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TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:09:00 - [1] - Quote How many people have been shot in the back or side from a Shotgun? This requires no skill from the player only a cloak. What about the Scout with 600 Armor pts? I see it all the time. not every game, but plenty. Or the skill required to drive an LAV around, find a solo player, jump out in your heavy suit and kill them with your heavy weapon. Wow what skill!! I saw the same thing recently from a tanker - he was in a tank , but instead of killing me with the tanks weapon, a solo infantry guy, he got out of the tank and killed me with his proto weapon. What does this prove? I had a AA Fitting on, so had only a side arm against a proto light weapon. Who thinks this is a fair fight? I don't have a proto - AA weapon. A sinlg AA player vs a tank is silly - I was just trying to get a few points in a completely lopsided game - The team I was on lost over 120 clones to I think about 20. Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. -- These are now the Stereotypes on Dust. Throw in sniper with a Proto weapon and a Commando Suit and it's complete. These account for like 75% of my deaths. -- You, CCP, need to figure out a way to restore some balance to the game. 2/3 of games are still lopsided. only about 1/3 of the time do I get a game that has equally balanced teams. most of the time the game is hopelessly lopsided. I play on both sides. Winning and Losing lopsided games - it's not fun. You need to figure out a way to balance some of the stereotypes of the game. Maybe set a Maximum Shield or Armor level on Light Dropsuits - cut the cloak time in half (i don't know do flux grenades kill the cloak?) Maybe require a 2-3 second startup time for vehicles. So a player gets out of the vehicle, kills someone, gets back in, but the vehicle won't move for 2-3 seconds, a warm up time, say. Maybe allowing an AA enabled player to hit them from a distance. I don't know. Just venting. I'm sure I'm going to get hate replies from folks of each of these stereotypes. maybe some other folks. Again my counter argument - you need to make it possible for newbies to step in and in 2-3-4 games to be able to successfully kill at least some other players. Right now newbies play a games or two - die 10-12 times and move on to another game.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 3141	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:14:00 - [2] - Quote I like having an HMG inside my rail tank xD ak.0 // 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak // I speak for the trees. Jason Person for CMP!
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1803	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:15:00 - [3] - Quote I tried brick-tanking a cloaked shotgun scout. I died a lot. Guess these dudes got more skill than me. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Eruditus 920 Prodigy Ops 73	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:16:00 - [4] - Quote OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee
DozersMouse XIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:16:00 - [5] - Quote you need a squad Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9994	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:16:00 - [6] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I like having an HMG inside my rail tank xD I like having a Cloaked Bricktanked Scout Shotgunner in mine! "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:16:00 - [7] - Quote I read the first sentence and laughed, if someone with a cloak is able to sneak up behind you and shotgun you in the back... Hmmm, yea, thats sort of the point. He wouldn't have needed the cloak to do so. You say its poor gameplay, but in fact its pure skill to sneak up behind someone and kill them. It takes strategy, positioning, awareness, anticipation, and of course map knowledge to do so. You sir, by getting killed from behind demonstrate the lack of skill and awareness and then poor sportsmanship by complaining about it. You seem to criticize the cloak for aiding him, but for a cloak to matter you would have had to had a chance to view him, and in the case where a scout sneaks up behind you.. Well you sir would not have seen him and therefore its a skillful play. Cloaks have serious problem, but you fail to make a valid point about their use in this case. Not even gonna bother criticizing the rest, but the goal of a scout should be the attacking from behind. If you can't understand that, i don't see how addressing the other issues matters.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 520	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:19:00 - [8] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. Pity that as a newbie you won't have the SP to equip those counters until you grind for 6 months.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn 2375	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:19:00 - [9] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: I tried brick-tanking a cloaked shotgun scout. I died a lot. Guess these dudes got more skill than me. Doing it wrong: brick tanked scouts and shotgun are an easy kill, unless they got you from behind. The real bad thing are Gallente Brick tanked Gal scouts with a complex dampener, cloak and a Combat Rifle. -#Firmocosìperchènonhopersonalità
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4133	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:21:00 - [10] - Quote But there are newbies who step in who takes a licking and keep on fighting. They don't say "oh, the guy shot me in the back and that takes no skill". You didn't watch your six, so that's lacking in your skill. War isn't about a "fair fight" and gentlemen's rules. Especially in New Eden. You have to be cunning, ruthless, and aware. We are mercenaries. Fairness and mercenaries don't go together. So you might take this wrong way but you shouldn't...in this case you should really HTFU. War is never pretty. There are no referees in battle. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?

Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 110	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:21:00 - [11] - Quote I was actually musing, just the other day: what if there were an animation that takes place when exiting (and entering) a vehicle? For an HAV, for example, a hatch would open, and the merc would be climb out, rather than instantly appearing next to the vehicle, like they do now. The heavier the suit worn, the more cumbersome, and the longer it would take to climb out. Of course, the player would be vulnerable and unable to defend themselves until completely free from the vehicle. Ever watch a really fat guy trying to get into/out of a small car? Something like that. Just something I was thinking about.
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1988	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:22:00 - [12] - Quote OP, everything you mentioned can be easily countered.
Tek Hound Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 263	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:25:00 - [13] - Quote Next gen QQer Skill > majority of dust community
Eruditus 920 Prodigy Ops 74	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:25:00 - [14] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Eruditus 920 wrote: OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. Pity that as a newbie you won't have the SP to equip those counters until you grind for 6 months. I am a newbie. "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee
Vin Vicious Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 589	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:29:00 - [15] - Quote Scouts with cloaks and shottys Scouts with cloaks and CR Amarr heavies Gal heavies Ads Tanks If you aren't in any of these categories biomass yourself This will not get fixed anytime soon so do yourself a favor and leave like the thousands that have already Also be ready for a bunch of trolls and people that use it try and convince you that it's a balance mechanic
negative49er Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 567	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:33:00 - [16] - Quote I hate that people are using the shotgun now I been shotgunning back at when uprising came out and there were a few shotgunner back then, but now they are made me hate my favorite weapon Dedicated Shotgun Scout and professional backstabber
Vin Vicious Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 589	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:33:00 - [17] - Quote Cotsy wrote: I read the first sentence and laughed, if someone with a cloak is able to sneak up behind you and shotgun you in the back... Hmmm, yea, thats sort of the point. He wouldn't have needed the cloak to do so. You say its poor gameplay, but in fact its pure skill to sneak up behind someone and kill them. It takes strategy, positioning, awareness, anticipation, and of course map knowledge to do so. You sir, by getting killed from behind demonstrate the lack of skill and awareness and then poor sportsmanship by complaining about it. You seem to criticize the cloak for aiding him, but for a cloak to matter you would have had to had a chance to view him, and in the case where a scout sneaks up behind you.. Well you sir would not have seen him and therefore its a skillful play. Cloaks have serious problem, but you fail to make a valid point about their use in this case. Not even gonna bother criticizing the rest, but the goal of a scout should be the attacking from behind. If you can't understand that, i don't see how addressing the other issues matters. P.s this is possibly the dumbest defense of cloak shottys I've ever seen
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2666	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:39:00 - [18] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: Eruditus 920 wrote: OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. Pity that as a newbie you won't have the SP to equip those counters until you grind for 6 months. I am a newbie. Alright. Newbie, how do you deal with Triple-repped Madrugars, LAV-Heavies, Redline Snipers? If the counter is the same thing as the thing you are attempting to counter, it doesn't count. Also, if your counter requires more than 1 person, it doesn't count. Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet Gallente Neutron Rifle
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2461	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:39:00 - [19] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: you need a squad No, he doesn't. I do fairly well solo. He needs to figure out how to choose his fights. If you see certain corps stacked on the opposite team, leave. If you're not having fun, leave. Joined a late match on the losing side? Leave. It's not that hard. I do it all the time.
Sollemnis Aelinos 0uter.Heaven Academy 173	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:40:00 - [20] - Quote Vin Vicious wrote: Scouts with cloaks and shottys Scouts with cloaks and CR Amarr heavies Gal heavies Ads Tanks If you aren't in any of these categories biomass yourself This will not get fixed anytime soon so do yourself a favor and leave like the thousands that have already Also be ready for a bunch of trolls and people that use it try and convince you that it's a balance mechanic loool im a nova knife scout and hv no issues Think about the reason you are born look inwars to learn the truth You'er born to develop your soul

