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[Suggestion] Sidearm only Scouts?

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Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1802	Posted - 2014.06.02 16:42:00 - [1] - Quote If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1270	Posted - 2014.06.02 17:55:00 - [2] - Quote Sure! But while you're at it, also limit: * Tanks to Rail Turrets * Dropships to Transport * HMGs to 10 meters * Logis to Reppers This way, Scouts won't be alone when they walk out on Dust. Personally, I like Rattati's approach a 'bit more than yours. But what do I know? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Forever ETC Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 494	Posted - 2014.06.02 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote Only if they can dual wield them. Magsec on my left and Scrambler Pistol on my right. Lock me Bro. I DARE YOU!!! For PS News Join This Channel
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2014.06.02 18:02:00 - [4] - Quote -5 I love my shotgun, and others love their plc. XD Support Balancing scouts
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1803	Posted - 2014.06.02 18:21:00 - [5] - Quote Forever ETC wrote: Only if they can dual wield them. Magsec on my left and Scrambler Pistol on my right. They still keep their two weapon slots, so yes you can "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3182	Posted - 2014.06.02 18:24:00 - [6] - Quote No we had this discussion aswell for logis when they where the commonly used thing. And every 1 admitts that it is stupid as hell. And i do like to use Av weapons as a scout which allows me to sneak up to tanks without getting murdered.
TheEnd762 Sver true blood Dirt Nap Squad. 498	Posted - 2014.06.02 18:59:00 - [7] - Quote Not unless they make the Sniper Rifle a sidearm as well.
Gemini Cuspid Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 76	Posted - 2014.06.02 20:27:00 - [8] - Quote Harpyja wrote: If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms It's not a question of the weapon itself but the accumulation of how the scout bonuses in conjunction with specific equipment and the inability of CCP to address cloak bugs that creates the overall overpopulation of scouts. If you can make a scout outperform what an assault suit does with bigger advantages in being undetectable, then that's the problem area. Add to it that nerfs on active scanners doesn't really do much to help you avoid them either and even if they weren't nerf you can pretty much assure yourself of 100% being invisible to scanners once your cloak is active. And there in lays the problem: any fix to this particular issue itself means addressing tons of equipment and suits and CCP really sucks at balancing stuff in this game. I haven't really seen them "balance" anything in good, comfortable direction.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 854	Posted - 2014.06.02 20:52:00 - [9] - Quote If scouts are outperforming other suits, I'd say the onus is on those "other suits." I am a minotaur.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 167	Posted - 2014.06.02 21:18:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sure! But while you're at it, also limit: * Tanks to Rail Turrets * Dropships to Transport * HMGs to 10 meters * Logis to Reppers This way, Scouts won't be alone when they walk out on Dust. I like Rattati's current approach a 'bit more than yours. Scouts are getting nerfed, plenty enough as is. Is it not yet time to sh*t on other classes? Edit: Don't you drive a Tank? :: facepalm :: True... shouldn't tanks have to switch to a anti infantry weapon? Rails not good against infantry? Try killing a tank with an assault rifle. And if I jump on a tank a couple times why doesn't it get road killed? Lonewolf till I die

JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 174	Posted - 2014.06.03 01:37:00 - [11] - Quote I'd be ok with this, but the Shotgun should remain a light weapon. This would mean: 1.- The scout playstyle will be for scouting, eWar, squad intel, etc... as it always should have been. 2.- The Shotgun becomes a viable weapon for assaults and commandos (this way being more balanced. It would also make sense then to fit profile dampeners and kincats in medium suits instead of tanking modules, more variety). 3.- Assault suits are interesting again. I love my scout, but i've been thinking a lot about this. I'd be happy doing scouty stuff instead of slaying people and denying the assault role completely. +1
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 297	Posted - 2014.06.03 01:42:00 - [12] - Quote I'm a scout and all I use is nova knives and assault-breach pistol All eyes on me till you drop dead in your Blood mmmm yummy
