably tank a Mlt AVer, such that it would take 4-6 volleys to kill.
Skilling to a Standard tank with full Standard mods should grant immunity to any single Mlt Swarmer eho relies entirely on swarms.
If that Mlt swarmer sacrifices a nade or equipment to aid in the destruction o tanks, the Mlt one should die in 2 nades and a clip(3 shot) of swarms.
If that Mlt Aver with Basic Av nades finds a Standard tank, it should require all of his ammo(assumibg current Mlt Swarm ammo)
Skilling into Full out Prototype AV, and fitting 2 items should grant ability to 2 clip kill any -normal- Proto tank fitting, exception being a fully defensive fitting, requiring up to 3 clips to kill. av nades should reduce the # of clips by about 2/3 or 1.
Hope this made sense.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
853
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 03:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument. Because it only takes two competent AVers to kill any number of tanks. If I can organise another forge-gunner (or a swarmer willing to get in close for 'nades) if we can get organised (so probably not in ambush) we can kill all the tanks all the time. A BFG coupled with an AFG works exceedingly well, btw.
You didn't address my question. Two tankers can kill any number of AV'ers, so how does this further the logic of your argument?
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
853
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 03:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Most of us AV'ers are arguing that two players with equal SP invested, equal ISK expenditure and equal skill should have equal chances of killing one another.
This seems not only reasonable, but obvious. If you don't agree with this, please explain why.
Because, that's why.
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Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1482
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 03:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument.
I am arguing that if one av can destroy a vehicle solo then any combination will destroy a vehicle, even a well fit one, with ease. I am fine with the idea of it taking two av to kill one well skilled vehicle even if its a proto and a milita because of the substantial amount of isk that some vehicles cost. Obviously milita tanks are broken and I agree that they need a large price increase or a Nerf to bring them in line.
I am a dropship pilot main, though I also operate missile tanks for fun. With dropships I run with a crew of 2-4 mercs depending on who is on. With the dropship pilot rendering issues I find that having a gunner is nessesary as they can see threats I simply cannot. Even on my missile tank I have gunners come along to deal with infantry as the large missile turret isn't effective against infantry, and from what I'm hearing from blaster hav operators the dispertion Nerf has affected them. Hopefully this leads to more hav operators fitting turrets to combat infantry.
Although it does take two av working together to kill a well fit dropship it only takes one to deny the area to it and that protects his ground team. Tanks of course are another story, but you cannot talk av without including every form of vehicle in those talks.
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1823
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 05:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument. I am arguing that if one av can destroy a vehicle solo then any combination will destroy a vehicle, even a well fit one, with ease. I am fine with the idea of it taking two av to kill one well skilled vehicle even if its a proto and a milita because of the substantial amount of isk that some vehicles cost. Obviously milita tanks are broken and I agree that they need a large price increase or a Nerf to bring them in line. I am a dropship pilot main, though I also operate missile tanks for fun. With dropships I run with a crew of 2-4 mercs depending on who is on. With the dropship pilot rendering issues I find that having a gunner is nessesary as they can see threats I simply cannot. Even on my missile tank I have gunners come along to deal with infantry as the large missile turret isn't effective against infantry, and from what I'm hearing from blaster hav operators the dispertion Nerf has affected them. Hopefully this leads to more hav operators fitting turrets to combat infantry. Although it does take two av working together to kill a well fit dropship it only takes one to deny the area to it and that protects his ground team. Tanks of course are another story, but you cannot talk av without including every form of vehicle in those talks.
If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'?
Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Godin Thekiller
The Corporate Raiders
2608
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 05:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
I find it amusing that you scrubs still talk as if vehicles vs. anything is a binary "If X goes against Y with Z, X wins no matter what".
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1823
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Posted - 2014.06.15 06:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
True, although ultimately it boils down to DPS vs Reps, with Buffer only mattering once DPS goes over reps by X amount, as THEN the tank is in trouble. Just kinda sucks that tanks are able to outrep swarms unless they're paired with Alpha weaponry(nades/remotes)
While it doesn't always boil down to "if X has Y, X beats Z when fitted with W" it has sorts become that way.
Missile maddy, rep maddy, and Av.
Missile maddy kills Rep maddy, rep maddy kills Av, Av kills Missile maddy.
Sadly that only involves like 3 weapons out of the game.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1482
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 08:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
Atiim wrote:] Now let's look at this from another standpoint. Why would anyone spend SP into the AV role when it :
- Requires exponential amounts of SP to complete, comparable to that of a vehicle pilot.