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5241	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:42:00 - [21] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: How many people have been shot in the back or side from a Shotgun? This requires no skill from the player only a cloak. Yep. It's definitely the cloak that does it. That's why most of my kills with a NON-cloaked Scout are with a Shotgun from behind or to the side of my opponent. Quote: What about the Scout with 600 Armor pts? I see it all the time. not every game, but plenty. Because even though Miltia Assault suits can easily break 800 eHP, Proto Scouts with similar are totally OP, right? (to be fair, Assault suits are currently UNDERPOWERED, which makes everything else look OP when you're running one) Quote: Or the skill required to drive an LAV around, find a solo player, jump out in your heavy suit and kill them with your heavy weapon. Wow what skill!! Try it. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to be effective like that. Once you have it down, you can make it look easy, especially against new players who don't know what they're doing, but it's NOT as easy as it looks. Quote: I saw the same thing recently from a tanker - he was in a tank , but instead of killing me with the tanks weapon, a solo infantry guy, he got out of the tank and killed me with his proto weapon. You're right. He definitely should have stayed in his tank where he was less vulnerable and wasted a lot of his slow-reloading anti-tank weaponry hoping for a lucky hit on you instead of hopping out and risking you getting in a lucky hit and killing him then stealing his tank. What ever was he thinking? Playing to WIN! The nerve of that guy! Quote: What does this prove? I had a AA Fitting on, so had only a side arm against a proto light weapon. Who thinks this is a fair fight? I don't have a proto - AA weapon. A sinlg AA player vs a tank is silly - I was just trying to get a few points in a completely lopsided game - The team I was on lost over 120 clones to I think about 20. So you're saying that you got protostomped, and that somehow proves the players using viable and effective tactics were succeeding because of a LACK of skill? Cool story.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5241	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:43:00 - [22] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. -Tries calling people out for using no-skill weapons. -Claims the Combat Rifle isn't one. LOL. Quote: You, CCP, need to figure out a way to restore some balance to the game. 2/3 of games are still lopsided. only about 1/3 of the time do I get a game that has equally balanced teams. most of the time the game is hopelessly lopsided. I play on both sides. Winning and Losing lopsided games - it's not fun. Balance in the game isn't anywhere near as much of a problem as you're claiming. Your "evidence" proves that MATCHMAKING has issues, and tells us absolutely NOTHING about balance. You haven't mentioned ANYTHING relevant to what you're CLAIMING is a problem, except your subjective experience with the Rail Rifle performing better in your hands the the Combat Rifle. And all that proves is that you, personally, are better with the Rail Rifle. I can probably find a half-dozen threads where people have done the same test and had the exact opposite results. Those don't prove anything either. They prove that both Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle are good weapons in the right hands. Quote: Maybe set a Maximum Shield or Armor level on Light Dropsuits - cut the cloak time in half (i don't know do flux grenades kill the cloak?) Maybe require a 2-3 second startup time for vehicles. So a player gets out of the vehicle, kills someone, gets back in, but the vehicle won't move for 2-3 seconds, a warm up time, say. Maybe allowing an AA enabled player to hit them from a distance. Or maybe - just maybe - you need more practice because you're currently not very good at the game. When I look at the kill feed, I see more Combat Rifles in most matches than Rail Rifles. If you do better with the Rail Rifle, use it and help tip the balance a little in its favour. It could use more popularity. Quote: Again my counter argument - you need to make it possible for newbies to step in and in 2-3-4 games to be able to successfully kill at least some other players. Right now newbies play a games or two - die 10-12 times and move on to another game. Shion Typhon wrote: Pity that as a newbie you won't have the SP to equip those counters until you grind for 6 months. And replying to BOTH of the above claims, I have a relatively untouched alt with only around 1 million SP, most of which I haven't even assigned to anything. I modified the Assault - Anti Armour [Starter Fit] loadout by replacing its sidearm with a Standard SMG, upgrading to Standard Shield Extender and Nanohive, and adding an Advanced Swarm launcher in place of the Miliita model. I ran around with my SMG out constantly, and went K/D positive with better than 2.0 using only an anti-vehicle fitting. When tanks showed up, I didn't kill any, but I got some vehicle damage WP, and I helped the small AV squad our team had to keep the enemy armour from threatening our team significantly. The best tanker K/D was 5-0 on the enemy team, while several of our infantry slayers were running 14-1 or better. I had 5 kills and 2 deaths. How did I do it? Was I running with a squad? Kind of. It wasn't anyone I knew, and I wasn't on voice comms. I just stayed near a group of teammates who were obviously working together, and provided support. One of my deaths had me picked up by a friendly Logi.