castba Penguin's March 459	Posted - 2014.06.03 01:46:00 - [13] - Quote Tankers giving suggestions to balance infantry. This can only make the game better!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1809	Posted - 2014.06.03 02:06:00 - [14] - Quote castba wrote: Tankers giving suggestions to balance infantry. This can only make the game better! I'm not just a tanker. Yes I'm only specialized into vehicles on this character, but I also have an alt specialized into Amarr assault, on which I've been spending the majority of my time as I cannot stand the vehicle imbalances anymore. My opinion on infantry balance is valid. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
castba Penguin's March 460	Posted - 2014.06.03 02:15:00 - [15] - Quote Everyone's opinion is valid. One's no more than the next. I guess it just depends whether you can rally enough like minded people or influence the powers that be (or both). I don't agree although I do see the logic in your point. I would be concerned with shot guns as a sidearm though
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 965	Posted - 2014.06.03 10:00:00 - [16] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: I'd be ok with this, but the Shotgun should remain a light weapon. This would mean: 1.- The scout playstyle will be for scouting, eWar, squad intel, etc... as it always should have been. 2.- The Shotgun becomes a viable weapon for assaults and commandos (this way being more balanced. It would also make sense then to fit profile dampeners and kincats in medium suits instead of tanking modules, more variety). 3.- Assault suits are interesting again. I love my scout, but i've been thinking a lot about this. I'd be happy doing scouty stuff instead of slaying people and denying the assault role completely. +1 Its juts scouts CAN'T scout CCP removed the ability to actually scout from scouts. Well maybe apart the glitched Cal scout ut this seems to be a bug. As CCP removed shared Team view they also removed the ability to scout for your team/squad. Also scanners are more useful for scouting than scouts more range and more precision especially on the gal logi. To make things worse using a scanner rewards you with WP passive scouting don't. How are scouts supposed to gain WP? Honestly what needs to go is the scanprofile reduction on Cloaks (I wonder why it was ever there if CCP wanted scouts to be invisible OR unscannable) and that's it mostly. Maybe change the scanrange bonus on the gal scout to something else. Also IMHO the overpopulation of scouts is a myth. Sure there are more scouts but there are even more heavies out there and even lots of assaults and logis. Just because a scout kills you (btw still the best way to earn WP as scout ) it does not mean there are huge problems with them... There is a strong feeling that brick tanked scouts should go funny enough that this is only true for armor tanked scouts a scout with 500 Hp (or more) in shields with 50 Hp/s regen seems ok . IMHO even brick tanked scouts are ok they are easy targets. and they are not faster with more Hp than their assault counterparts...plus you have to consider that CCP never rebalanced assault suits to match the current balance pass...
MINA Longstrike 818	Posted - 2014.06.03 10:23:00 - [17] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: JP Acuna wrote: I'd be ok with this, but the Shotgun should remain a light weapon. This would mean: 1.- The scout playstyle will be for scouting, eWar, squad intel, etc... as it always should have been. 2.- The Shotgun becomes a viable weapon for assaults and commandos (this way being more balanced. It would also make sense then to fit profile dampeners and kincats in medium suits instead of tanking modules, more variety). 3.- Assault suits are interesting again. I love my scout, but i've been thinking a lot about this. I'd be happy doing scouty stuff instead of slaying people and denying the assault role completely. +1 Its juts scouts CAN'T scout CCP removed the ability to actually scout from scouts. Well maybe apart the glitched Cal scout ut this seems to be a bug. As CCP removed shared Team view they also removed the ability to scout for your team/squad. Also scanners are more useful for scouting than scouts more range and more precision especially on the gal logi. To make things worse using a scanner rewards you with WP passive scouting don't. How are scouts supposed to gain WP? Honestly what needs to go is the scanprofile reduction on Cloaks (I wonder why it was ever there if CCP wanted scouts to be invisible OR unscannable) and that's it mostly. Maybe change the scanrange bonus on the gal scout to something else. Also IMHO the overpopulation of scouts is a myth. Sure there are more scouts but there are even more heavies out there and even lots of assaults and logis. Just because a scout kills you (btw still