DUST Search - [Feedback] Removing Vehicles from Ambush

Aeon Amadi wrote:

This harkens back to the fact that Vehicles, without a clear cut role, are just better slayers. They essentially perform the same way as Infantry, only being immune to a large portion of the small arms in the game.

Vehicles thrive in Ambush -because- there are no objectives. When the only thing you have to do is kill the enemy, it leads to power imbalances whenever a playstyle like tanks are implemented. By removing vehicles, it does certainly help the infantry a great deal but in the same sense, it also slaughters a lot of options for vehicle users who want to play a game-mode that utilizes what their specialization is all about: Makin' **** dead.

I'm not necessarily for removing vehicles in Ambush because I think that it limits a player's playstyle and forces segregation artificially, but I can see the benefit of it being implemented. My considerations are that many of the maps, while not optimized for vehicle - Infantry play, aren't optimized for solely infantry play either. Many Ambush maps have -HUGE- stretches of space that have to be traveled just to get any sort of decent combat. Impact Ridge is especially bad about this.

Ultimately, I don't think this is really going to make much adjustment to the game as a whole; it'll just force vehicle users to play in other game modes where the Vehicle vs AV balance will only rear it's ugly head even more as Skirmish/Domination still have higher vehicle caps. I think this proposal should wait until Hotfix Charlie so we have time to see the effects of changes made to that balance before we grab the cleaver and hack off a limb.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
emtbraincase Savage Bullet 179	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:54:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is sure to be a flammable topic. Here are a few of our reasons: 1) There is no Vehicle free mode - "Normal" TDM that most fps players are used to in other games 2) Public Ambush is farmed relentlessly by high level vehicle users 3) Many of our maps are simply not optimal for joint infantry - vehicle gameplay 4) Objective-based gameplay breeds more tactical gameplay, making it more likely that vehicles are used to capture and defend Objectives, while it is also more likely that infantry is able to counter vehicles with their own AV weapons. Please discuss and keep it civil, I am sure there will be a few disappointed vehicle users but we believe this is better for DUST 514 overall. Give 2 ambush choices. 1) Reinstitute "Ambush OMS" (80 man w/ cru/sd/turret ONLY)=includes vehicles and utilizes same rules as Dom/Skirm for numbers 2) Current "Ambush"(80 man without cru/sd/turret or any 50 man)=no vehicles at all. No specific bonus to points for playing one mode v another. Only benefit to infantry is the added payout for taking out tanks already present. Simple, problem solved. P.S. This is likely already stated because it has been discussed by most everyone I know, but just in case I wanted to put it out there. Credit goes to many people for simplicity, not myself. We agreed it did what it needed, without changing anything.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2762	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:02:00 - [62] - Quote Either remove vehicles from ambush or make it so a tank can't solo an entire match with little to no fear. It takes one man to operate with little to no difficulty, so it should take one man to put it down with little to no difficulty. Deal with it. Bonus points if proto and adv av weapons are removed since we only have basic tanks released, and av is balanced from there. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:05:00 - [63] - Quote Meee One wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: NO that is good idea...but, isnt fairness for Vehicle only users... >Nyain San . So NS, even something wrong?pÇÇ In the first place, there is a problem with the CCPs balance adjustment of the vehicle. No problem for me, but vehicle users motivation decreases...
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 958	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:07:00 - [64] - Quote please remove vehicles from Ambush and Ambush OMS, unless you can choose which Ambush you want to play. If possible reduce the size of the maps as they are far too big for TDM as much of the space is wasted. Public Relations - tick tick BOOM. PSN: CallOfTheDark