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 1205	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:43:00 - [23] - Quote People will always opt for the easy option. I can't deny the tactics are sound. Not subtle, quite boring, but sound. The problem is the lack of penalty some of these combinations. I hate to say it but a lot of those players are indeed quite bad at this game. The number of times a shotgunner failed to kill on the first shot is quite amazing. Then afterwards rarely win, or if they win its only cus I'm not using a decent weapon / they've tanked out their suit. (Oblivious blueberries don't help ) The game statistics are a big culprit. In a universe of immortal clones where life is expendable KD/R has no logical place. But it exists, its flashed up on screen after every match to mock you. Our leaderboards are ranked by it 1st. So that's their motivation. "The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun" "Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 520	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:47:00 - [24] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: But there are newbies who step in who takes a licking and keep on fighting. They don't say "oh, the guy shot me in the back and that takes no skill". You didn't watch your six, so that's lacking in your skill. War isn't about a "fair fight" and gentlemen's rules. Especially in New Eden. You have to be cunning, ruthless, and aware. We are mercenaries. Fairness and mercenaries don't go together. So you might take this wrong way but you shouldn't...in this case you should really HTFU. War is never pretty. There are no referees in battle. Oooooh, you're such an e-badass, I bet your name in real life is John Connor. When the machine Uprising comes you can lead the human race to victory based on your mad warfare skills developed by playing Dust and reading the Art of War (Readers Digest, Abridged version), twice.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2461	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:48:00 - [25] - Quote Vin Vicious wrote: Cotsy wrote: I read the first sentence and laughed, if someone with a cloak is able to sneak up behind you and shotgun you in the back... Hmmm, yea, thats sort of the point. He wouldn't have needed the cloak to do so. You say its poor gameplay, but in fact its pure skill to sneak up behind someone and kill them. It takes strategy, positioning, awareness, anticipation, and of course map knowledge to do so. You sir, by getting killed from behind demonstrate the lack of skill and awareness and then poor sportsmanship by complaining about it. You seem to criticize the cloak for aiding him, but for a cloak to matter you would have had to had a chance to view him, and in the case where a scout sneaks up behind you.. Well you sir would not have seen him and therefore its a skillful play. Cloaks have serious problem, but you fail to make a valid point about their use in this case. Not even gonna bother criticizing the rest, but the goal of a scout should be the attacking from behind. If you can't understand that, i don't see how addressing the other issues matters. P.s this is possibly the dumbest defense of cloak shottys I've ever seen He does have a point, though. Assuming he's using a medium frame, he would not have seen a scout running behind him on his radar, nor would he on his frontal view (obviously). This enables the scouts to place a shot or two behind their target. What the cloak does, is give a broken amount of dampning to your dB so you can hide from scanners fairly easily. As for hiding from your eyes, well, that's a different story. I'll say that the medium was moving for example's sake. If the Scout was moving IN FRONT of the medium, there might've been a chance of the medium spotting him, but losing track if the Scout goes behind an object, rendering him out of sight. The medium would not know where the Scout would come out of next. Now, if the Scout was standing still, chances are very slim that the medium would spot him. You need to be very focused and have a good enough television to notice the difference between the background and the invisibility shroud. Point is, if the Scout stayed out of sight and shot him in the back, that meant he knew how to get there and how to avoid detection with or without cloak.
Tek Hound Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 264	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:50:00 - [26] - Quote Vin Vicious wrote: Scouts with cloaks and shottys Scouts with cloaks and CR Amarr heavies Gal heavies Ads Tanks If you aren't in any of these categories biomass yourself This will not get fixed anytime soon so do yourself a favor and leave like the thousands that have already Also be ready for a bunch of trolls and people that use it try and convince you that it's a balance mechanic Only true for scrubs Skill > majority of dust community
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9995	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:51:00 - [27] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Michael Arck wrote: But there are newbies who step in who takes a licking and keep on fighting. They don't say "oh, the guy shot me in the back and that takes no skill". You didn't watch your six, so that's lacking in your skill. War isn't about a "fair fight" and gentlemen's rules. Especially in New Eden. You have to be cunning, ruthless, and aware. We are mercenaries. Fairness and mercenaries don't go together. So you might take this wrong way but you shouldn't...in this case you should really HTFU. War is never pretty. There are no referees in battle. Oooooh, you're such an e-badass, I bet your name in real life is John Connor. When the machine Uprising comes you can lead the human race to victory based on your mad warfare skills developed by playing Dust and reading the Art of War (Readers Digest, Abridged version), twice. He just summarised the general theme or original core tenets of Dust....... what does that have to do with John Conner? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2461	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:51:00 - [28] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Bunch of quotes Jesus Christ, dude!
