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Leonid Tybalt
Inner.Hell
470
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Posted - 2014.04.16 19:03:00 -
[61] - Quote
And you base these conclusions on... What?
Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? |
Smooth Assassin
Stardust incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME
1269
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Posted - 2014.04.16 19:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
Forever ETC wrote:One thing that doesn't make sense to me is, when you get hit and receive the slow down effect, shouldn't that only happen when it hits armor? I mean, isn't the shield around you so it doesn't physically slow you down if it receives damage? The slow down effect is a bug and it occurs when shooting you're weapon or using a equipment and sprinting swiftly afterwards. Not when you're hit.
Assassination is my thing.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
5117
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Posted - 2014.04.16 21:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:And you base these conclusions on... What? Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? I based it off my year+ of experience in this game. You can't really use math to prove that Shields are as effective as Armor it's all subjective.
Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
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Heathen Bastard
The Bastard Brigade
1289
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Posted - 2014.04.16 22:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:And you base these conclusions on... What? Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? I based it off my year+ of experience in this game. You can't really use math to prove that Shields are as effective as Armor it's all subjective.
and just about everyone else' opinion is the opposite. guess what? a lot of us have a year+ of experience in the game too.
If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
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Bormir1r
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
294
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Posted - 2014.04.16 22:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Shields aren't meant to stand and deliver. They are meant for speed, agility and tactical positioning. Armor is meant for pressing the enemy, advancing and out lasting enemies in fair fights.
When you're shield tanking you're suppose to flank hard, dodge & weave and of course retreat fast. Shields aren't meant to be used to fight people head on. You're not suppose to feel comfortable taking on an armor tanker face to face in a fair fight.
Shield tankers either use their speed to close in on there opponents from behind and apply a quick burst of high damage (Minmatar), or get to tactically advantageous cover and use your fast shield regen to out shoot higher HP opponents by recovering HP faster (Caldari). Speed is much better than HP in most situations, and this is proven by how affective Scouts are against heavies who have 4-5x the health they do.
So shield tankers, which I'am one, need to stop playing like armor tankers and more importantly need to stop trying to get as much bonuses as them. Shield tankers get better regen and strafe. Speed is the name of the game, USE IT TO YOUR ADANTAGE. Shields and Armour are completely different play styles and we all need to stop pretending they're the same.The only thing that shield tankers should lobby for is Shield Extenders to be changed from 22 to 33, and 33 to 44.
Aim Assist hurts shield tanking though and makes strafing almost pointless. I do agree that shields should be changed from 22 to 33 and 33 to 44. Shield tanking is definitely more viable than it used to be though.
"One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
5119
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Posted - 2014.04.16 23:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:And you base these conclusions on... What? Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? I based it off my year+ of experience in this game. You can't really use math to prove that Shields are as effective as Armor it's all subjective. and just about everyone else' opinion is the opposite. guess what? a lot of us have a year+ of experience in the game too. Well, why don't you go out and use an Armor suit then. You said it yourself that you have only ever used armor on heavies. I feel that if you actually used an armored medium suit you wouldn't think armor is that good.
Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2544
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Posted - 2014.04.17 00:01:00 -
[67] - Quote
I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Pvt Numnutz
R 0 N 1 N
1109
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Posted - 2014.04.17 00:19:00 -
[68] - Quote
Yeah no sh-ít, if you can't figure out shields you must have never played halo. I would like to see low slot shield mods like regulators get a buff so I can properly shield tank instead of hybrid tanking which is just better... |
KING CHECKMATE
Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad.
5108
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Posted - 2014.04.17 00:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Good explanation.
Simple explanation: Armor = Stand infront of someone and trade gun fire. Shields = Get hit while strafing / running to a set objective , and be at full shields by the time the enemies get there. Ambush someone , attack from behind, win, and be at full HP for the next ambush.
You want to stand and fight you get armor. You want to sneak/flank or use ranged weapons, you shield tank.
Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
5122
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Posted - 2014.04.17 01:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Good explanation. Simple explanation: Armor = Stand infront of someone and trade gun fire. Shields = Get hit while strafing / running to a set objective , and be at full shields by the time the enemies get there. Ambush someone , attack from behind, win, and be at full HP for the next ambush. You want to stand and fight you get armor. You want to sneak/flank or use ranged weapons, you shield tank. Give this **** ****** a **** ***. He understands the concept.
Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
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RuckingFetard
Better Hide R Die
783
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Posted - 2014.04.17 09:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy. I read that and immediately came to the conclusion: Use Nova Knives
Running pure shield tanked Caldari 'cuz me a hippy
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2547
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Posted - 2014.04.17 10:45:00 -
[72] - Quote
RuckingFetard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy. I read that and immediately came to the conclusion: Use Nova Knives
Interesting, but basically the only the caldar will win is if the gallante is >50m while using an AR in the middle of an open field with no cover, considering gallante are supposed to be buffer tanks, their suit is quite balanced, however the caldari who are a Shield Buffer Tanker are at a severe disadvantage.