the best way to earn WP as scout ) it does not mean there are huge problems with them... There is a strong feeling that brick tanked scouts should go funny enough that this is only true for armor tanked scouts a scout with 500 Hp (or more) in shields with 50 Hp/s regen seems ok . IMHO even brick tanked scouts are ok they are easy targets. and they are not faster with more Hp than their assault counterparts...plus you have to consider that CCP never rebalanced assault suits to match the current balance pass... Overpopulation of scouts is not a myth, I have had plenty of games in the last few weeks where I have ran into teams where 8+ people were using scout suits with shotguns or assault combat rifles and remote explosives. It is so insanely easy it isn't even funny, it's near impossible to deal with because it's very easy to lose track of one scout (and they'll always have the choice of when to re-engage you because EWAR is ***ing awful for non-light suits) or while you're attempted to deal with one another runs up and shoots you in the back. The cloak is not a defensive tool this can be demonstrated brilliantly here and here. It is infact a very, very powerful offensive tool which other suits have limited to NO* ability to deal with and when combined with the fact that scouts can grab HP totals compareable to the best that medium frames have to offer while being faster and stealthier and still having their choice of equipment the problem is exacerbated. Have you tried playing solo in a skirmish or domination match while 5+ scouts are running around? You are useless unless you yourself are also a scout (preferably a gallente or caldari scout). Scouts are broken, largely because EWAR is broken and the playerbase of dust loves doing things that are oriented towards outright destroying the experience for other players. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Assassin Khul Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2014.06.03 11:13:00 - [18] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: I'd be ok with this, but the Shotgun should remain a light weapon. This would mean: 1.- The scout playstyle will be for scouting, eWar, squad intel, etc... as it always should have been. 2.- The Shotgun becomes a viable weapon for assaults and commandos (this way being more balanced. It would also make sense then to fit profile dampeners and kincats in medium suits instead of tanking modules, more variety). 3.- Assault suits are interesting again. I love my scout, but i've been thinking a lot about this. I'd be happy doing scouty stuff instead of slaying people and denying the assault role completely. +1 No heavies with shotgun. Hate Caldari,Heavies and tanks,with dropships.Love speed kills and Deaths.If I see a heavy I will knife it
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 965	Posted - 2014.06.03 11:19:00 - [19] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: JP Acuna wrote: I'd be ok with this, but the Shotgun should remain a light weapon. This would mean: 1.- The scout playstyle will be for scouting, eWar, squad intel, etc... as it always should have been. 2.- The Shotgun becomes a viable weapon for assaults and commandos (this way being more balanced. It would also make sense then to fit profile dampeners and kincats in medium suits instead of tanking modules, more variety). 3.- Assault suits are interesting again. I love my scout, but i've been thinking a lot about this. I'd be happy doing scouty stuff instead of slaying people and denying the assault role completely. +1 Its juts scouts CAN'T scout CCP removed the ability to actually scout from scouts. Well maybe apart the glitched Cal scout ut this seems to be a bug. As CCP removed shared Team view they also removed the ability to scout for your team/squad. Also scanners are more useful for scouting than scouts more range and more precision especially on the gal logi. To make things worse using a scanner rewards you with WP passive scouting don't. How are scouts supposed to gain WP? Honestly what needs to go is the scanprofile reduction on Cloaks (I wonder why it was ever there if CCP wanted scouts to be invisible OR unscannable) and that's it mostly. Maybe change the scanrange bonus on the gal scout to something else. Also IMHO the overpopulation of scouts is a myth. Sure there are more scouts but there are even more heavies out there and even lots of assaults and logis. Just because a scout kills you (btw still the best way to earn WP as scout ) it does not mean there are huge problems with them... There is a strong feeling that brick tanked scouts should go funny enough that this is only true for armor tanked scouts a scout with 500 Hp (or more) in shields with 50 Hp/s regen seems ok . IMHO even brick tanked scouts are ok they are easy targets. and they