MINA Longstrike 627	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:52:00 - [29] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: I was actually musing, just the other day: what if there were an animation that takes place when exiting (and entering) a vehicle? For an HAV, for example, a hatch would open, and the merc would be climb out, rather than instantly appearing next to the vehicle, like they do now. The heavier the suit worn, the more cumbersome, and the longer it would take to climb out. Of course, the player would be vulnerable and unable to defend themselves until completely free from the vehicle. Ever watch a really fat guy trying to get into/out of a small car? Something like that. Just something I was thinking about. It's been stated multiple times by ccp that they'd like to do it, and even the vehicle community supports it - there's just other far more important things to do / fix, than something that is more of an annoyance than the "OMG GAMEBREAKING PROBLEM" that people make it out to be. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:52:00 - [30] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. Troll

Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1603	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:53:00 - [31] - Quote He was outside of your field of view to begin with, so he didn't even need a cloak. You're honestly just looking for a way to establish your 'but i'm THE BEST! I'm OOBER L337! I CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO DIE!' General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 699	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:53:00 - [32] - Quote whats the cloak matter if they are already behind you? also ive seen plenty of the invisible people while cloaked, not that hard It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Foxbat 071 Inner.Hell 178	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:54:00 - [33] - Quote Honestly, I enjoyed pre-cloak shotgunning more than our current shotgunning. I can't speak for all scouts, but in my opinion stalking players was more fun when it was 100% "skill" based. Not to imply that the cloak is "skill-less", but it is considerably easier to close the gap with a cloak. I find using our new EQ slot for RE/nanohive combos much more fun and useful than using it for a cloak. It works better with my playstyle. I personally don't have a huge issue with cloaks. They could use careful tweaking, but irrational nerfs will do more damage than good. This is something the community in general has still not learned. *BLAP* ( X ) Call For Help ( O ) Respawn
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4134	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:56:00 - [34] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Michael Arck wrote: But there are newbies who step in who takes a licking and keep on fighting. They don't say "oh, the guy shot me in the back and that takes no skill". You didn't watch your six, so that's lacking in your skill. War isn't about a "fair fight" and gentlemen's rules. Especially in New Eden. You have to be cunning, ruthless, and aware. We are mercenaries. Fairness and mercenaries don't go together. So you might take this wrong way but you shouldn't...in this case you should really HTFU. War is never pretty. There are no referees in battle. Oooooh, you're such an e-badass, I bet your name in real life is John Connor. When the machine Uprising comes you can lead the human race to victory based on your mad warfare skills developed by playing Dust and reading the Art of War (Readers Digest, Abridged version), twice. Interesting, I called it before it happened, trying to prevent post like yours happened...but it happened anyway Michael Arck wrote: So you might take this wrong way but you shouldn't... I'm not a bad ass, but I also don't cry when the rain falls either. And I don't call people skill-less because they hopped out of tank to kill me. I expect it that because we are at war. You show me a war that's all about fairness and I'll show you a tap dancing turtle. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Powerh8er Arrogance. Caps and Mercs 415	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:00:00 - [35] - Quote I tea bag every scout that fails to shotgun me down from behind. Thats alot of tea bagging.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 774	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:00:00 - [36] - Quote Sometimes it isn't the game that needs balancing. It's that your skill level is lower than other peoples. I'm not trying to be a **** , but I hear complaints all the time about, gear, lagging, weapon balance, and fits towards the enemy. I confront the enemy and they have tremendous skill. I know some players exploit any advantage they can, but it's not the majority. Some players are badasses. We can pickle that.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3214	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:03:00 - [37] - Quote I got tired of the shotguns so I skilled into scouts myself. Even at advanced I have a lot of fun killing other cloakers, and because each suit only costs 23k I don't care about dying either. I'm kinda sad that my logi is useless with all of these scouts running around, but as long as you squad up with some heavies you actually do pretty well. Diversity is great, I just think that there needs to be another counter to the scout besides just other scouts. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:12:00 - [38] - Quote RemingtonBeaver wrote: Sometimes it isn't the game that needs balancing. It's that your skill level is lower than other peoples. I'm not trying to be a **** , but I hear complaints all the time about, gear, lagging, weapon balance, and fits towards the enemy. I confront the enemy and they have tremendous skill. I know some players exploit any advantage they can, but it's not the majority. Some players are badasses. I don't agree, but thank you. I agree some people are just twitchers or badasses, but we are getting to the point were that's all there in this game. Scouts were arguably overpowered before, now give them a cloak or the ability to push their armor up to Medium or Heavy level and it's moved past overpowered to ridiculous.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4135	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:13:00 - [39] - Quote lol scouts were OP. Since when? Oh the few dedicated scout players before 1.8. Keyword, few. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:20:00 - [40] - Quote Foxbat 071 wrote: Honestly, I enjoyed pre-cloak shotgunning more than our current shotgunning. I can't speak for all scouts, but in my opinion stalking players was more fun when it was 100% "skill" based. Not to imply that the cloak is "skill-less", but it is considerably easier to close the gap with a cloak. I find using our new EQ slot for RE/nanohive combos much more fun and useful than using it for a cloak. It works better with my playstyle. I personally don't have a huge issue with cloaks. They could use careful tweaking, but irrational nerfs will do more damage than good. This is something the community in general has still not learned. I'm not saying irrational or knee-jerk nerfs. It's been months. There is nothing knee jerk about this. I don't know what needs to be done? The only thing I suggested about cloaks was cutting the cloak time in half. How often do you run a Medium DS with an AR and get into the top five in the SP of the match? Who can do this anymore? I'm sure some badasses can, but the above average player? the average player?

