DUST Search - Tankers against competent AV

Winst0n W0lf wrote:

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Atiim wrote:

-snip- long quote

It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.

You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively

You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-

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Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.

On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better?

You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one?

If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.

It should take 2 people to kill a well fit tank with a good pilot. It should not, however, take 2 people with proto AV to take out a scrub tanker in a mlt tank, which is how it has been for, what, 6 months now? One competent AV player should also be able to at least do some area denial, which is not the case.

Both the ISK and SP investments are horribly imbalanced. Alpha was a good step, but there's still more work to be done. Making tanks expensive again would be a pretty simple way to get there now.


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Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1005	Posted - 2014.06.14 15:58:00 - [1] - Quote At least where a gunnlogi is concerned, a forge gun and a swarmer SHRED an unhardened gunnlogi. Mind you both were at proto level, but still, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for those AVers that complain of unkillable tanks. AV played me, lured me in and eventually cut off my escape and surrounded me with their power. It was quite impressive. AV really shined last night. While I may have only lost but a few tanks to AV, they proved that they are not nearly as underpowered as they claim to be where a gunnlogi is concerned. Hardeners, of course, makes a huge difference against swarms. Though when you throw a forge gunner into the mix, you WILL have to limit your engagements severely, even with the hardeners. GG those AVers that actually try, and use tactics to overcome tankers on the field. It's amazing what you can do when you focus fire and coordinate. And it doesn't take half a team of AVers to do it! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1005	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:04:00 - [2] - Quote Winst0n W0lf wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: -snip- long quote It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners. You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence- [/list] Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. It should take 2 people to kill a well fit tank with a good pilot. It should not, however, take 2 people with proto AV to take out a scrub tanker in a mlt tank, which is how it has been for, what, 6 months now? One competent AV player should also be able to at least do some area denial, which is not the case. Both the ISK and SP investments are horribly imbalanced. Alpha was a good step, but there's still more work to be done. Making tanks expensive again would be a pretty simple way to get there now. That's my point, Proto tankers should be tough to take down, unlike MLT tankers. MLT swarms, should make a MLT tanker pause. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1005	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:17:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: Now that I've placed your 'logic' into a different perspective to show the obvious flaws with it, allow me to make some things apparent for anyone who doesn't feel like reading that drivel. It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners. You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence- Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? /facepalm Yes, I "allowed" myself to get trapped. Either that's how terrible I was, or that was how awesome they were. I had a back and forth MANY times with this group of AVers, I failed to mention I was running small proto rails with a large proto rail, and a single blueberry gunner. I played around the AV, continuously changing my position, keeping them disoriented. The other tanks on the field were simply dying to them, as I was keeping my presence known and strong. By no means did they have an easy time, and I just lost the one. What they did do was minimize my impact severely on the battlefield. While I may have topped the board in WP, they won the match. And a large part of that was keeping me suppressed (and the other tanks on the field), or pushing me off the point I was pushing. I've been driving a tank for over a year now, so yes, it takes 2 plus players to take me on. Or simply one sneaky player. And you misunderstood, the outcome would have been the same defensively fit. In fact, I may have very well been, as I recall running gunners, and my rail gunner fit uses double hardeners + a nitro. Either case, Proto AV can be a problem for gunnlogis. It's just that most AV hardly bother anymore. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1006	Posted - 2014.06.15 14:06:00 - [4] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'? Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die. I've said this many times, you don't have to "kill" the tank to deny the area. While AV can't simply kill me in a single clip of swarms or less like they used to, staying in an AV heavy area will result in death of my tank. And here is something nobody considers, what happens when 3 AV get together? Those 3 AV can take on not just ONE tank, but multiple tanks when their efforts are concentrated. No they won't kill in every situation, but they WILL PUSH BACK ANY TANK THAT APPROACHES. Much like the match I was describing in my OP. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1006	Posted - 2014.06.15 14:23:00 - [5] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Most of us AV'ers are arguing that two players with equal SP invested, equal ISK expenditure and equal skill should have equal chances of killing one another. This seems not only reasonable, but obvious. If you don't agree with this, please explain why. And I have a question, how effective is my large railgun or missile setups against AV? Considering they are not very effective at all when it comes to killing infantry compared to the blaster counterpart, why is it so important that these types of tanks be denied an area? I have been a railgun user, with the intent to use them against vehicles AND infantry, for a very long time now. I consider my aim a cut above most railgun users that attempt to AI with it. And I can still say that I miss A LOOOOT. With missiles, it's just insane how much I miss. I do better with the splash damage of the railgun. So on average, in a game void of tanks, and light on competent AV, I can maybe get 10 to 15 kills, some of those being kills to an LAV driver or 2. I see proto suit heavies and scouts consistently get more kills than that. More often than not though, I get maybe 7 kills, and upwards to 2000 WP for my efforts. So please explain how a railgun or missile setup (somebody) needs to be destroyed as soon as it rears it's face. I will admit that running gunners (good ones at that) results in a much higher kill count for the tank as a whole, but I'm also removing 2 extra people from the field. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1006	Posted - 2014.06.15 14:26:00 - [6] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: How about because (not you) some tankers drive a Sica with a blaster, and yet my Wyrrkomis on a Minmatar Commando can't kill them? . well maybe since you know. swarms = explosive shields = resistant to explosives swarms = ineffective. try flux grenades. then use the swarm. or better yet with the commando. plc + swarm or even better a medium frame. I really think that proto swarms shouldn't have as much a problem with a MLT tank as they do. Blame that though on the fact that the modules cooldowns are tiered and not the resistances provided. For those 24 seconds, a sica can gain as much resistance as a gunnlogi running 2 hardeners. I will say though, the cooldown is insanely long, so I imagine that kind of sica would be rather vulnerable for a long period of time afterwards. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1007	Posted - 2014.06.15 14:31:00 - [7] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Again, with this being said, I do believe that AV needs a slight tweak, but its getting to the right spot. AV should never compete with tanks for raw stats, because the nature of being an infantryman is that you have such a potential to be evasive and elusive, where vehicles struggle much of the time. You make some very good points. Infantry can use terrain to their advantage in area a tank just can't. Cities, high elevations, obstructions, ect. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1008	Posted - 2014.06.16 23:09:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I soloed a Gunlogi with a Forgegun...... admittedly Patrick57 was hacking it and had killed the operator...... but I did it! I soloed several gunnlogi (maddies too, triple reps is a ***** though) yesterday with my proto forge and packed (standard at that) AV nades. I admit I used an LAV so I didn't do it without the help of some vehicle. But man do I like 1500 -2500 WP a match running lone wolf:) Even tried out an ADV plasma cannon against a gunnlogi. At one point I picked up another plasma cannon user in my LAV, and we double shot a gunnlogi, didn't kill him but man did he run for his life. This was THROUGH a hardener. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1008	Posted - 2014.06.16 23:12:00 - [9] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Again, with this being said, I do believe that AV needs a slight tweak, but its getting to the right spot. AV should never compete with tanks for raw stats, because the nature of being an infantryman is that you have such a potential to be evasive and elusive, where vehicles struggle much of the time. You make some very good points. Infantry can use terrain to their advantage in area a tank just can't. Cities, high elevations, obstructions, ect. Tanks can't, but tankers can. You can wear the exact same dropsuit I am wearing inside of your tank. Pop out of your tank and you are at no disadvantage against me, pop into your tank and you once again have a huge advantage over me. So, no, tankers are not giving up anything. Thats an entirely different issue. I actually don't play this way unless it's a PC. Most times, I use my tank as a suit, and RARELY ever jump out. Not that I couldn't kill the guy with my gun, but because I can typically manage in my tank. Either with escape OR the kill. But something else to consider, my suit skills are weak, as most all my points are dumped into vehicles. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1008	Posted - 2014.06.16 23:15:00 - [10] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: True Adamance wrote: I soloed a Gunlogi with a Forgegun...... admittedly Patrick57 was hacking it and had killed the operator...... but I did it! I soloed several gunnlogi (maddies too, triple reps is a ***** though) yesterday with my proto forge and packed (standard at that) AV nades. I admit I used an LAV so I didn't do it without the help of some vehicle. But man do I like 1500 -2500 WP a match running lone wolf:) Even tried out an ADV plasma cannon against a gunnlogi. At one point I picked up another plasma cannon user in my LAV, and we double shot a gunnlogi, didn't kill him but man did he run for his life. This was THROUGH a hardener. I'm really not skilled for Forges and don't often use them My alt is, and man do I love that AFG. With a decent aim, tanks just cry. Dropships too, but that requires some pretty insane aim at times. Tanks - Balancing Turrets