are not faster with more Hp than their assault counterparts...plus you have to consider that CCP never rebalanced assault suits to match the current balance pass... Overpopulation of scouts is not a myth, I have had plenty of games in the last few weeks where I have ran into teams where 8+ people were using scout suits with shotguns or assault combat rifles and remote explosives. It is so insanely easy it isn't even funny, it's near impossible to deal with because it's very easy to lose track of one scout (and they'll always have the choice of when to re-engage you because EWAR is ***ing awful for non-light suits) or while you're attempted to deal with one another runs up and shoots you in the back. The cloak is not a defensive tool this can be demonstrated brilliantly here and here. It is infact a very, very powerful offensive tool which other suits have limited to NO* ability to deal with and when combined with the fact that scouts can grab HP totals compareable to the best that medium frames have to offer while being faster and stealthier and still having their choice of equipment the problem is exacerbated. As Judge demonstrates in the first mover video you can play like a **ing idiot and still be met with success because cloaking is blatantly overpowered** (those are my words, not his), now imagine what happens when you play like a competent player with a squad of friends doing the same? Have you tried playing solo in a skirmish or domination match while 5+ scouts are running around? You are useless unless you yourself are also a scout (preferably a gallente or caldari scout). Scouts are broken, largely because EWAR is broken, the sheer amount of buffs that scouts got as a whole and because the playerbase of dust loves doing things that are oriented towards outright destroying the experience for other players. Hmm may be I am just lucky to be thrown in matches with 8 + heavies plus logis behind them .
MINA Longstrike 818	Posted - 2014.06.03 11:33:00 - [20] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Hmm may be I am just lucky to be thrown in matches with 8 + heavies plus logis behind them . I've gotten a few of those, and honestly they're preferable to the scout crap - at least you can see who and where to shoot, they're not exactly hiding from you. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1310	Posted - 2014.06.03 12:03:00 - [21] - Quote You guys are beating a dead Scout. We're already getting nerf hammered; no further action needed. Hotfix Alpha will unbunch lots of panties (ours included). Scouts don't want to be FoTM; we want balance. Which begs the question, what do Tankers want? Harpyja? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1814	Posted - 2014.06.03 13:35:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You guys are beating a dead Scout. We're already getting nerf hammered; no further action needed. Hotfix Alpha will unbunch lots of panties (ours included). Scouts don't want to be FoTM; we want balance. Which begs the question, what do Tankers want? Harpyja? I do not speak on behalf of every tanker. I also want balance. First of all, I want SP investment to be meaningful and to require SP investment to be able to make an OK-decent fit. Someone with 0 SP shouldn't be able to destroy any tank out there just as quickly as someone with 10+ million SP. It has now become "whoever has more damage from their railgun and shoots first wins." Second, armor reps need to become active. Passive reps are stupid as they can give a lot more passive tank than a shield tank. Which also brings up triple rep Maddies. They get a constant 500 hp/s with maxed skills while I only get 168hp/s that is completely unaffected by skills and modules* and interrupted by any AV (even locus grenades stop my regen). I have to pull out when swarms start hitting me while they can sit there and absorb it. Third, large railguns and blasters need damage nerfs. Fourth, damage mods need to revert to a low passive 10% module. And fifth, there needs to be a proper tier system. A MLT/STD module should not be as effective as a PRO module (which goes back to #1 asking for SP investment to be worthwhile and required for better fits) Also, swarms need higher speed. *A lot of our modules were taken away in 1.7 for the first balance pass, and it seems like we won't get them back for a long time, if ever. Right now I can only fit ammo units in my lows because those are the only meaningful things I can fit. While armor vehicles get to choose from scanners, fuel injectors, damage mods, and mCRUs. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1311	Posted - 2014.06.03 14:52:00 - [23] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I do not speak on behalf of every tanker. I also want balance. You want balance!? Clearly, you do not speak on behalf of most tankers :-) Seriously though, Scouts are in for a big hit. We very well may end up broken. Again. Regardless, the FoTM crowd will soon be scrambling for a new suit. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2222	Posted - 2014.06.03 16:16:00 - [24] - Quote Harpyja wrote: If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms I'm a firm believer in diplomacy and conversation, so if you'd care to elaborate more deeply on why your idea promotes actual game balance please do so and I'll be happen to listen. That being said I have a general request of both the OP and the rest of the forums; Can we stop all of the "sidearm only will fix it" talk? It's not an effective idea for Logi, it's not an effective idea for scouts, and while yes it would be more viable if you indeed pushed the Shotty into the sidearm slot that's not only very limiting to possible light frame builds but it's also going to make assault suits into a LW + Shotgun and if we're really going to have them overlap that way with the commando let's just do it outright not through the back door. Adipem Nothi wrote: Sure! But while you're at it, also limit: * Tanks to Rail Turrets * Dropships to Transport * HMGs to 10 meters * Logis to Reppers This way, Scouts won't be alone when they walk out on Dust. Effective, well except maybe for the first point, because that's pretty much where HAVs are already if we're addressing the PC meta Still, point well made. Adipem Nothi wrote: I like Rattati's current approach a 'bit more than yours. Scouts are getting nerfed plenty enough as is. Is it not yet time to sht on other classes? I agree about Rattati's work and further it'd be great if the cycle of "nerf the front runner" were exchanged for some role focus, wouldn't it? /at thread:* We have hotfix Alpha deploying in a matter of hours let's give that a couple of weeks to see what effects it has and then come back to the table. Will more balance be needed somewhere in the game after Alpha? Of course. But we can more effectively provide that feedback after we see where things stand post deployment. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3187	Posted - 2014.06.03 16:20:00 - [25] - Quote lol about making the shotgun a heavy weapon. Ok go ahead and use a shotgun on a heavy suit and tell me how it is working out for ya. The last time i saw heavys with shotguns they went something like 1-15.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1322	Posted - 2014.06.03 16:29:00 - [26] - Quote Cross Atu for CPM! Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13963	Posted - 2014.06.03 18:16:00 - [27] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You guys are beating a dead Scout. We're already getting nerf hammered; no further action needed. The 'nerfhammer' really isn't that bad... But this sidearm crap? What the hell. We had all this bitching about the logis and I'd hoped that everyone had realised how bloody awful the idea was by now. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Scheneighnay McBob T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 5142	Posted - 2014.06.03 21:20:00 - [28] - Quote Possibly on a future, e-war oriented T2 or T3 child of the scout, but not on scouts. péñpâ¦pé+pâìpââpâêpü«tÄïµºÿpüïpéÅpüäpüä

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2069	Posted - 2014.06.04 05:09:00 - [29] - Quote I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Toby Flenderson research lab 542	Posted - 2014.06.04 05:19:00 - [30] - Quote This wouldn't even affect me. I have 3/4 of the scout suits and not one of my scout fittings use a primary. You don't need primary weapons to do well with a scout.

Grimmiers 574	Posted - 2014.06.04 05:55:00 - [31] - Quote I made a post about how firing weapons would increase your profile based on what type of weapon it is. Scouts that want to keep a low profile while causing mayhem would want to use their sidearm over light weapons.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 861	Posted - 2014.06.04 07:08:00 - [32] - Quote Are totally forgetting about the Specialist line of weapons, with lower fitting costs but correspondingly worse performance in some aspects? Just change the code to 'scouts can use all sidearms and all weapons that have the 'Specialist' label' to allow them to broaden their choice without unnecessary nerfs. Dust/Eve transfers
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2232	Posted - 2014.06.04 08:02:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles What is exactly a support weapon? Is there a nanite injector gun in project? BTW, i don't think that decrease logi offensive power is a good choice, i would increase assault offensive power. Afterall that bonus on ROF was not that bad, probably a 2% per level would be good. PSN: ogamega Never f* with a Galdari.
