DUST Search - Tankers against competent AV

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Nothing Certain wrote:

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Atiim wrote:

-snip- long quote

It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.

You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively

You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-

[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.

On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better?

You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one?

If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.

I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument.

I am arguing that if one av can destroy a vehicle solo then any combination will destroy a vehicle, even a well fit one, with ease. I am fine with the idea of it taking two av to kill one well skilled vehicle even if its a proto and a milita because of the substantial amount of isk that some vehicles cost. Obviously milita tanks are broken and I agree that they need a large price increase or a Nerf to bring them in line.
I am a dropship pilot main, though I also operate missile tanks for fun. With dropships I run with a crew of 2-4 mercs depending on who is on. With the dropship pilot rendering issues I find that having a gunner is nessesary as they can see threats I simply cannot. Even on my missile tank I have gunners come along to deal with infantry as the large missile turret isn't effective against infantry, and from what I'm hearing from blaster hav operators the dispertion Nerf has affected them. Hopefully this leads to more hav operators fitting turrets to combat infantry.

Although it does take two av working together to kill a well fit dropship it only takes one to deny the area to it and that protects his ground team. Tanks of course are another story, but you cannot talk av without including every form of vehicle in those talks.


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Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1803	Posted - 2014.06.14 16:41:00 - [1] - Quote Yes, because you totally can't just fit a teleportation- i mean NoS, and edcape instantly? Because it now requires 3-4 people to killyou reasonably? How about because (not you) some tankers drive a Sica with a blaster, and yet my Wyrrkomis on a Minmatar Commando can't kill them? How about an Incubus? Those things take 43% dmg from myswarms, and Ratatti doesn't find it unfair that pythons are 3 shotted, while an incubus needs 3 proto avers to even break reps. Caldari vehicles are underpowered. Die in a maddy that isn't a CreodronBreach and then tell us how not UP AV is. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1805	Posted - 2014.06.14 17:12:00 - [2] - Quote What's to stop a Maddy with a Railgun? Surely they now have superior anti-tank, and the ability to tank all buy missiles- which are donned by another tank. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1807	Posted - 2014.06.14 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: What's to stop a Maddy with a Railgun? Surely they now have superior anti-tank, and the ability to tank all buy missiles- which are donned by another tank. Try fitting one yet? There may be like 5 total players who can make a decent fit with that. Reminder you will have no DMG mods whereas the shield tank will have 2 with a hardner. It's called fitting optimizations My Railgun Maddy fit? Nitro/dmg mod Enhanced hvy rep Enhanced 120 plate Enhanced Light rep or a Basic Hvy rep. Basic or Adv railgun This fit relies on staying power, havinga plate, and outmaneuvering the LolsitstillAndFire Sica tankers. Tbh though, i rely on a Neutron blaster, as the tracking speed alows me to run (literal) circles around them. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1811	Posted - 2014.06.14 18:54:00 - [4] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Your problem is that your version of competent AV is multiple AVers outnumbering a lone HAV driver. 1 player should be able to counter any 1 other player at the same tier if they have the correct equipment. If HAV price is an issue for this to happen, then HAVs need a price reduction. no i just think that av working with tanks is more effective at dealing with enemy vehicles than just tanks alone. its how i did it in chromsome its how i do it now. So to kill a slayer logi it should require a slayer logi of equal tier + a Scout? Makes no damned sense to me. Why shouldn't it be te 'rock paper scissors' eve is so renowned for? Heavy kills assault, assault kills scout, scout kills heavy. Instead it's Heavy kills all, scout kills all, Assault kills mlt suits. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1822	Posted - 2014.06.15 02:58:00 - [5] - Quote I beleive, that if a player sacrifices an entire Tank fitting to surviving AV(shield boosters, hardeners, armor reps and plates) then they should be able to tank 1 AVer with almost impunity- that being they are in no danger of being killed anytime soon(like a Proto Heavy versus Mlt Ar person) However: a person who sacrifices their entire fitting/skillpoint allocation to kill a tank, theyshould make that tanker sh!t themselves and leave immediately, or die. If it's a Militia tank, fit fully defensively, they should reasonably tank a Mlt AVer, such that it would take 4-6 volleys to kill. Skilling to a Standard tank with full Standard mods should grant immunity to any single Mlt Swarmer eho relies entirely on swarms. If that Mlt swarmer sacrifices a nade or equipment to aid in the destruction o tanks, the Mlt one should die in 2 nades and a clip(3 shot) of swarms. If that Mlt Aver with Basic Av nades finds a Standard tank, it should require all of his ammo(assumibg current Mlt Swarm ammo) Skilling into Full out Prototype AV, and fitting 2 items should grant ability to 2 clip kill any -normal- Proto tank fitting, exception being a fully defensive fitting, requiring up to 3 clips to kill. av nades should reduce the # of clips by about 2/3 or 1. Hope this made sense. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1823	Posted - 2014.06.15 05:00:00 - [6] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: -snip- long quote It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners. You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence- [/list] Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument. I am arguing that if one av can destroy a vehicle solo then any combination will destroy a vehicle, even a well fit one, with ease. I am fine with the idea of it taking two av to kill one well skilled vehicle even if its a proto and a milita because of the substantial amount of isk that some vehicles cost. Obviously milita tanks are broken and I agree that they need a large price increase or a Nerf to bring them in line. I am a dropship pilot main, though I also operate missile tanks for fun. With dropships I run with a crew of 2-4 mercs depending on who is on. With the dropship pilot rendering issues I find that having a gunner is nessesary as they can see threats I simply cannot. Even on my missile tank I have gunners come along to deal with infantry as the large missile turret isn't effective against infantry, and from what I'm hearing from blaster hav operators the dispertion Nerf has affected them. Hopefully this leads to more hav operators fitting turrets to combat infantry. Although it does take two av working together to kill a well fit dropship it only takes one to deny the area to it and that protects his ground team. Tanks of course are another story, but you cannot talk av without including every form of vehicle in those talks. If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'? Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1823	Posted - 2014.06.15 06:01:00 - [7] - Quote True, although ultimately it boils down to DPS vs Reps, with Buffer only mattering once DPS goes over reps by X amount, as THEN the tank is in trouble. Just kinda sucks that tanks are able to outrep swarms unless they're paired with Alpha weaponry(nades/remotes) While it doesn't always boil down to "if X has Y, X beats Z when fitted with W" it has sorts become that way. Missile maddy, rep maddy, and Av. Missile maddy kills Rep maddy, rep maddy kills Av, Av kills Missile maddy. Sadly that only involves like 3 weapons out of the game. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!