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1421	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:23:00 - [41] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. All that really proves is that you are better with the RR. The RR has a much lower RoF a lower DPS and only a slightly better range than the CR leaving the CR as the more powerful weapon in a vast majority of situations. Only in the 95 m plus ranges is the RR the better gun. Glad you finally found a weapon that suits your play style. Fun > Realism
echo47 Minmatar Republic 265	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:32:00 - [42] - Quote I dont really gave a problem with cloaks and shotguns. But several of you state, which is true, a cloak is not needed for a scout to flank and get behind the enemy, If that is the case why is it even in the game. The cloak is just an easy way for scouts to recover from mistakes. There is not a game, the is complex enough to warrant the cloak. It is really just a way to make scouting easier. A gimmick. I would rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.
DozersMouse XIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 560	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:49:00 - [43] - Quote Joel II X wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: you need a squad No, he doesn't. I do fairly well solo. He needs to figure out how to choose his fights. If you see certain corps stacked on the opposite team, leave. If you're not having fun, leave. Joined a late match on the losing side? Leave. It's not that hard. I do it all the time. true you can leave but how will that ever make him a better player? I agree on leaving a battle thats half over and scottie decided you needed to be there if I see a stacked team of good players I go for it playing better players is one of the best ways to make yourself better Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:14:00 - [44] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. All that really proves is that you are better with the RR. The RR has a much lower RoF a lower DPS and only a slightly better range than the CR leaving the CR as the more powerful weapon in a vast majority of situations. Only in the 95 m plus ranges is the RR the better gun. Glad you finally found a weapon that suits your play style. As I neglected to include all of the info I used to compare the two weapons, your surface level analysis might be correct. I do not agree with your analysis though, based on my larger level of info. Thank you for the comment though.
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 1029	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:18:00 - [45] - Quote Just because you never saw them doesn't mean they had a cloak. It's ridiculous how easy it is to sneak up on some one in a scout suit. A lot of it is every other suits **** poor passive scanners, but more of it is just people not taking the time to turn around and check. I made it a point to not use a scanner in 1.7 so that I would actually be forced to be aware of the battlefield around me. Not saying I see every scout or anything like that but turning around has saved me many a times. 90% of my time in a scout suit I either have uplinks for the start of the match or nano's and RE's for anti-tanking. Sure I might just appear out of nowhere behind you, but it's because I took a circuitous route and I made sure I was never where you looked. Would be interesting if the death screen showed if a cloak was fitted or not though. Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it.... damn you! Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1423	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:54:00 - [46] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. All that really proves is that you are better with the RR. The RR has a much lower RoF a lower DPS and only a slightly better range than the CR leaving the CR as the more powerful weapon in a vast majority of situations. Only in the 95 m plus ranges is the RR the better gun. Glad you finally found a weapon that suits your play style. As I neglected to include all of the info I used to compare the two weapons, your surface level analysis might be correct. I do not agree with your analysis though, based on my larger level of info. Thank you for the comment though. What larger level of info? My argument is based upon the actual stats of the weapons, almost two years of experience as well as testing both weapons on alts with created to only skill into the two weapons (so there were no other supporting skills clouding my observations). How does your own hugely unquantified and completely subjective opinion even come close to countering what I have posted? What "larger level of info" do you have that I and the rest of the DUST514 community don't have access too? Fun > Realism
Free Beers Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2452	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:55:00 - [47] - Quote CCP has a long track record of making gimmicks and not balance. A tracking shooter or high time too kill requires more skill then a "see first, shoot first, kill first" COD is what dust should be. The problem is ccp they like gimmicks like like cloaky shotgun scouts that can run 11 m/s and jump, decloak, 2 shot most suits before it even lands on the ground. I should know my scout alt i have gotten 10+ kdr 3 weeks straight doing it. The only thing i can say is that right now the only thing that can counter the mass of heavies is mass of scouts. So its a broken system once again Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2014.05.01 17:38:00 - [48] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Then there is the lack of skill required in using a rail rifle. I setup two fittings - identical except for the weapon - standard rail rifle and standard combat rifle. My kill ratio for rail rifle was/is easily 3x higher than with the combat rifle. All that really proves is that you are better with the RR. The RR has a much lower RoF a lower DPS and only a slightly better range than the CR leaving the CR as the more powerful weapon in a vast majority of situations. Only in the 95 m plus ranges is the RR the better gun. Glad you finally found a weapon that suits your play style. As I neglected to include all of the info I used to compare the two weapons, your surface level analysis might be correct. I do not agree with your analysis though, based on my larger level of info. Thank you for the comment though. What larger level of info? My argument is based upon the actual stats of the weapons, almost two years of experience as well as testing both weapons on alts with created to only skill into the two weapons (so there were no other supporting skills clouding my observations). How does your own hugely unquantified and completely subjective opinion even come close to countering what I have posted? What "larger level of info" do you have that I and the rest of the DUST514 community don't have access too? I apologize for hurting your feelings. I will refrain from commenting on anything, in the forums, you say from now on. Have a nice day.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 164	Posted - 2014.05.01 17:44:00 - [49] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Eruditus 920 wrote: OP, I bet you are of the generation that got a trophy for last place too, am I right? Find something to counter your problems with. The game offers a plethora of choices all designed to give you the ability to counter. Pity that as a newbie you won't have the SP to equip those counters until you grind for 6 months. SO TRUE! The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1841	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:31:00 - [50] - Quote Quote: How many people have been shot in the back or side from a Shotgun? This requires no skill from the player only a cloak. well of course you're gonna get shot in the back or side, the shotgun sucks! cloak is the only thing that makes it anywhere near useable and even then if your enemy is facing you you're pretty much dead cloak or otherwise. "I speak for the trees!" Ko6 scout,