Vitoka79 from SVK ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 88	Posted - 2014.06.04 08:16:00 - [34] - Quote Harpyja wrote: castba wrote: Tankers giving suggestions to balance infantry. This can only make the game better! I'm not just a tanker. Yes I'm only specialized into vehicles on this character, but I also have an alt specialized into Amarr assault, on which I've been spending the majority of my time as I cannot stand the vehicle imbalances anymore. My opinion on infantry balance is valid. Your opinion is crap.You ever sove that picture where the Gal scout is holding the sniper rifle?Sidearm my ass. I don't need a pilot suit.I made my own without skill bonuses :( Crashing dropships since september 2012...
voidfaction Void of Faction 253	Posted - 2014.06.04 08:48:00 - [35] - Quote Harpyja wrote: If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms I have not found a FPS yet that does not have a sniper rifle for a scout or some type of scoped precision rifle. Take away my full auto rifle fine. Not my sniper rifle or tac-ar.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 966	Posted - 2014.06.04 10:04:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. This is indeed a direction I really like +1
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 238	Posted - 2014.06.04 15:08:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. ummmm....be careful about what you do with logis it is very easy to turn them into the best class in the game where no other class stands a chance at all against them. We even had that happening for a while during the age of the Slayer Logi. Logis have lots of spare CPU/PG to be able to spend as they see fit, such as how they have started using the cloaks as well even with the huge cost on the cloak.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 330	Posted - 2014.06.04 16:26:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. What if you just gave a speed penalty for heavy weapons, then gave heavy suits a role bonus that negated it. Or you could have a higher fitting cost for heavy weapons and give heavy suits a role bonus to reduce it. Result: Sure you can have a scout with a HMG, however it's all gank with no tank and is slower than a scout using a smaller weapon.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 9118	Posted - 2014.06.04 17:00:00 - [39] - Quote Harpyja wrote: If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms Or, you could address the problems causing the Scouts to outperform other suits as opposed to making a change that is not only unnecessary, but an awful idea for reasons stated in the last time a "sidearm only" nerf was suggested. Lets look at all of the problems that would be addressed: Scouts w/Combat Rifles Now lets look at all the unnecessary playstyles that would be removed here: Scout w/Plasma Cannon Scout w/Mass Driver Scout w/Sniper Rifle Scout w/Plasma Rifle Scout w/Laser Rifle Scout w/[Insert anything other than Combat Rifle here] Moving the shotgun would pretty much equate to every Medium Frame and their mothers, brothers, grandmothers, and next door neighbors carrying Shotguns in their Sidearm slot. This is bad because it would give suits capable of moving over 7m/s incredible ganking power with no actual sacrifice. (Just picture a Six Kin ACR with a CreoDron SG at 7.5m/s and 500HP of shields). The real problems with Light/Scout Frames: Possible eHP ceiling is too high No firing delay on clacks Lack of incentive to use Assault Frames Now tell me, which problem(s) would be addressed by revoking their Light Weapon Slot? HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Need HeLP in PC? Contact Me In-Game :D -HAND
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1991	Posted - 2014.06.04 19:01:00 - [40] - Quote Atiim wrote: The real problems with Light/Scout Frames: Possible eHP ceiling is too high No firing delay on clacks Lack of incentive to use Assault Frames Now tell me, which problem(s) would be addressed by revoking their Light Weapon Slot? Here we go. ^ Solid. As a sidearm scout the change doesn't really effect me but sidearm only scout has always been a hideous idea. It takes so many scout play styles off the table and doesn't address any of the core issues. It would definitely limit the number of scouts on the field, and take many scouts out of the game most likely... (and moving the Shotty to a sidearm is also a dumb idea, for the many reasons mentioned above). Nothing should really even be discussed or considered until a few weeks after alpha. looks away from OP "NEXT!" Double posting like a Kaiser.

