DUST Search - Shields aren't suppose to be like Armor

Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:

DeadlyAztec11 wrote:

Shields aren't meant to stand and deliver. They are meant for speed, agility and tactical positioning. Armor is meant for pressing the enemy, advancing and out lasting enemies in fair fights.

When you're shield tanking you're suppose to flank hard, dodge & weave and of course retreat fast. Shields aren't meant to be used to fight people head on. You're not suppose to feel comfortable taking on an armor tanker face to face in a fair fight.

Shield tankers either use their speed to close in on there opponents from behind and apply a quick burst of high damage (Minmatar), or get to tactically advantageous cover and use your fast shield regen to out shoot higher HP opponents by recovering HP faster (Caldari). Speed is much better than HP in most situations, and this is proven by how affective Scouts are against heavies who have 4-5x the health they do.

So shield tankers, which I'am one, need to stop playing like armor tankers and more importantly need to stop trying to get as much bonuses as them. Shield tankers get better regen and strafe. Speed is the name of the game, USE IT TO YOUR ADANTAGE. Shields and Armour are completely different play styles and we all need to stop pretending they're the same.The only thing that shield tankers should lobby for is Shield Extenders to be changed from 22 to 33, and 33 to 44.

Shield doesn't mean fast. Caldari weapons and tactics aren't built around speed, but are built around range. An often said quote for the Caldari weapons systems are "I don't need a fast ship, I can hit you from here". The ion pistol, rail rifle, forge gun, are all longer range weapons (Longer than their cousin hybrid, the blaster), with slower rates of fire, slower tracking, and more volley damage. Ideally, a Rail Rifle should have a lot of trouble up close, and would lose to a blaster 1v1 (pitting hybrid versus hybrid), but at range, Rail Rifle should stand tall and kill the Blaster (Being the Assault Rifle). Even though the Gallente are armor, they are most likely more agile than the Caldari, and are meant for close range combat.


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DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5077	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:26:00 - [1] - Quote Shields aren't meant to stand and deliver. They are meant for speed, agility and tactical positioning. Armor is meant for pressing the enemy, advancing and out lasting enemies in fair fights. When you're shield tanking you're suppose to flank hard, dodge & weave and of course retreat fast. Shields aren't meant to be used to fight people head on. You're not suppose to feel comfortable taking on an armor tanker face to face in a fair fight. Shield tankers either use their speed to close in on there opponents from behind and apply a quick burst of high damage (Minmatar), or get to tactically advantageous cover and use your fast shield regen to out shoot higher HP opponents by recovering HP faster (Caldari). Speed is much better than HP in most situations, and this is proven by how affective Scouts are against heavies who have 4-5x the health they do. So shield tankers, which I'am one, need to stop playing like armor tankers and more importantly need to stop trying to get as much bonuses as them. Shield tankers get better regen and strafe. Speed is the name of the game, USE IT TO YOUR ADANTAGE. Shields and Armour are completely different play styles and we all need to stop pretending they're the same.The only thing that shield tankers should lobby for is Shield Extenders to be changed from 22 to 33, and 33 to 44. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5079	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:35:00 - [2] - Quote Forever ETC wrote: One thing that doesn't make sense to me is, when you get hit and receive the slow down effect, shouldn't that only happen when it hits armor? I mean, isn't the shield around you so it doesn't physically slow you down if it receives damage? It should be removed all together. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5079	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:37:00 - [3] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: ok, as soon as i can take 1 bullet before having to hide then we'll talk. When I don't have to hide for a quarter of the game to get my armor back to full, then I'll take you seriously. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5085	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:41:00 - [4] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: I agree. I was an armor kitted merc in 1.7 and before and now I've swapped to shields. It's an entirely different play style that really forced me to rethink my approach to the game and the weapons that work for it. I had to retire my beautiful Scrambler Rifle and swap to the much superior Assault Rifle for close range hit and run tactics (usually involving multiple enemies). And for the record: I've been running my exile and it's amazing. A lot of people are complaining about the AR being under powered but I honestly just don't see it. It's an extremely effective tool within range and offers a lot of advantages over the other options. Shield tanking took a bit to really sink into, but once I did I feel like I'm a better player for it. I can't just trade hits anymore, though. Taking cover and popping out to lay damage down isn't as satisfying and way more risky now, but it's a good thing. The game has flow and it has balance in that sense. Personally I think it's fantastic that so many different play styles can be properly represented. Yep the AR is a lot more suited to Shield suits, or ferroscale stacked suits. Armored Gallante suits are not nearly as affective with the AR as the Caldari, or even the Minmatar, because they're better at strafing. Speed is a big deal in this game. Back when I used the Gallante Assault I loved to stack Ferroscale so I could keep all my speed. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5085	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:44:00 - [5] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: ok, as soon as i can take 1 bullet before having to hide then we'll talk. When I don't have to hide for a quarter of the game to get my armor back to full, then I'll take you seriously. rep hives, logi, your shields, dont stack all plates... Energizers, Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzers. You have the speed, use it. Both Amor and Shields have downsides, don't act like shields get the short end of the stick. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5087	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:54:00 - [6] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: yeah, shields have to run, hide, and pray whenever an armor player shows up, because they won't win a stand up fight, and the armor player has enough tank to simply turn around and gun you down if you do get the drop on them because guess what? they have shields too, and only about 200 less. while you have 1/5 the armor. because that's parity, right? to just have one side be outright weaker than the other... If I can take on heavies and their Logi minions in a Minmatar Assault(AKA Militia Caldari medium with fast stamina regen) you can fight them too. I play to the Minmatar advantage and run behind enemies and m+¬l+¬e them for 196 damage, then I finish them with CR bursts to the back of the head. The Caldari make the best use of gliding side jumps and strafing. You need to hit your opponents first to slow them down, then you dance around them to finish them. It's all about tactics. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5091	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:59:00 - [7] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: So I'm guessing you're not one of those shield tanked suits with a rail weapon then. How do you explain that kind of gameplay style where you're supposed to stay so far away from your opponents that there isn't a chance they can even dent your shields at that range? The whole point being stationary and tanking instead of using speed to your advantage. This is why I feel that shield tankers complain. Rail Rifle users are suppose to try to shoot for head shots(to apply the highest damage), then try to have a very curt shoot out with their opponents. If they're are armor tankers then you shoot at each other until you're almost out of shields. Then you hide, reload, regen to full HP and finish them off since their armor regen is bad. You don't have to be a hundred yards from the action, you just need a little bit of cover. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5091	Posted - 2014.04.16 04:06:00 - [8] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: Shield tanking is just not viable in the game right now. You absolutely know it is far inferior to armor tanking. Shield tanking is far harder to fit, lacks any kind of teamwork that makes it better, regen is too meaningless when the hp gap is too hard to overcome, scales terribly, has no useful secondary mod (regulators and energizers are far too weak.) It's one advantage, and seriously the only, is speed. Regen debate is completely moot because of rep tools/repair hives and general survivability. Flanking and attacking is a general tactic, not one only applying to shields tankers. Shield tankers are the best flankers though. Also team work is very much viable with Shiekd suits. Get behind a piece of cover, or in a building, with some buddies (4+). Two of you shoot at in coming enemies. Then when you two front men get two damaged they switch with the two other guys. The wounded men regen fast and get ammo, then they're ready to fight by the time the two other front men have their shields wasted. In this way Shield tankers can provide a consistent form of defence and pressure, and a much smaller group can take on a much larger force without being caught with their pants down. Armor tankers don't have the regen or general speed to pull this off. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5094	Posted - 2014.04.16 04:15:00 - [9] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: You can do the exact same thing with a single heavy armor tanker and a logi with a core focussed rep tool. "See, it's totally balanced, you only need 4 shield guys working perfectly to do something any two braindead armor tankers can do" Except that then you have one guy who's vulnerable to be killed, and then if he does get killed then everyone he's supporting is screwed: "Pull a pin from the bottom and the whole stack falls". If you kill one guy from a group of shield tankers then the only thing that you hurt is their fire power. That's the big vulnerability of Armor tankers, you need to have a Logi, and you need to make sure they don't die. Or they are stuck to a spot because that's where they have their triage nanohive. Shield tankers don't have to be reliant on other players or equipment, and that's what makes them so flexible and adaptable. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5094	Posted - 2014.04.16 04:28:00 - [10] - Quote [quote=Heathen Bastard] Fit a reactive plate, takes care of all armor concerns on shield classes. Anyways, I'd rather have a seamless force that can remain mobile and provide constant fire power, than a force that has to slow down and repair to provide a short burst of power before they need to take a collective brake. But that's just the thing, Armor and Shields have different strengths and weaknesses. People just need to pick what fits them best. I do better with shields and speed, so that's what I use. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5096	Posted - 2014.04.16 04:36:00 - [11] - Quote Denn Maell wrote: Passive tanking and active tanking are not synonymous with shield and armor. In Eve you can tank his and stand and deliver with shield ships (that's what Caldari are all about), and you can fast-regen tank (That's what Gallente favor). Maybe one day both will be viable in DustGÇª Those subclasses don't really exist in a consistent form in Dust. The Gallante are SUPPOSE to have a bit of armor, that allows them moderate speed and that they can quickly regen. While the Amarr are suppose to have the most HP period(Shield and Armor), while using their high stamina to move across the field at a consistent and pressing fashion. The Caldari are suppose to have a ton of Shields they can regen fast, with no movement penalty. While the Minmatar are suppose to have a slight bit of Shields AND Amor that they can regen at moderate speeds, while having very fast strafe speeds. These play styles aren't exactly cookie cutter from EVE. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5101	Posted - 2014.04.16 04:40:00 - [12] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: [quote=Heathen Bastard] Fit a reactive plate, takes care of all armor concerns on shield classes. Anyways, I'd rather have a seamless force that can remain mobile and provide constant fire power, than a force that has to slow down and repair to provide a short burst of power before they need to take a collective brake. But that's just the thing, Armor and Shields have different strengths and weaknesses. People just need to pick what fits them best. I do better with shields and speed, so that's what I use. So, to fix the armor/shield imbalance, I have to fit armor plates on my shield suits... NIce, yeah, lets not try to fix the problem, just tell people to fit a plate that slows them down(whoops, there goes your precious speed tanking) so that they have the "right" tank(armor) and that it repairs itself. and you can rep and walk at the same time. so cram your "armor is slow" argument. Heavies are slow. and shield heavies are again, inferior due to having the wrong tank. Basic Reactive plates have no speed penalty, and cost only 10 CPU plus 1 PG. Anyways if you can't make shields work then that's YOUR issue. All I know is that I get 2 to 3 the amount of kills, and less than half the deaths, with a shield suit over an armor suit. Shields work for me, armor doesn't work for me :: Armor works for you, shields do not work for you. That's just the way it is. Don't blame the style, blame the artist. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5102	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:02:00 - [13] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: I've used shields since closed beta See, you still have the mentality from that time period. Back then everybody ran shields, so you could face people in fair open gun fights and not be at a disadvantage. Things are different now, people actually use armor outside of heavies. Try being am armor tanker(medium suit) for a week. I guarantee you'll get over your "shields are worst in every possible way" attitude. You think having yo wait 20 seconds to recharge shields is bad? Try having to wait 1:30 for your armor to heal. The struggle is real, and I can guarantee that the grass is no greener on the other side. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5104	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:15:00 - [14] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Heathen Bastard wrote: I've used shields since closed beta See, you still have the mentality from that time period. Back then everybody ran shields, so you could face people in fair open gun fights and not be at a disadvantage. Things are different now, people actually use armor outside of heavies. Try being am armor tanker(medium suit) for a week. I guarantee you'll get over your "shields are worst in every possible way" attitude. You think having yo wait 20 seconds to recharge shields is bad? Try having to wait 1:30 for your armor to heal. The struggle is real, and I can guarantee that the grass is no greener on the other side. lets see, 250 shields, 400+ armor, decent