- Reduces your viability against Infantry units
- Useful only in select few situations
- Makes you extremely vulnerable to Infantry
As opposed to a vehicle when it:
- Grants invulnerability to 71% of all Infantry Weapons in DUST 514
- 3,000 eHP Increase
- Increases viability against Infantry units
- Useful in nearly all situations
The answer is, they wouldn't. There would be no point to using AV Weaponry, especially over a vehicle. Bar those few sockets and complexes, but even then your starter fits are quite effective, and will be even more so in Hotfix Bravo when more MLT Weapons are added to the marketplace.
Now for my questions to you: Do you believe that AVers should have reasonable expectations to solo a vehicle pilot (assuming equally tiered and experienced) and if not, then why?
How viable should the AV class be compared to the Vehicle class?
How many players do you believe it should require to destroy yourself, and why?[/list]
-HAND
Good post, I'd just like to ask that as we continue this dialog we could refrain from personal attacks and quips as there has been enough of that in the av/v discussion. I approached you with this question as you are strong supporter of swarms as I am a strong supporter of dropships and would like to keep this civil (and I know how much you enjoy exciting vehicle players) 
You raise some valid points and I acknowledge them. Though a few I feel are unfair.
From my experience the current balance model (for dropships/av) is,
Pilot > Infantry > AVer GëÑ Pilot
Though as the different av weapons are well, different I'll break it down as I have encountered it.
Forge guns: very much true, fights against a forge gun are intense and have me at the end he of my seat, one small slip up on either side could mean death. Naturally less skilled forge gunners are easier to kill but then again I'm a seasoned pilot so that makes sense. Really skilled forge gunners scare the hell out of me and if I manage to break contact and limp away I don't return to that area.
PLC: not as true against a dropship but then the PLC is geared more towards fighting ground vehicles and can (in the right hands) solo tanks. It can deal pretty devastating damage and force dropships away, and I have fought some skilled PLC users who fought just as your model describes.
(Not really relevant but it does have better AI ability than other av)
Swarms: can be argued both ways. Swarm knock does give the swarmer the ability to fight off a dropship when its attacking. When coupled with the minmando proto swarms fit your model pretty good. Same sort of situation with the forge gun a mistake on either side could lead to death, I have been downed by some skilled minmando swarms and have barley killed a few as well.
The other comment I felt was unfair was the sp requirement. With tiercide a fully speced minmando with swarms and a fully speced python are about the same in sp requirements. Though we can debate that another time.
To answer your questions,
Yes I do feel av should have a reasonable chance at brining down my ship if they have the same investment in their role as I do.
Your going to have to elaborate on this a little. Viable in terms of wp? Av does get points for damaging vehicles so keeping them off ground troops backs could be viable? I wish transporting troops in my dropship was more viable 
I feel it should take two av players to down my dropship. Be it proto swarm and milita, two adv swarms, forge and swarm, PLC and swarm etc.
I feel this way because my dropship isn't empty, at minimum I have one gunner and that's a skeleton crew. Ideally I have two gunners/shock troopers (usually heavies with forge guns for tanks and suicide ships) a hacker and a another variable shock trooper.
My point about dropships (and tanks to a lesser extent) is that they emphasize team work. I will never be able to use my missile turret as good as my gunner because I also have to fly the craft, where as my gunner is focused on one job. I can give him better angles than I can get, he can see infantry and threats better than I can and he doesn't have to worry about flying the dropship. Having a gunner allows me to focus on flying. I usually only use my gun to add DPs on hard targets like other vehicles or installations. (Sometimes forge guns because when I'm banking hard at high speed gunners run the risk of killing themselves)
I do understand that there are pilots who take off their side guns to fit more of a tank. This saddens me too, and while they do have more tank and are still a threat they aren't as effective as a dropship with gunners. A dropship without gunners can't do a slow orbit while keeping a gun on its target, in some cases they may be able to but their attention will be devided between looking for other threats, shooting at the target and flying their ship.
Some more questions for you,
Could you clarify for me what a reasonable expectation is for an av player (more specifically a swarm player) to solo a well fit and skilled python pilot is? Maybe of an example of an engagement?
Please clarify what you mean by viable
(Since I know you use swarms) when engaging a proto fit dropship with same teir kit how Manny volleys should it take (in your mind) to kill a dropship? I see a lot of swarm players complaining about dropships afterburning away. Truth be told it's because if we stay we will probably be killed by said swarms. How do you view this as a swarmer? As my only sure fire way to get away from swarms is an afterburner I consider it my countermeasure, in fact to more than just swarms.