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1459	Posted - 2014.06.04 20:03:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. This would have a pretty negative impact on the Amarr logi. Currently it in the only logi really geared for attacking as it has a side arm slot. Would it get a smaller penalty to using rifles than the other logis. 10% perhaps? Fun > Realism
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1822	Posted - 2014.06.04 22:56:00 - [42] - Quote Atiim wrote: Harpyja wrote: If Scouts are outperforming other suits, how about limiting them to sidearms only (and making the shotgun a sidearm)? It'd make sense: Heavies - heavy weapons Mediums - light weapons Lights (or just Scouts) - sidearms Or, you could address the problems causing the Scouts to outperform other suits as opposed to making a change that is not only unnecessary, but an awful idea for reasons stated in the last time a "sidearm only" nerf was suggested. Lets look at all of the problems that would be addressed: Scouts w/Combat Rifles Now lets look at all the unnecessary playstyles that would be removed here: Scout w/Plasma Cannon Scout w/Mass Driver Scout w/Sniper Rifle Scout w/Plasma Rifle Scout w/Laser Rifle Scout w/[Insert anything other than Combat Rifle here] Moving the shotgun would pretty much equate to every Medium Frame and their mothers, brothers, grandmothers, and next door neighbors carrying Shotguns in their Sidearm slot. This is bad because it would give suits capable of moving over 7m/s incredible ganking power with no actual sacrifice. (Just picture a Six Kin ACR with a CreoDron SG at 7.5m/s and 500HP of shields). The real problems with Light/Scout Frames: Possible eHP ceiling is too high No firing delay on clacks Lack of incentive to use Assault Frames Now tell me, which problem(s) would be addressed by revoking their Light Weapon Slot? Everything you said is true. When I first made the thread my only thought was "Scouts with combat rifles." So... yeah, I had close to no thought of anything else when I made the OP "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3197	Posted - 2014.06.04 23:23:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. If thats the case i want to be aible to wield a forgegun on my scout suit. I would even do that with a 30% fitting penalty.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 730	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:19:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: ... The real problems with Light/Scout Frames: Possible eHP ceiling is too high No firing delay on clacks Lack of incentive to use Assault Frames ... Have you or anyone else looked at this solution? MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3011	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:25:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. Lead with a carrot and not a stick. Global penalties are a bad thing because it means you have to code and verify the penalty works for every dropsuit and weapon combo. Suit specific bonuses are a good thing, it works only on the suits you intend it to. If you really want to do this, you need to do like you did with equipment and nerf the base stats while providing bonuses to the suits you wish to pair these with.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 9124	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:53:00 - [46] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Have you or anyone else looked at this solution? After reading this over, it seems like a very promising solution. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Need HeLP in PC? Contact Me In-Game :D -HAND
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 732	Posted - 2014.06.05 00:58:00 - [47] - Quote shaman oga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles What is exactly a support weapon? Is there a nanite injector gun in project? BTW, i don't think that decrease logi offensive power is a good choice, i would increase assault offensive power. Afterall that bonus on ROF was not that bad, probably a 2% per level would be good. A RoF bonus would only help out the AR, and the RR, and the assault SCR. It wouldn't do anything for the regular SCR and it would hurt the assault CR. A better bonus would be Aero Yassavi & KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Assault bonus: 2% increase in all light/sidearm weapon damage per level. Amarr: 5% reduction of heat buildup on laser weaponry per level (functionally equivalent to magazine increase) Minmatar: 5% increase magazine size of projectile weaponry per level. Gallente: 5% increase in hybrid-blaster weaponry magazine size per level. Caldari: 5% increase in hybrid-rail weaponry magazine size per level. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 9125	Posted - 2014.06.05 01:29:00 - [48] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Everything you said is true. When I first made the thread my only thought was "Scouts with combat rifles." So... yeah, I had close to no thought of anything else when I made the OP Don't put yourself down. As you of all people know, I've been guilty of similar things in the past. But at least you recognize that there is a problem, and at least attempted to form a solution to it. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Need HeLP in PC? Contact Me In-Game :D -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 9125	Posted - 2014.06.05 01:36:00 - [49] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: A better bonus would be Aero Yassavi & KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Assault bonus: 2% increase in all light/sidearm weapon damage per level. Amarr: 5% reduction of heat buildup on laser weaponry per level (functionally equivalent to magazine increase) Minmatar: 5% increase magazine size of projectile weaponry per level. Gallente: 5% increase in hybrid-blaster weaponry magazine size per level. Caldari: 5% increase in hybrid-rail weaponry magazine size per level. This wouldn't be a better bonus, as the Commandos already have the same damage bonus (albiet 3%). HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Need HeLP in PC? Contact Me In-Game :D -HAND
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 230	Posted - 2014.06.05 02:44:00 - [50] - Quote shaman oga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles What is exactly a support weapon? Is there a nanite injector gun in project? BTW, i don't think that decrease logi offensive power is a good choice, i would increase assault offensive power. Afterall that bonus on ROF was not that bad, probably a 2% per level would be good. The nanohive canon? The rep tool rifle? Seriously, buffing Assaults' offensively capabilities is a much better idea than nerfing Logis' defensively capabilities. We deserve the right to protect ourselves. I've tried real hard to use advanced and proto SMGs but I'm getting really tied of getting cut down from TWICE my range by Rail Rifles, etc. My Logi-Bro outfit is too expensive for that crap. Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 230	Posted - 2014.06.05 02:49:00 - [51] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think the inherent strength of DUST 514 is the fitting freedom and I don't like hardcoding these choices. However, because it is hard to create weapons for classes like the Assault, without making them equally good for Scouts or Commandos. In fact, I have been advocating that we allow almost all choices across weapons and roles, but with limitations and penalties. Maybe not the extremes of HMG wielding Scouts, but a 25% fitting penalty across roles, or something like that. Sure, the sentinel can use the CR but it's made for smaller frames and it's not optimized for the bulky heavy. Same could go for a lot of things, for example Rifles in the hands of Logis, they should excel at support weapons but maybe not rifles and then incur a penalty. You can fit them, but your choice will be at the expense of your Logi efficiency and that may cause you to think it over, and just use the Assault for assaulting. These are still just my thoughts on the topic, and we are not doing any of this imminently. I really like the idea of weapon/role/race optimal fits, but please be careful regarding nerfing Logi's ability for self defense. Most of us only have one weapon slot to begin with... And our suits are expensive. Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
Random1628 Random Gunz 0	Posted - 2014.06.05 04:39:00 - [52] - Quote Why not create a medium weapon slot that the medium, assault, and logistic frames can have while the scouts keep their light weapon slot. The medium weapons would at least consist of the four assault rifles, that should at least fix the scout abilities to out perform the assaults offensive capabilities.
voidfaction Void of Faction 265	Posted - 2014.06.05 05:52:00 - [53] - Quote Random1628 wrote: Why not create a medium weapon slot that the medium, assault, and logistic frames can have while the scouts keep their light weapon slot. The medium weapons would at least consist of the four assault rifles, that should at least fix the scout abilities to out perform the assaults offensive capabilities. Why not create a big hole and drop you in it if you want to take away my tac-ar with my scout. You play a eWAR scout with the tac-ar and tell me it is over powered or does not just feel right as a scout. only thing it needs is a better head shot bonus or gal scout bonus to kick when aiming down sites. Give my Caldari scout a head shot bonus for sniper rifles and I would have no need for one of the 4 rifles. Give the Minmatar scout more dampening so they can use there NK's The Amarr scout don't need a weapon they only need to kneel and pray as they get executed thinking there god will save them.


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