Leonid Tybalt Inner.Hell 516	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:40:00 - [51] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: I tried brick-tanking a cloaked shotgun scout. I died a lot. Guess these dudes got more skill than me. I do it too. But I got a fit with mostly BPO-modules, suit and shotgun. The only parts I actually pay for are the cloak, a damage mod and remotes. (roughly 7000 isk in total) So I don't really care about dying a lot (which I do occasionally), because I turn a tidy profit every single match isk-wise, and earn plenty of skillpoints doing it. Oh and I also often get to troll people by sneaking up in their midst and kill them with a remote explosive.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 747	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:44:00 - [52] - Quote I will agree that the NPE needs significant improvement as for the rest I may not like it but the tactic is valid because it is effective. You do not have to be crazy to play here but we are willing to train you.
Leonid Tybalt Inner.Hell 516	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:48:00 - [53] - Quote I'll agree with the OP to a certain extent. That it requires significantly less skill to cloak up and shoot someone in the back, than it does to be constantly aware of cloaked scouts running in your vicinity. This is an imbalance that really needs to be adressed.
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 1395	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:50:00 - [54] - Quote Awkwardly slow with armor plates on my scout... you see so little brick tankers there nowadays but they're still out there. *Assassination is my thing.*
Duke Noobiam S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 92	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:01:00 - [55] - Quote My only beef with cloaks, is that users should have to fully uncloak (and have the sound effect completed) before they can get a shot off. This simple change/fix would go a long way to balancing the cloak. Something else they could do is to remove the reticule/dot you see when cloaked. This would make it harder to line up head-shots while cloaked. How do you kill that which has no life?
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 1547	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:09:00 - [56] - Quote GIT GUD BRO, SOME TACTICS R JUST SUPPOSED TO BE BETAR ^^^^^^^^^^^^Average Forum users reaction
RYN0CER0S Rise Of Old Dudes 80	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:10:00 - [57] - Quote What qualifies as a worthy, skilled kill? Apparently, you're only OK with dying to an Assault suit with a rifle running directly at you. Too much CoD has warped your sense of diversity. Stick around, we'll teach the ways of customization where it counts. The guy from the Hamburger train.
Asha Starwind 857	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:21:00 - [58] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Vin Vicious wrote: Cotsy wrote: I read the first sentence and laughed, if someone with a cloak is able to sneak up behind you and shotgun you in the back... Hmmm, yea, thats sort of the point. He wouldn't have needed the cloak to do so. You say its poor gameplay, but in fact its pure skill to sneak up behind someone and kill them. It takes strategy, positioning, awareness, anticipation, and of course map knowledge to do so. You sir, by getting killed from behind demonstrate the lack of skill and awareness and then poor sportsmanship by complaining about it. You seem to criticize the cloak for aiding him, but for a cloak to matter you would have had to had a chance to view him, and in the case where a scout sneaks up behind you.. Well you sir would not have seen him and therefore its a skillful play. Cloaks have serious problem, but you fail to make a valid point about their use in this case. Not even gonna bother criticizing the rest, but the goal of a scout should be the attacking from behind. If you can't understand that, i don't see how addressing the other issues matters. P.s this is possibly the dumbest defense of cloak shottys I've ever seen He does have a point, though. Assuming he's using a medium frame, he would not have seen a scout running behind him on his radar, nor would he on his frontal view (obviously). This enables the scouts to place a shot or two behind their target. What the cloak does, is give a broken amount of dampning to your dB so you can hide from scanners fairly easily. As for hiding from your eyes, well, that's a different story. I'll say that the medium was moving for example's sake. If the Scout was moving IN FRONT of the medium, there might've been a chance of the medium spotting him, but losing track if the Scout goes behind an object, rendering him out of sight. The medium would not know where the Scout would come out of next. Now, if the Scout was standing still, chances are very slim that the medium would spot him. You need to be very focused and have a good enough television to notice the difference between the background and the invisibility shroud. Point is, if the Scout stayed out of sight and shot him in the back, that meant he knew how to get there and how to avoid detection with or without cloak. ........buuuuuuuuuuuuuutttttttttttttttttttt there is a very high chance that isn't how it played out. Half of the scouts exercise very little caution when moving around the map run into just cloak up and stand still where they would otherwise be fully visible and just wait for peeps to walk past them or face away from them. I really don't have a problem with the tactic itself but at the fact that the cloaker can begin firing before they even fully de-cloak is what bothers me, at the same time giving the victims little to no warning e.g. decloaking audio cue that sometimes plays is pointless because the person decloaking has already remove half or more of your total health or has just outright killed you. An audio tell does wonders for the dead. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
2Berries Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 126	Posted - 2014.05.01 20:46:00 - [59] - Quote negative49er wrote: I hate that people are using the shotgun now I been shotgunning back at when uprising came out and there were a few shotgunner back then, but now they are made me hate my favorite weapon This. I got really into scouting the last 3 months of 1.7, now the adrenaline rush of shotty scout is replaced by shame since everyone & their alt has a cloaked shotty scout fit.