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Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1482
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Posted - 2014.06.15 08:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Wouldn't fit 
I apologize if my op sounded confrontational but really I was asking in good spirits (was pretty high at the time) and wanted to have a dialog with an av player that doesn't devolve into....well.....that swarm discussion ratatti put up.
I want av to feel like their useful and have a role on the battlefield. I also don't want to loose my investments and feel useless either.
Anyway I look forward to your reply |
Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1482
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 08:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:
If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'?
Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die.
There is a big difference between area denial and killing. vehicles are afraid of av, maybe not triple rep Maddie's but every other vehicle. I shouldn't have to explain this. |
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3259
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Posted - 2014.06.15 11:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
Dont worry armor reps are about to be nerfbatted. Stats are as followed:
STD-80HP/s
ADV-90 HP/s
PRO- 110HP/s
that are the new heavy repair rate stats which you can find here this will deffo make the tripple repping tanks less effective. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3550
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Posted - 2014.06.15 11:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:
-snip- long quote
It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.
You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively
You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.
On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument. Because it only takes two competent AVers to kill any number of tanks. If I can organise another forge-gunner (or a swarmer willing to get in close for 'nades) if we can get organised (so probably not in ambush) we can kill all the tanks all the time. A BFG coupled with an AFG works exceedingly well, btw. You didn't address my question. Two tankers can kill any number of AV'ers, so how does this further the logic of your argument?
Two AFGers can kill any number of tanks. I don't see the issue here insofar as FGs are concerned.
The issue is making it so that pushing back a tank is a: useful and b: profitable.
I think for starters the WP for vehicle damage should start their scaling at a lower threshold (with a smaller reward) and that pilots should be unable to gain said warpoints.
Aside from that it's mostly tweaking based on vehicle defensive attributes (a single PRO SL forces my PRO Rail to leave the area, for example, where a second might kill me. It needs to be balanced in such a way that if I mess up the first SL will kill me and both together will always kill me) and some offensive attributes. Which is happening at the moment.
FGs are pretty much fine (or will be, once the reppers are nerfed).
I'm of the opinion, also, that AV grenades should qualify as an extra AVer in the sense that competently place supplementary damage should guarantee the kill.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 4 (3 days left...)
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
854
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Posted - 2014.06.15 13:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:I find it amusing that you scrubs still talk as if vehicles vs. anything is a binary "If X goes against Y with Z, X wins no matter what".
We actually argue that it is a multifactorial continuum, with some factors weighing more heavily than others.
Because, that's why.
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9480
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Good post, I'd just like to ask that as we continue this dialog we could refrain from personal attacks and quips as there has been enough of that in the av/v discussion. I approached you with this question as you are strong supporter of swarms as I am a strong supporter of dropships and would like to keep this civil (and I know how much you enjoy exciting vehicle players)
Before I begin reading your post, I want to address this part as soon as possible.
I'm not attempting to insult you or attack you personally, and I'm sorry if it seems that way. Though I will agree, this could go quite nicely without insults and slurs on either side.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAMD
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:
If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'?
Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die.
I've said this many times, you don't have to "kill" the tank to deny the area.
While AV can't simply kill me in a single clip of swarms or less like they used to, staying in an AV heavy area will result in death of my tank.
And here is something nobody considers, what happens when 3 AV get together? Those 3 AV can take on not just ONE tank, but multiple tanks when their efforts are concentrated. No they won't kill in every situation, but they WILL PUSH BACK ANY TANK THAT APPROACHES. Much like the match I was describing in my OP.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Alpha 443-6732
BurgezzE.T.F
509
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
Comparing apples and oranges: the thread.
As long as a tank cannot effectively fight in sockets as an infantryman would do, then the numbers will never be balanced.
Of course, swarms need only a slight buff, PLC needs tweaking and overall infantry AVers need more options in general.
BUT
As long as a tank is stuck on the ground moping about while youre on a rooftop with your forge/swarm/plc, 1 tank will never be equal to 1 infantry AVer; they are simply not the same thing.
A tank will always focus on raw firepower and defense and the infantryman will always focus on evading, using terrain and capitalizing on the obvious weakpoints of enemies.
An infantry AVer can potentially be invincible if he knows how and when to disengage, while a tanker tends to be a lot more sluggish in comparison (not including maddies with boosters).