It also raises the question if shields aren't designed for frontal combat why give them tanking modules at all? The positional gameplay element is something that 'should' apply to light/minmatar suits because these suitsare purpose built with lower tank. A Shielded assault should be 'comparable' to armour suit, with small differences encouraging slightly different play styles. This current version does not do this.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
372
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:yeah, shields have to run, hide, and pray whenever an armor player shows up, because they won't win a stand up fight, and the armor player has enough tank to simply turn around and gun you down if you do get the drop on them because guess what? they have shields too, and only about 200 less. while you have 1/5 the armor.
because that's parity, right? to just have one side be outright weaker than the other... not true at all i used to be gallente assault but now im caldari and run shields. when you stack plates on a suit it gives you a huge penalty to strafe speed so a good shield user can go toe to toe he just has to sidestep the enemy fire.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2548
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:27:00 -
[74] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:RuckingFetard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy. I read that and immediately came to the conclusion: Use Nova Knives Interesting, but basically the only the caldar will win is if the gallante is >50m while using an AR in the middle of an open field with no cover, considering gallante are supposed to be buffer tanks, their suit is quite balanced, however the caldari who are a Shield Buffer Tanker are at a severe disadvantage. It also raises the question if shields aren't designed for frontal combat why give them tanking modules at all? The positional gameplay element is something that 'should' apply to light/minmatar suits because these suitsare purpose built with lower tank. A Shielded assault should be 'comparable' to armour suit, with small differences encouraging slightly different play styles. This current version does not do this.
So now just for all you lovely people I will have a crack at fixing this disparity. My intention is to have the 2 fits above be 'comparable' in a ckmbat situation.
1) 4 Shield Extenders < 2 Armour Plates is fundamentally wrong, plates should not offer such a large bonus over shields. Option A) Buff Shield Extenders to 90 EHP or Option B) Nerf Armour Plates to 100 EHP
In either case it will take only 3 extenders to match 2 armour plates. So while a Shield Tanker can be comparable to a buffer tanker, a full armour tanker is unmatchable.
2) Armour Suits get a free (self repping) buffer before their main Tank type, Shield tankers get a buffer after their main tank type, that does not self rep. Option A) Add +1HP/s armour reps to ALL suits. (Including Gallante) or Option B) Armour based suits do not get shield reps withojt fitting a rechargher/energizer first.
In either case this eliminates the gallantes free buffer advantage as caldari either get there own buffer, or gallante only get their buffer once.
As far as I am concerned this likely all that is needed, however I would not be adverse to give a slight armour repper buff to compensate 'slightly' for Shields better repping.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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RuckingFetard
Better Hide R Die
783
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heathen Bastard wrote:yeah, shields have to run, hide, and pray whenever an armor player shows up, because they won't win a stand up fight, and the armor player has enough tank to simply turn around and gun you down if you do get the drop on them because guess what? they have shields too, and only about 200 less. while you have 1/5 the armor.
because that's parity, right? to just have one side be outright weaker than the other... not true at all i used to be gallente assault but now im caldari and run shields. when you stack plates on a suit it gives you a huge penalty to strafe speed so a good shield user can go toe to toe he just has to sidestep the enemy fire. Unfortunately due to that stupid slowdown mechanic, this advantage is nullified, especially when trying to retreat.
Running pure shield tanked Caldari 'cuz me a hippy
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RuckingFetard
Better Hide R Die
783
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:34:00 -
[76] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:RuckingFetard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy. I read that and immediately came to the conclusion: Use Nova Knives Interesting, but basically the only the caldar will win is if the gallante is >50m while using an AR in the middle of an open field with no cover, considering gallante are supposed to be buffer tanks, their suit is quite balanced, however the caldari who are a Shield Buffer Tanker are at a severe disadvantage. It also raises the question if shields aren't designed for frontal combat why give them tanking modules at all? The positional gameplay element is something that 'should' apply to light/minmatar suits because these suitsare purpose built with lower tank. A Shielded assault should be 'comparable' to armour suit, with small differences encouraging slightly different play styles. This current version does not do this. So now just for all you lovely people I will have a crack at fixing this disparity. My intention is to have the 2 fits above be 'comparable' in a ckmbat situation. 1) 4 Shield Extenders < 2 Armour Plates is fundamentally wrong, plates should not offer such a large bonus over shields. Option A) Buff Shield Extenders to 90 EHP or Option B) Nerf Armour Plates to 100 EHP In either case it will take only 3 extenders to match 2 armour plates. So while a Shield Tanker can be comparable to a buffer tanker, a full armour tanker is unmatchable. 2) Armour Suits get a free (self repping) buffer before their main Tank type, Shield tankers get a buffer after their main tank type, that does not self rep. Option A) Add +1HP/s armour reps to ALL suits. (Including Gallante) or Option B) Armour based suits do not get shield reps withojt fitting a rechargher/energizer first. In either case this eliminates the gallantes free buffer advantage as caldari either get there own buffer, or gallante only get their buffer once. As far as I am concerned this likely all that is needed, however I would not be adverse to give a slight armour repper buff to compensate 'slightly' for Shields better repping. I don't think that complex extenders need buffing, rather, it's PG costs should be reduced, along with more parity between the different tiers. Honestly, if you wish to shield tank, you pretty much are forced to use complex extenders, which gimps your fit, especially at Adv and below.