SHEPARDS ABONERBOMB Commando Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.05.01 21:05:00 - [60] - Quote [/quote] Alright. Newbie, how do you deal with Triple-repped Madrugars, LAV-Heavies, Redline Snipers? If the counter is the same thing as the thing you are attempting to counter, it doesn't count. Also, if your counter requires more than 1 person, it doesn't count.[/quote] Triple rep maddy gets hit by a jihad jeep and goes boom... Lav heavies get killed by well placed proxy mines and redline snipers get killed by a well placed orbital.

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1426	Posted - 2014.05.02 01:14:00 - [61] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: [ I apologize for hurting your feelings. I will refrain from commenting on anything, in the forums, you say from now on. Have a nice day. You are a grand troll lad but until you learn to actually create a cogent argument, reason and clear evidence, like what I presented, will always win. Good luck convincing anyone you are correct until then. Fun > Realism
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5246	Posted - 2014.05.02 09:35:00 - [62] - Quote TIMMY DAVIS wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: TIMMY DAVIS wrote: As I neglected to include all of the info I used to compare the two weapons, your surface level analysis might be correct. I do not agree with your analysis though, based on my larger level of info. Thank you for the comment though. What larger level of info? My argument is based upon the actual stats of the weapons, almost two years of experience as well as testing both weapons on alts with created to only skill into the two weapons (so there were no other supporting skills clouding my observations). How does your own hugely unquantified and completely subjective opinion even come close to countering what I have posted? What "larger level of info" do you have that I and the rest of the DUST514 community don't have access too? I apologize for hurting your feelings. I will refrain from commenting on anything, in the forums, you say from now on. Have a nice day. That wasn't hurt feelings. It was a request for you to share the "larger level of info" you claim to be basing your conclusion on. You stated that the Rail Rifle is a better weapon than the Combat Rifle, and the only evidence you have is that you, personally, perform better using it. Many other players use the Combat Rifle because they find THAT more powerful for the same reasons. They're more right than you, but they're still wrong. They've come to an accurate conclusion using invalid reasoning. Other people use the actual weapon stats to determine that the Combat Rifle is a more powerful weapon. These people are actually correct, but using incomplete data. The ones who really know what they're talking about have performed CONTROLLED tests with both weapons, and/or have studied the prevalence of those weapons within the playerbase across more than just their own personal experiences. These people's in-game tests have confirmed that the numbers stack up in practical use. The Rail Rifle is a solid weapon, but the Combat Rifle is demonstrably more effective in most situations. The numbers provided by the game AND the wider player experience confirms this to be fact. If you have additional information beyond your subjective experience with the weapons which proves this conclusion wrong, feel free to share. If not, welcome to New Eden.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 955	Posted - 2014.05.02 09:42:00 - [63] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: I tried brick-tanking a cloaked shotgun scout. I died a lot. Guess these dudes got more skill than me. Doing it wrong: brick tanked scouts and shotgun are an easy kill, unless they got you from behind. The real bad thing are Gallente Brick tanked Gal scouts with a complex dampener, cloak and a Combat Rifle. I am way more afraid of these cal scout with the six kin ACR, most of scout related deaths goes to them...
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 807	Posted - 2014.05.02 09:48:00 - [64] - Quote I hear your pain. Everything you mentioned is a well known issue and we have been told it is on their radar - how far out is unknown - we'll see if they mention anything like that in the EVE fanfest Dust keynote. The new player experience is atrocious and the retention is close to zero. I'm cautiously optimistic about what they are going to announce - they really need to have realistic projections.


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