Infantry AVers should use their small frames to stealth about and be unpredictable. If we get Ewar in Dust, it should exist as long, harsh debuffs (pilot loses control of vehicle, gun disabled, engine disabled, etc) for vehicles that can be applied through mines and other equipment.
Again, with this being said, I do believe that AV needs a slight tweak, but its getting to the right spot. AV should never compete with tanks for raw stats, because the nature of being an infantryman is that you have such a potential to be evasive and elusive, where vehicles struggle much of the time. |
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
2569
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
a specced proto avers can force tanks to leave an area but it's not likely they will destroy them.
two avers that catch a tank without cover and nowhere to run to quickly, can destroy a tank under those conditions.
three avers can usually kill any tank.
that's been my experience
although I generally consider lone avers a joke and laugh them off like they are wasting their time, they do still force me to move. |
Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox
352
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:
How about because (not you) some tankers drive a Sica with a blaster, and yet my Wyrrkomis on a Minmatar Commando can't kill them?
.
well maybe since you know. swarms = explosive
shields = resistant to explosives
swarms = ineffective.
try flux grenades. then use the swarm. or better yet with the commando. plc + swarm
or even better a medium frame.
Elite Gallenten Soldier
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Most of us AV'ers are arguing that two players with equal SP invested, equal ISK expenditure and equal skill should have equal chances of killing one another.
This seems not only reasonable, but obvious. If you don't agree with this, please explain why.
And I have a question, how effective is my large railgun or missile setups against AV?
Considering they are not very effective at all when it comes to killing infantry compared to the blaster counterpart, why is it so important that these types of tanks be denied an area?
I have been a railgun user, with the intent to use them against vehicles AND infantry, for a very long time now. I consider my aim a cut above most railgun users that attempt to AI with it. And I can still say that I miss A LOOOOT. With missiles, it's just insane how much I miss. I do better with the splash damage of the railgun.
So on average, in a game void of tanks, and light on competent AV, I can maybe get 10 to 15 kills, some of those being kills to an LAV driver or 2. I see proto suit heavies and scouts consistently get more kills than that. More often than not though, I get maybe 7 kills, and upwards to 2000 WP for my efforts.
So please explain how a railgun or missile setup (somebody) needs to be destroyed as soon as it rears it's face. I will admit that running gunners (good ones at that) results in a much higher kill count for the tank as a whole, but I'm also removing 2 extra people from the field.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:Lynn Beck wrote:
How about because (not you) some tankers drive a Sica with a blaster, and yet my Wyrrkomis on a Minmatar Commando can't kill them?
.
well maybe since you know. swarms = explosive shields = resistant to explosives swarms = ineffective. try flux grenades. then use the swarm. or better yet with the commando. plc + swarm or even better a medium frame.
I really think that proto swarms shouldn't have as much a problem with a MLT tank as they do. Blame that though on the fact that the modules cooldowns are tiered and not the resistances provided. For those 24 seconds, a sica can gain as much resistance as a gunnlogi running 2 hardeners.
I will say though, the cooldown is insanely long, so I imagine that kind of sica would be rather vulnerable for a long period of time afterwards.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1007
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:
Again, with this being said, I do believe that AV needs a slight tweak, but its getting to the right spot. AV should never compete with tanks for raw stats, because the nature of being an infantryman is that you have such a potential to be evasive and elusive, where vehicles struggle much of the time.
You make some very good points. Infantry can use terrain to their advantage in area a tank just can't.
Cities, high elevations, obstructions, ect.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3557
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Posted - 2014.06.15 15:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:
Again, with this being said, I do believe that AV needs a slight tweak, but its getting to the right spot. AV should never compete with tanks for raw stats, because the nature of being an infantryman is that you have such a potential to be evasive and elusive, where vehicles struggle much of the time.
You make some very good points. Infantry can use terrain to their advantage in area a tank just can't. Cities, high elevations, obstructions, ect.
It is an incomplete point, though; don't forget ye olde Manus Peak Mountain.
(Speaking of which, where did Bad Furry go again?)
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 4 (3 days left...)
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Godin Thekiller
The Corporate Raiders
2613
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Posted - 2014.06.15 19:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:I find it amusing that you scrubs still talk as if vehicles vs. anything is a binary "If X goes against Y with Z, X wins no matter what". We actually argue that it is a multifactorial continuum, with some factors weighing more heavily than others.
A quick scan through this thread shows otherwise.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9497
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Posted - 2014.06.16 06:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
I'm going to attempt to break this down into different segments, so please bear with me.