Alternatively, Caldari can have their base shield HP buffed , with no change to armor values.
Running pure shield tanked Caldari 'cuz me a hippy
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2549
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:44:00 -
[77] - Quote
RuckingFetard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:RuckingFetard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think your oversimplifying the differences a bit too much there so let's look at some stats.
A prototype Caldari with max skills reaches 550 SHP 150 AHP +30 HP/s With 2.5 second delay 3.5 depleted.
Fit: 4+ù Extender 3x Regulator (All proto)
A prototype gallante with max skills reaches 150 SHP 560 AHP +15 HP/s with 0 delay. +3 dmg mods which debuffs opponent by about 12% EHP And self repping shield buffer at 10 HP/s with 8 sec delay
Fit: 2+ù Armour Plate 2x Repper 3x Light Damage Modifier
That gallante suit will beat the caldari suit EVERYTIME, well at least as far as maths is concerned. Not only does the gallante have 10EHP more, he does more damage, which means the caldari must be in cover earlier which allowsvthe gallante to rep to full almost as soon as the caldari does, this results in the gallante being capable of litterally walking up to the cover bound caldari and forcing him to his terms. Nullifying the caldari stratergy. I read that and immediately came to the conclusion: Use Nova Knives Interesting, but basically the only the caldar will win is if the gallante is >50m while using an AR in the middle of an open field with no cover, considering gallante are supposed to be buffer tanks, their suit is quite balanced, however the caldari who are a Shield Buffer Tanker are at a severe disadvantage. It also raises the question if shields aren't designed for frontal combat why give them tanking modules at all? The positional gameplay element is something that 'should' apply to light/minmatar suits because these suitsare purpose built with lower tank. A Shielded assault should be 'comparable' to armour suit, with small differences encouraging slightly different play styles. This current version does not do this. So now just for all you lovely people I will have a crack at fixing this disparity. My intention is to have the 2 fits above be 'comparable' in a ckmbat situation. 1) 4 Shield Extenders < 2 Armour Plates is fundamentally wrong, plates should not offer such a large bonus over shields. Option A) Buff Shield Extenders to 90 EHP or Option B) Nerf Armour Plates to 100 EHP In either case it will take only 3 extenders to match 2 armour plates. So while a Shield Tanker can be comparable to a buffer tanker, a full armour tanker is unmatchable. 2) Armour Suits get a free (self repping) buffer before their main Tank type, Shield tankers get a buffer after their main tank type, that does not self rep. Option A) Add +1HP/s armour reps to ALL suits. (Including Gallante) or Option B) Armour based suits do not get shield reps withojt fitting a rechargher/energizer first. In either case this eliminates the gallantes free buffer advantage as caldari either get there own buffer, or gallante only get their buffer once. As far as I am concerned this likely all that is needed, however I would not be adverse to give a slight armour repper buff to compensate 'slightly' for Shields better repping. I don't think that complex extenders need buffing, rather, it's PG costs should be reduced, along with more parity between the different tiers. Honestly, if you wish to shield tank, you pretty much are forced to use complex extenders, which gimps your fit, especially at Adv and below. Alternatively, Caldari can have their base shield HP buffed , with no change to armor values.
No I think it's costs are fine at the moment, you should be forced to pick between higher EHP or better weaponry, I would even say other high slot modules need their CPU reduced to make Extenders the most expensive to fit Itme.
My problem with Shileds vs Armour is that 1Armour Plate = 2 Extenders, you have to fit twice as many extenders to match armour, that means a Caldari Sentinel would require 10 extenders to match a brick tanked gallante, which just shows why caldari sentinels are nearly as popular. By making 1Armour Plate = 1.5 Extenders the EHP buffer is more comparable. It becomes close enough that armour tankers can't just brick out on armour all the time, different playstyles of both suits become more useful and prelevant. So instead of having gallante sentinels with 1900 EHP you see more of them with 1200 and 30 Hp/s reps.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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