regen, much higher chance of winning fights, what am i missing? Strafe speed, jump height, and stamina regen. A gun fight is more than just X + b = T, it's more like Watermelon -¦ Duct tape = -\|Lobster x (27++0)\| Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5104	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:16:00 - [15] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Shields aren't meant to stand and deliver. They are meant for speed, agility and tactical positioning. Armor is meant for pressing the enemy, advancing and out lasting enemies in fair fights. When you're shield tanking you're suppose to flank hard, dodge & weave and of course retreat fast. Shields aren't meant to be used to fight people head on. You're not suppose to feel comfortable taking on an armor tanker face to face in a fair fight. Shield tankers either use their speed to close in on there opponents from behind and apply a quick burst of high damage (Minmatar), or get to tactically advantageous cover and use your fast shield regen to out shoot higher HP opponents by recovering HP faster (Caldari). Speed is much better than HP in most situations, and this is proven by how affective Scouts are against heavies who have 4-5x the health they do. So shield tankers, which I'am one, need to stop playing like armor tankers and more importantly need to stop trying to get as much bonuses as them. Shield tankers get better regen and strafe. Speed is the name of the game, USE IT TO YOUR ADANTAGE. Shields and Armour are completely different play styles and we all need to stop pretending they're the same.The only thing that shield tankers should lobby for is Shield Extenders to be changed from 22 to 33, and 33 to 44. Brofist Take my fit for example. Min Scout, with 265 shields at proto. All I need. Why? I run an enhanced energizer and a Complex Regulator. That gives me 60 shield a second and 3 second downtime. On Top of a cloak, dampener, and speed. I can engage targets, and destroy them in a game of attrition. Take down a target quickly. Weaken another. Fall back when I take damage. Cloak, re-position, re-engage. Rinse and Repeat until they all die. If reinforcements prove too much? Fall all the way back. At least you slowed them down a bit. Damn straight, give me skin cuz. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5104	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:19:00 - [16] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: well my cal scout assault i cant fit a cloak...just 2 shield regs Cloaks are overrated. Most good players will see you coming from a mile away anyways and anyone who can't is easy enough to take out without wearing a cloak. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5104	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:23:00 - [17] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: one bullet hits you and the "physical impulse" kills you because your precious speed just got yanked, jumps put you on a nice, predictable path, and if you live long enough to regen stamina, then the other person is terrible and should feel bad. Looks like 90% of my opponents need to go give back their proto gear and go.back to the academy. Also, the stamina regen on the Minmatar Assault is ridiculously, absurdly, and even stupidly fast. You blink twice and you have half your stamina back. Also, jumps are used best when behind people, then when they start turning.around you can jump sideways to put a couple more shots in them before they can shoot back. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5104	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:26:00 - [18] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: lets see hp>speed always a logi near aim assist better fitting, for better weapons & such so, shields are SO much better If you think HP>Speed then you probably never witnessed a scout with less than 209 HP take our a heavy with more than 1k HP. It happens a lot more often then you'd think. Everybody has aim assist so it's irrelevant, and Logi's are usually cannon fodder (walking ISK). Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5105	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:35:00 - [19] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Heathen Bastard wrote: one bullet hits you and the "physical impulse" kills you because your precious speed just got yanked, jumps put you on a nice, predictable path, and if you live long enough to regen stamina, then the other person is terrible and should feel bad. Looks like 90% of my opponents need to go give back their proto gear and go.back to the academy. Also, the stamina regen on the Minmatar Assault is ridiculously, absurdly, and even stupidly fast. You blink twice and you have half your stamina back. Also, jumps are used best when behind people, then when they start turning.around you can jump sideways to put a couple more shots in them before they can shoot back. and then they shoot back, and you get killed. I just don't know what to tell you. All I know is that nothing I tell you will convince you that Shields are on par with armor. Still, I'm content knowing the proof is in the putting, and darn it that's good enough for me. I remember five months ago, when I armor tanked, I tried convincing them that Armor was fine. Anyways, go try out an armor tanked medium suit. Heck, you may just like it better than shields and switch over, or you may realize how even Shields and Armor are. Either way you spin it, the experience should be good for you. Anyways, I'm probably going to log off soon. Night, from NoVa. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5105	Posted - 2014.04.16 08:06:00 - [20] - Quote medomai grey wrote: I'd like to correct a misconception. Shield tanking does not make you faster; they don't. Although for some odd reason, stacking shield extenders make you worse at shield tanking? And the speed penalty for armor plates was reduced to non-factor levels a long time ago. Is there a balance issue between shields and armor? I believe so. Caldari medium frames are dual tanking. Stacking heavy armor reps on your vehicle heals you faster than shields can recharge, but constantly. They introduced the shield extender penalty because Armor tanking was extremely easy to do on the Logi suits and made Armor redundant as you could play like Armor, while maintaining all the good points on shields. Logi suits, particularly the Caldari Logi, have been nerfed enough that the shield extender delay penalty is no longer needed. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5116	Posted - 2014.04.16 18:32:00 - [21] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Shields aren't meant to stand and deliver. They are meant for speed, agility and tactical positioning. Armor is meant for pressing the enemy, advancing and out lasting enemies in fair fights. When you're shield tanking you're suppose to flank hard, dodge & weave and of course retreat fast. Shields aren't meant to be used to fight people head on. You're not suppose to feel comfortable taking on an armor tanker face to face in a fair fight. Shield tankers either use their speed to close in on there opponents from behind and apply a quick burst of high damage (Minmatar), or get to tactically advantageous cover and use your fast shield regen to out shoot higher HP opponents by recovering HP faster (Caldari). Speed is much better than HP in most situations, and this is proven by how affective Scouts are against heavies who have 4-5x the health they do. So shield tankers, which I'am one, need to stop playing like armor tankers and more importantly need to stop trying to get as much bonuses as them. Shield tankers get better regen and strafe. Speed is the name of the game, USE IT TO YOUR ADANTAGE. Shields and Armour are completely different play styles and we all need to stop pretending they're the same.The only thing that shield tankers should lobby for is Shield Extenders to be changed from 22 to 33, and 33 to 44. Shield doesn't mean fast. Caldari weapons and tactics aren't built around speed, but are built around range. An often said quote for the Caldari weapons systems are "I don't need a fast ship, I can hit you from here". The ion pistol, rail rifle, forge gun, are all longer range weapons (Longer than their cousin hybrid, the blaster), with slower rates of fire, slower tracking, and more volley damage. Ideally, a Rail Rifle should have a lot of trouble up close, and would lose to a blaster 1v1 (pitting hybrid versus hybrid), but at range, Rail Rifle should stand tall and kill the Blaster (Being the Assault Rifle). Even though the Gallente are armor, they are most likely more agile than the Caldari, and are meant for close range combat. That's EVE, in Dust the Gallante are slower than the Caldari in every single aspect that counts. Also the Rail Rifle is stronger in CQC than the AR. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5117	Posted - 2014.04.16 21:52:00 - [22] - Quote Leonid Tybalt wrote: And you base these conclusions on... What? Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? I based it off my year+ of experience in this game. You can't really use math to prove that Shields are as effective as Armor it's all subjective. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5119	Posted - 2014.04.16 23:30:00 - [23] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Leonid Tybalt wrote: And you base these conclusions on... What? Or are we to assume that it's only your biased and subjective opinions speaking? I based it off my year+ of experience in this game. You can't really use math to prove that Shields are as effective as Armor it's all subjective. and just about everyone else' opinion is the opposite. guess what? a lot of us have a year+ of experience in the game too. Well, why don't you go out and use an Armor suit then. You said it yourself that you have only ever used armor on heavies. I feel that if you actually used an armored medium suit you wouldn't think armor is that good. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5122	Posted - 2014.04.17 01:50:00 - [24] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Good explanation. Simple explanation: Armor = Stand infront of someone and trade gun fire. Shields = Get hit while strafing / running to a set objective , and be at full shields by the time the enemies get there. Ambush someone , attack from behind, win, and be at full HP for the next ambush. You want to stand and fight you get armor. You want to sneak/flank or use ranged weapons, you shield tank. Give this ** ** a *. He understands the concept. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