Pvt Numnutz wrote:
[...]
You raise some valid points and I acknowledge them. Though a few I feel are unfair.
From my experience the current balance model (for dropships/av) is,
Pilot > Infantry > AVer GëÑ Pilot
Though as the different av weapons are well, different I'll break it down as I have encountered it.
Forge guns: very much true, fights against a forge gun are intense and have me at the end he of my seat, one small slip up on either side could mean death. Naturally less skilled forge gunners are easier to kill but then again I'm a seasoned pilot so that makes sense. Really skilled forge gunners scare the hell out of me and if I manage to break contact and limp away I don't return to that area.
PLC: not as true against a dropship but then the PLC is geared more towards fighting ground vehicles and can (in the right hands) solo tanks. It can deal pretty devastating damage and force dropships away, and I have fought some skilled PLC users who fought just as your model describes.
(Not really relevant but it does have better AI ability than other av)
Swarms: can be argued both ways. Swarm knock does give the swarmer the ability to fight off a dropship when its attacking. When coupled with the minmando proto swarms fit your model pretty good. Same sort of situation with the forge gun a mistake on either side could lead to death, I have been downed by some skilled minmando swarms and have barley killed a few as well.
I'm not going to attempt to discuss the Forge Gun or Plasma Cannon and how it relates to AV, as I don't use them enough to make an educated thesis on how effective or ineffective they are on vehicles, or to have a comprehensive discussion/debate involving them.
For the most part, I would agree with you on that. and I have even stated something similar in the past. However, this does not entirely correlate to armored vehicles sporting repair modules. Though this is being addressed in Hofix Bravo, so I'll need time to assess those changes before I can debate that.
My statement was not to say that the first balance model isn't where it is currently (for the most part, it is); It was to show my reasoning behind why I feel that vehicles should be reasonably 'soloed' by a properly equipped AVer.
Pvt Numnutz wrote:The other comment I felt was unfair was the sp requirement. With tiercide a fully speced minmando with swarms and a fully speced python are about the same in sp requirements. Though we can debate that another time. To answer your questions, Yes I do feel av should have a reasonable chance at brining down my ship if they have the same investment in their role as I do. Your going to have to elaborate on this a little. Viable in terms of wp? Av does get points for damaging vehicles so keeping them off ground troops backs could be viable? I wish transporting troops in my dropship was more viable I feel it should take two av players to down my dropship. Be it proto swarm and milita, two adv swarms, forge and swarm, PLC and swarm etc. I feel this way because my dropship isn't empty, at minimum I have one gunner and that's a skeleton crew. Ideally I have two gunners/shock troopers (usually heavies with forge guns for tanks and suicide ships) a hacker and a another variable shock trooper.
When I say "viable", I mean the ability to kill the target they're fighting. While your Dropship may be empty, it's important to realize that there are many ADS Pilots who don't use gunners and because of such, making it impossible to 'solo' ADSs will lead to an instance of the second balance model, which is bad for reasons I've stated earlier.
Though it should be noted that any Dropship with a competent gunner sporting a 20GJ Railgun can make soloing it nearly impossible, as you have to stand out in the open to fire at it, which can lead to instant death due to the RoF and accuracy of the turret, not to mention the fact that Matari Commandos aren't the best at strafing and jumping.
Pvt Numnutz wrote:My point about dropships (and tanks to a lesser extent) is that they emphasize team work. I will never be able to use my missile turret as good as my gunner because I also have to fly the craft, where as my gunner is focused on one job. I can give him better angles than I can get, he can see infantry and threats better than I can and he doesn't have to worry about flying the dropship. Having a gunner allows me to focus on flying. I usually only use my gun to add DPs on hard targets like other vehicles or installations. (Sometimes forge guns because when I'm banking hard at high speed gunners run the risk of killing themselves)
While they do emphasize teamwork, they do not require it by any means necessary. As long as they don't require teamwork, they should require one player to take down. Otherwise you'll have players like duna2002 or milkman1 abusing the fact that the vehicle designed for "team-play" cannot be soled, and use them as a (for lack of a better term) "solopwnmobile".
With that reasoning, one could also say that a Forge Gunner shouldn't be soloed by vehicles simply because the Sentinel class emphasizes teamwork in the sense that it relies on a Logistics unit for ammunition, rallying (gotta re-spawn on that tower somehow right?), and recovering from a fight against a vehicle, as well as regaining health during an engagement against a vehicle.
However, you and I both know why making Forge Gunners unsoloable is a bad idea.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAND
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