DUST Search - Rattati: You're overlooking your best tool for balancing.

KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

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OP POST
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Good point

Sorry but I dare to say: NOT a good point.
The system described would be a return to the dark ages.

Why?
Because balance has to be created taking the maximum skills into consideration. Sure no one has every single skill maxed - but on single field like vehicles even alts have maximums. People will max narrow areas in masses. Those maxed out chars will go out against each other - and junior players as well.

In that environment the REAL ttk on vehicles would still be as low as now - on field it would seem that tanks for example live longer and are vital lions hunting. But those would be the high-SP tankers while anyone not maxed out would be the prey. Until they get that 22M SP for tanks...

Abovementioned tanks are just one example. The same goes to suit balance and all weapons.
The highest possible combination sets the par in all balance design. If ignored, it there will be opening for another FOTM.

During the years of Dust developement the biggest improvements have been getting away from the hard skill bonuses (proficency +2%s, AR operation +5%s and - sigh - blanket weaponry +5%) into soft bonuses.
Soft bonuses are ones like smaller dispersion, faster reload, faster turret rotation. Those make skilling up interesting but not knife-on-the throat mandatory.
Hard bonuses make SP king. Hard bonuses are the dark middle ages.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1297	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:50:00 - [1] - Quote Before I begin, I want to say that I love your candor and activity on the forums. While I may not always agree with your changes, your presence and responses to the community are deeply appreciated, and I give you a salute good sir. o7 That said, you are missing one of the biggest assets you have to balance the game. the answer is SKILLBOOKS. So many skillbooks do nothing more than unlock the different tiers. By comparison, I can count the skills that only unlock things in eve on my fingers. Every skill, with very few and very notable exceptions, should give a player a bonus to something, be it a weapon, a suit, a module, whatever. I'll focus on vehicles since I mainly run vehicles. Let's take large railguns. Combined with damage mods, a no skills railgun can kill any tank in 4 shots or less, and only armor stacked maddies can take that 4th shot. Vehicle TTK is low because of this. So why not nerf large railgun damage by a flat 15% across the board, and then give the LArge Railgun Operation skill a 3% bonus to large railgun damage per level, returning original damage at level 5? now a no skills character is at a disadvantage, while those of us who invested into it can continue on as we were, without worrying about no skills characters downing our skill and isk invested tanks. Damage mods are too powerful? Nerf them by a flat 50%, and give 10% efficiency per level of Vehicle Turret Upgrades. Active Scanners too powerful? Nerf their precision by 10% and give 2% per level of Active Scanner Operation. Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Give those of us who invest the SP gain an advantage over those who do not, beyond unlocking better gear that can be bypassed rather easily with AUR/LP. This also solves some of your railgun issues by nerfing the real problem (people with no skills in vehicles are getting the same benefit as someone with level 5 in everything) while keeping the ones who have invested where they are at. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1299	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: 1.6 damage was fine. And There's other bonuses that don't break balance (optimal range and falloff are good ones). And no, We don't need to come back to this TTK ever. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1303	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:42:00 - [3] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: . . . OP POST . . . Good point Sorry but I dare to say: NOT a good point. The system described would be a return to the dark ages. Why? Because balance has to be created taking the maximum skills into consideration. Sure no one has every single skill maxed - but on single field like vehicles even alts have maximums. People will max narrow areas in masses. Those maxed out chars will go out against each other - and junior players as well. In that environment the REAL ttk on vehicles would still be as low as now - on field it would seem that tanks for example live longer and are vital lions hunting. But those would be the high-SP tankers while anyone not maxed out would be the prey. Until they get that 22M SP for tanks... Abovementioned tanks are just one example. The same goes to suit balance and all weapons. The highest possible combination sets the par in all balance design. If ignored, it there will be opening for another FOTM. During the years of Dust developement the biggest improvements have been getting away from the hard skill bonuses (proficency +2%s, AR operation +5%s and - sigh - blanket weaponry +5%) into soft bonuses. Soft bonuses are ones like smaller dispersion, faster reload, faster turret rotation. Those make skilling up interesting but not knife-on-the throat mandatory. Hard bonuses make SP king. Hard bonuses are the dark middle ages. That's not the problem with SP, it's a problem with fundamental game design. Eve has lots of skills that give "Hard bonuses" like damage and optimal range. These are fine because low skill characters without those trained up have safe places to do their thing, like PVE missions and such. True matchmaking would help out greatly with this. But skills should definitely confer a bonus, up to and including raw damage. If you've invested the SP, you should gain an advantage, plain and simple. I will say this though, that it can definitely cause an imbalance if the skills are too powerful. But giving flat nerfs and returning them through skills, gives CCP a way to more easily adjust things. Let's take large railguns again. As mentioned before, give a flat 15% nerf and return it through 3% per level of operation. Now CCP thinks this is too much, and wants to tone it down. Now they can either a. adjust railgun damage directly or b. reduce how much the skill gives, like to 2% instead. This can complicate things y having many variables, but it also allows more fine tuned tweaking to happen. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1315	Posted - 2014.06.12 23:13:00 - [4] - Quote I think you guys are missing the point. If you read the OP, I said the skills were examples. It could be decreased heat buildup, less recoil, whatever, as long as it confers a bonus. I run advanced/standard gear all day, with suits under 30k, and do well because I have good skills. This should be the case with all the skills. There are plenty that don't need to be higher than 3, or even 1 sometimes, because that unlocks everything you need. I should WANT to take skills to 5. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1339	Posted - 2014.06.18 02:09:00 - [5] - Quote There's something, social skills. Increase risk/lp payouts per level, or increase standings gained per level. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1430	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:29:00 - [6] - Quote So Rattati, what're your thoughts since you last posted? Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1669	Posted - 2014.09.03 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote Bump. Rattati and CPM, thoughts on this? Shoot Scout with yes.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1678	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:41:00 - [8] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Vehicle TTK is low? What are you smoking? Defensively stacked tanks will hands down beat a damage stacked tank so everyone runs defensive stacked tanks. These tanks take almost an entire clip to kill and if you keep your tanking moving they may miss a shot or two causing one or both parties to reload. IT TAKES FCKING FOREVER. Alena Ventrallis nearly 3 months ago wrote:* Use whatever numbers you feel are best, these are just examples to demonstrate the point. Shoot Scout with yes.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1680	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:58:00 - [9] - Quote Come on dude, they were EXAMPLES. It can be anything, I just want the skillbooks to do something other than unlock tiers. Everything in Eve confers me a bonus, why is it almost the total opposite here? Shoot Scout with yes.