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 599	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:11:00 - [65] - Quote I think the best way to test this is to make ambush under the battle finder go to OMS only with vehicles allowed and put regular ambush under the special contracts option for a week or two. Once a winner has been chosen that can remain in the battle finder while the special contract is removed. That slot is not being used for anything else so may as well make it a way for the actual in game users who do not come to the forums to cast their vote. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Will Driver Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 68	Posted - 2014.06.10 00:20:00 - [66] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: I would say for balancing reasons you should splitt ambush OMS (80 clones) and regular ambush (50 clones). Allow vehicles in OMS and prohibit the usage of any vehicle in the regular variant. The reason behind this is that you can change out on supply depots for AV. I think this is a good idea. I'd make ambush OMS and ambush with these vehicle characteristics, but make them separate, selectable types of matches. The community will sort it out by the choices we make collectively as to which one (or both) we want to play. GÇ£Creativity is knowing how to hide your sourcesGÇ¥ GÇò Albert Einstein
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 7	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:33:00 - [67] - Quote how about an infantry only ambush mode called unemployable or UDM where large objects like vehicles or installations cannot be deployed, essentially the exact opposite of OMS getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 7	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:34:00 - [68] - Quote and have similar modes for skirm and dom especially dom getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 828	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:41:00 - [69] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: Meee One wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: NO that is good idea...but, isnt fairness for Vehicle only users... >Nyain San . So NS, even something wrong?pÇÇ In the first place, there is a problem with the CCPs balance adjustment of the vehicle. No problem for me, but vehicle users motivation decreases... Cry me a river please. ADSs can wreck Pro suits with 2 shots,yet if suits fight back the ADS gets the chance to escape. Fair? No -But ADSs are so expensive! Count the isk lost by other players vs the isk cost of the ADS,the ADS does much more damage than it costs. The same applies to HAVs,having a mode without these leeches will be refreshing.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2560	Posted - 2014.06.10 03:47:00 - [70] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: This harkens back to the fact that Vehicles, without a clear cut role, are just better slayers. They essentially perform the same way as Infantry, only being immune to a large portion of the small arms in the game. Vehicles thrive in Ambush -because- there are no objectives. When the only thing you have to do is kill the enemy, it leads to power imbalances whenever a playstyle like tanks are implemented. By removing vehicles, it does certainly help the infantry a great deal but in the same sense, it also slaughters a lot of options for vehicle users who want to play a game-mode that utilizes what their specialization is all about: Makin' **** dead. I'm not necessarily for removing vehicles in Ambush because I think that it limits a player's playstyle and forces segregation artificially, but I can see the benefit of it being implemented. My considerations are that many of the maps, while not optimized for vehicle - Infantry play, aren't optimized for solely infantry play either. Many Ambush maps have -HUGE- stretches of space that have to be traveled just to get any sort of decent combat. Impact Ridge is especially bad about this. Ultimately, I don't think this is really going to make much adjustment to the game as a whole; it'll just force vehicle users to play in other game modes where the Vehicle vs AV balance will only rear it's ugly head even more as Skirmish/Domination still have higher vehicle caps. I think this proposal should wait until Hotfix Charlie so we have time to see the effects of changes made to that balance before we grab the cleaver and hack off a limb. This click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Greasepalms Ahrendee Mercenaries 586	Posted - 2014.06.10 04:08:00 - [71] - Quote remove standard ambush or add supply depots to them at the very least.
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 39	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:05:00 - [72] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: I would say for balancing reasons you should splitt ambush OMS (80 clones) and regular ambush (50 clones). Allow vehicles in OMS and prohibit the usage of any vehicle in the regular variant. The reason behind this is that you can change out on supply depots for AV. Nice. Ambush only infantry. Ambush OMS vehivles allowed. i like the idea. i will not even touch OMS :)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4390	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:05:00 - [73] - Quote Meee One wrote: Cry me a river please. I'd really rather you didn't ask people to do that. To cry someone a river would not only dehydrate someone to the point of critical levels, it would also introduce a salt water element in-land which is generally bad for the environment. If you have ever visited Salt Lake in person, you know just how nasty that place is.
