Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

1.6 damage was fine. And There's other bonuses that don't break balance (optimal range and falloff are good ones).

And no, We don't need to come back to this TTK ever.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point.

Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

Good point

Good point

Sorry but I dare to say: NOT a good point.
The system described would be a return to the dark ages.

Why?
Because balance has to be created taking the maximum skills into consideration. Sure no one has every single skill maxed - but on single field like vehicles even alts have maximums. People will max narrow areas in masses. Those maxed out chars will go out against each other - and junior players as well.


In that environment the REAL ttk on vehicles would still be as low as now - on field it would seem that tanks for example live longer and are vital lions hunting. But those would be the high-SP tankers while anyone not maxed out would be the prey. Until they get that 22M SP for tanks...


Abovementioned tanks are just one example. The same goes to suit balance and all weapons.
The highest possible combination sets the par in all balance design. If ignored, it there will be opening for another FOTM.


During the years of Dust developement the biggest improvements have been getting away from the hard skill bonuses (proficency +2%s, AR operation +5%s and - sigh - blanket weaponry +5%) into soft bonuses.
Soft bonuses are ones like smaller dispersion, faster reload, faster turret rotation. Those make skilling up interesting but not knife-on-the throat mandatory.
Hard bonuses make SP king. Hard bonuses are the dark middle ages.

Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

To make it clear, my stance on 'unlocking-only'-skills is that they are dull.
Every skill should grant some bonus - but a soft one.

That's not the problem with SP, it's a problem with fundamental game design. Eve has lots of skills that give "Hard bonuses" like damage and optimal range. These are fine because low skill characters without those trained up have safe places to do their thing, like PVE missions and such. True matchmaking would help out greatly with this. But skills should definitely confer a bonus, up to and including raw damage. If you've invested the SP, you should gain an advantage, plain and simple.

I will say this though, that it can definitely cause an imbalance if the skills are too powerful. But giving flat nerfs and returning them through skills, gives CCP a way to more easily adjust things.

Let's take large railguns again. As mentioned before, give a flat 15% nerf and return it through 3% per level of operation. Now CCP thinks this is too much, and wants to tone it down. Now they can either a. adjust railgun damage directly or b. reduce how much the skill gives, like to 2% instead. This can complicate things y having many variables, but it also allows more fine tuned tweaking to happen.

I totally agree with you.

You want hard bonuses?
Those are called higher tier equipment. Run proto if you want more damage.
Skills should give soft bonuses. Otherwise you have proto stompers that not only run proto, but also get massive skill gains.
That issue already exists, as most of the tanking module skills increase the strength of their associated modules, but this would make it even worse.

However, I really wish the pure unlock skills would grant actual bonuses. There should be a point to level dropsuit command, basic dropsuits or HAV/LAV/DS operation to level 5.

I think you guys are missing the point. If you read the OP, I said the skills were examples. It could be decreased heat buildup, less recoil, whatever, as long as it confers a bonus. I run advanced/standard gear all day, with suits under 30k, and do well because I have good skills. This should be the case with all the skills. There are plenty that don't need to be higher than 3, or even 1 sometimes, because that unlocks everything you need. I should WANT to take skills to 5.

Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

To make it clear, my stance on 'unlocking-only'-skills is that they are dull.
Every skill should grant some bonus - but a soft one.

Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir.

o7

That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this.

So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks.

Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades.

Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at.

So vehicle Engineering and Electronics return with fitting bonuses... cool...

Going to Spitball some Ideas
Dropsuit Command +1% to Dropsuit Total HP
-Amarr Heavy -1% to heat build up per level
-Amarr Medium +2% Armor Resistance To Explosive and Projectile Damage per level
-Amarr Light -4% per level for Biotic Module (All Types) costs
-Caldari Heavy -2% to Charge Times Per Level
-Cadari Medium +3% Shield Recharge Rate per Level
-Caldari Light +2% bonus to Hybrid/Rail Optimal Range per Level
-Gallente Heavy +5% to Clip Size
-Gallente Medium +4% to Armor Repair Module Bonus
-Gallente Light +5% to Active Scanner Recharge
-Minmatar Heavy +2% ROF per Level
-Minmatar Medium +2% Shield Resistance to Lasers
-Minmatar Light +2% to Walk Speed
Dropsuit Upgrades -1% to Module Fitting Costs
-Active Scanner +2% to Active Scanner Range
-Cloak Field +1% to Cooldown Reovery
-Nanocircutry +3 Nanite Clusters per level
-Repair Tool Operation +3 HP/s to reps per Level
-Drop Uplinks +2 Spawns Per Link per Level
Weaponry +1% to Weapon Damage
-Grenadier +10% to Grenade throw range
-Demolitions +2% Remote Explosive/Proximity Explosive Damage
Vehicle Operation +1% to Vehicle HP Per Level
-LAV Operation +2% LAV Acceleration per Level
-DS Operation +2% to Dropship Maneuverability per level
-HAV Operation +2% Fitting Reuction to Heavy Plates, Shield Extenders, Large Armor Reps and Large Shield Boosts
Vehicle Updgrades +1% reduction to Module Fitting Requirements
-Armor/Shield Upgrades +5% Armor/shield per Level
-Core upgrades +1% to PG and CPU Per Level
-Engeineering/Electronics +5% to PG/CPU
-Turret Modifiers +1% to Efficacy
Turret Operation +1% to turret Damage per level
-Small/Large Turret -3% CPU needs
-Small/Large Blaster +5% reduction to heat build up
-Small/Large Missle Turret +10% to Missle Speed
-Small/Large Rail -4% to Spool up time per level
Corporations
Make all Corp Skills Equal to in EVE...

There's something, social skills. Increase risk/lp payouts per level, or increase standings gained per level.

So vehicle Engineering and Electronics return with fitting bonuses... cool...

Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever.

Vehicle TTK is low? What are you smoking? Defensively stacked tanks will hands down beat a damage stacked tank so everyone runs defensive stacked tanks. These tanks take almost an entire clip to kill and if you keep your tanking moving they may miss a shot or two causing one or both parties to reload. IT TAKES F*CKING FOREVER.

Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point.

Good point

So basically nerf items but allow people who spend enough SP to keep their OP stats?

I can't be the only one who thinks this is a terrible idea.

your ideas only serve to undermine the beauty and uniqueness of the skillbook system and tree this game uses...

I agree with the OP... the new eden experience is all about reward for investment. using skillbooks as part of the plan for balancing is a no brainer. unlocking skills should be mandatory if you want to have something powerful in this game. a new player vs a vet should never even come into question, because if you try to balance based on this it makes investment pointless.

if there were proper matchmaking that wouldn't even be an issue. balancing should be viewed from equal tiers, and skillbooks are an important part of doing this.