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1184	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:05:00 - [74] - Quote http://i.imgur.com/N8GGasO.jpg http://i.imgur.com/43NWLRt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jynwE3j.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MUk32De.jpg Source
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1440	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:02:00 - [75] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: I will leave you with a few pix...great how tanks can 1 v 1 a clone on the ground http://i.imgur.com/N8GGasO.jpg http://i.imgur.com/43NWLRt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jynwE3j.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MUk32De.jpg Source If this isn't evidence enough to eliminate vehicles from ambush I don't know what is. Thank you for including these pictures... Unfortunately this sometimes is the bread and butter of ambush. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:29:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Please discuss and keep it civil, I am sure there will be a few disappointed vehicle users but we believe this is better for DUST 514 overall. [grabs a bucket for their tears] Fluoride uranium carbon potassium bismuth technetium helium sulfur germanium thulium Molybdenum neon yttrium
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 993	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:23:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is sure to be a flammable topic. Here are a few of our reasons: 1) There is no Vehicle free mode - "Normal" TDM that most fps players are used to in other games 2) Public Ambush is farmed relentlessly by high level vehicle users 3) Many of our maps are simply not optimal for joint infantry - vehicle gameplay 4) Objective-based gameplay breeds more tactical gameplay, making it more likely that vehicles are used to capture and defend Objectives, while it is also more likely that infantry is able to counter vehicles with their own AV weapons. Please discuss and keep it civil, I am sure there will be a few disappointed vehicle users but we believe this is better for DUST 514 overall. Do it, and do it now. I play ambush because I'm looking to kill some infantry. Not to be FORCED to call in a tank to deal with the other tanks out on the field. Not to mention how incredibly easy it is to deny the other team any means of calling a tank in to counter the tankers on the field. Tanks in ambush, given the smaller sizes of the map, lack of a redline, and poor spawn locations, make things VERY one sided. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 648	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:49:00 - [78] - Quote expand the map and set caps on vehicles by type hav(2) lav (4-6)or derpship(2-4), expand the map make it more sandbox
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:34:00 - [79] - Quote Attention CCP You have the chance to do something great check this out. 1.The place for Vehicles is to balance them only against vehicles by having only vehicle battle maps. 2.You could make the Eve version of World of Tanks but make it a Universe of Tanks with Air support, Leave the foot soldier out of this they have their fps maps. Now with only vehicles balance them like you space ships .Lore aspect could be the clones are hardwired into vehicles like pods of space ship. War Thundar yesterday had 40,000 people playing with 1500 battles. Just do it.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:39:00 - [80] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: Attention CCP You have the chance to do something great check this out. 1.The place for Vehicles is to balance them only against vehicles by having only vehicle battle maps. 2.You could make the Eve version of World of Tanks but make it a Universe of Tanks with Air support, Leave the foot soldier out of this they have their fps maps. Now with only vehicles balance them like your space ships .Lore aspect could be the clones are hardwired into vehicles like pods of space ship. War Thundar yesterday had 40,000 people playing with 1500 battles. Just do it. Eve has fleets were ships group together Eve Universe of Tanks could have Vehicles that group by squad or platoon so platoon commander could maneuver the group while you shoot.

Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 458	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:42:00 - [81] - Quote Forcing segregation is bad ..... Forcing segregation without offering a decent alternative is worse . Ambush is the quick and dirty match . something to do when you don't have time or the patience to commit to the longer matches of Skirm and Dom . To lock out a decent portion of your base from quick matches and forcing them to commit to long slogs simply due to Sp allocation can quickly lead to burn out which leads to quiting in frustration . You must have a replacement quick match for the segregated ..... you can't just leave them in the cold. And I say this as one who has practically no points in vehicles. We invest a lot of SP in our roles through a lot of time . No one deserves to have the time and SP simply devalued . No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1061	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:29:00 - [82] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: OP POST I strongly urge the following: - Make sure that the new 'vehicle free ambush' is not a new game mode to queue into. An extra mode would further splinter limited pool of players into smaller shards. (It's highly likely that current playerbase can't support more modes than AMB, SKIRM, DOM, FW Amarr-Min, FW Cald-Gall multiplied by the region servers. That's 20 combos already, not counting PC.) - Consider that there are different types of vehicles, not just the one-man ++bersuit HAVs. Yes yes DSs and LAVs can be potent and getting tons of kills (even LAV gunning can be nice 15+ kdrs nowadays) but they not nearly as blatant as kill farming tools as tanks. (BTW the current vehicle limit denying LAVs sucks). - A new map in circulation in which HAV navigation would be extremely painful would do the trick as well! An elegant solution, yes? :-S
Guiltless D667 37	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:47:00 - [83] - Quote I dont like to repeat myself so ill just leave this here. Guiltless D667 wrote: If it's not one thing, it's another. Ambush struggles with what kind of mode it wants to be and the tipping of power during each match puts vehicles in favor of the mode because of the very layout of the maps and the scarcity of focused troop resistance whether it's the availability of conveniently placed suppy depos,spawns or cover in the wide open nature that most maps seem to exhibit. Sometimes it's just better to get rid of the problem instead of trying to fix it by doing 9 billion other things A Strange Game.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2312	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:35:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is sure to be a flammable topic. Here are a few of our reasons: 1) There is no Vehicle free mode - "Normal" TDM that most fps players are used to in other games 2) Public Ambush is farmed relentlessly by high level vehicle users 3) Many of our maps are simply not optimal for joint infantry - vehicle gameplay 4) Objective-based gameplay breeds more tactical gameplay, making it more likely that vehicles are used to capture and defend Objectives, while it is also more likely that infantry is able to counter vehicles with their own AV weapons. Please discuss and keep it civil, I am sure there will be a few disappointed vehicle users but we believe this is better for DUST 514 overall. In order; Proper Vehicle and AV balance would negate the need for such a thing. There are limited game modes and telling an entire segment of the player base (those who dedicated themselves to vehicles, and those who are dedicated AV) that their SP isn't allowed to count within an entire play style seems sub-optimal as far as resolutions go. This is partly due to the way rewards work, once cap is reached ambush becomes the most effective way to grind. This combined with the AV vs Vehicle disparities results in the noted trend. In short it's a symptom with other and deeper roots. This is true and, the first more directly compelling reason to consider such a change. The prior two reasons have other and better solutions. This is also true, and frankly problematic in that ambush is the most rewarded game play mode (when considering que time et al) for grinding post cap. There are reasons for this of course, but having one mode be the primary source of 'income' once cap is reached and having that mode be the least tactical game mode is, to be blunt, sub-optimal. If this is a temporary band aid while other more meaningful fixes are implemented then it seems quite legitimate. If however this is meant as the final solution is trikes me as lacking in several meaningful ways. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 179	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:48:00 - [85] - Quote I think that OMS should have vehicles, but the other kind shouldnt. Vehicle users and AV users are going to be really pissed about removing vehicles altogether. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
anaboop Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 97	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:04:00 - [86] - Quote Give vehicles a small amount of ammo once they spawn in, forcing vehicle users to "need" a supply depot, in order to stock upto the maximum, lack of ammo in ambush would be good for infantry, and forcing tank spammers to be conservative with ammo on ambushes. Fully sick Anaboop trading card
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3243	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:11:00 - [87] - Quote Look at it from a different perspective: new players jump into ambush and get spawn killed over and over because there are 2 tanks screwing everything up. Would you stick to a game where you can do allmost nothing at all vs maxed out tankers that just farm kills? I highly doubt that. Another thing is as soon the opposition has 2 tanks on the field its impossible for yourself to get a vehicle without the enemy noticing that and rushing the drop location to shot it while its still hanging underneath the bolas. Its ensuring that the winning team keeps winning without even a slight chance for a comeback. Vehicles are toxic for ambush and only benefit the selfish scrubs like duna2002 who farm kills on ambush.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1440	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:16:00 - [88] - Quote VIDEO hello, Here is a small video about what happens in ambush. While the tank action is not up in your face the killfeed and the end result is still there. The necessary info is in the beginning which is basically the end result of the tankers in the match. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
MINA Longstrike 851	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:47:00 - [89] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Look at it from a different perspective: new players jump into ambush and get spawn killed over and over because there are 2 tanks screwing everything up. Would you stick to a game where you can do allmost nothing at all vs maxed out tankers that just farm kills? I highly doubt that. Another thing is as soon the opposition has 2 tanks on the field its impossible for yourself to get a vehicle without the enemy noticing that and rushing the drop location to shot it while its still hanging underneath the bolas. Its ensuring that the winning team keeps winning without even a slight chance for a comeback. Vehicles are toxic for ambush and only benefit the selfish scrubs like duna2002 who farm kills on ambush. Tankbush wasn't a thing until 1.7 Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2572	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:53:00 - [90] - Quote anaboop wrote: Give vehicles a small amount of ammo once they spawn in, forcing vehicle users to "need" a supply depot, in order to stock upto the maximum, lack of ammo in ambush would be good for infantry, and forcing tank spammers to be conservative with ammo on ambushes. ................................................................. No, I'm not going to do it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-



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