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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
432
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Posted - 2014.04.11 17:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
1.7 the complaint was tanks. 1.8 it's scouts. There's a very large and fairly obvious shared issued with both these roles which exacerbates the problems to the level that it's in and is a FUNDAMENTAL balancing ideology that needs to be addressed for this game to reach the level I know it can and should be.
That issue is simply this: The best counter to a play style should almost never be itself.
With 1.7 tanks and the way that AV was currently being utilized the only thing that could really handle the tanks on the battlefield were other tanks. It was, to put it diplomatically, problematic. It hindered the general flow of play and having tanks on the field on either side proved to be more of a detriment to a battle than an improvement of variety and circumstance. Many people complained. Several switched to red line rail fits just to try to do something about it. The infantry was furious at the tanks, the vehicle pilots were furious at the red line rails. Not too many people were happy and it showed. The way to defeat tanks WAS tanks and the battle trends followed that logic to just compound the issue.
Now with 1.8 most people complain about scouts. And there's a problem with cloak times, sure, and brick tanking a scout, fine. But those are NOT the main issues. The problem with scouts is that the things that best counter a scout is another scout. The main weakness of a scout is being seen and not having the option to cherry pick their fights and dictate the battle conditions. The only suits that can rob a scout of his or her ability to do so reliably is another scout suit that's kitting ewar modules, and therein lies the problem almost entirely. People hate having to deal with scouts so in an effort to combat them their option is to become the thing on the battlefield that bothers them. It's the same with the way tanks progressed in 1.7. And with everyone converting over to scouts to solve their own personal scout problem it just adds more to the battlefield, increasing other peoples issues with them.
The solution is one that creates a healthy dynamic of game play and allows for fluidity across play styles: the best counter to a scout needs to be a different suit, which is then countered by something else entirely and so the clockwork mechanisms of war spin.
My personal thought on the issue is that the logical heir to the mantelpiece of counter-scout is the logistics suit. The Gallente is already semi-poised in the right direction with having a bonus to active scanners, but largely speaking it's not enough. I run scout suits (not Gallente) undampened and uncloaked and I get under more than 50% of all scans without too much issue. A think a smallish buff in passive scanning on a logistic suit might go a long way into making passive modules more functional for them (small steps here, it would be way too easy for the pendulum to swing the other way and make the scouts undesirable, too), or even a small buff to the angle that active scanners can sweep, which would make them more reliable without necessarily making them any stronger, which incentiveizes using them more.
All in all there are options, for sure, but the bigger issue to be addressed here is the crux of my argument. When the best counter for a play style is the same play style then the battle trend will always settle there. When you keep the gears moving you keep the fight fresh and I think most people will be happier with a robust theater of war.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Ace Boone
G0DS AM0NG MEN Dirt Nap Squad.
98
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Posted - 2014.04.11 17:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
My commando wrecks scouts
My logi wrecks scouts
My heavy wrecks scouts.
If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?
meh.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2048
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Posted - 2014.04.11 17:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's pretty simple, the only thing that can ever detect a standard or advanced scout suit (with level 5 skills) is another scout suit, or a gal logi with a proto scanner (a fitting that costs way more than the scout). One on one a scout has a slight advantage if you know he's there. The problem is squads of scouts. You see one and start planning to take him out, and the one behind you that nobody else saw takes you out first. A squad of scouts working together can dismantle an entire team and wipe their uplinks out, pushing them into the redline.
Rock / paper / scissors only works when rock isn't better than everything else. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
578
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything being said so far - I just want to say scouts were always my hardest opponents, yet they weren't always OP...
The Ghost of Bravo
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Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
257
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Buff all scanners strength by a few dB's, and increase the scanning angle a few degrees, and you have a balanced game again. I would like for Scanners to have shorter cooldowns, but I'm unsure of how to balance that. Maybe the Gal Logi should get a cooldown reduction bonus as well. |
Yan Darn
Science For Death
578
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Buff all scanners strength by a few dB's, and increase the scanning angle a few degrees, and you have a balanced game again. I would like for Scanners to have shorter cooldowns, but I'm unsure of how to balance that. Maybe the Gal Logi should get a cooldown reduction bonus as well.
I really feel they only ever needed to fix the 360 thing (at least at first) - giving the gal the precision bonus I believe was part of the reason the db got nerfed too.
Give gal cooldown and duration - use more or less 1.7 stats for everything else. It was kinda silly to nerf nearly everything about scanners when you were giving scouts a buff to stealth and fixing the 360 issue.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Sir Snugglz
Red Star. EoN.
627
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
My Xt-1 wrecks scouts... nothing better than seeing bodies decloak in midair
-Pro AFKing LVL 5
-Luck is just one of my skills
-Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
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NAV HIV
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
1436
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:My commando wrecks scouts
My logi wrecks scouts
My heavy wrecks scouts.
If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?
Lot of words from a player who gets Butthurt over pub matches lol |
Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
437
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:My commando wrecks scouts
My logi wrecks scouts
My heavy wrecks scouts.
If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?
Yes, any suit can kill any other suit under the right conditions. But balance is a different topic as to what CAN beat something else. You have to take a statistical approach and not a personal one.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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A'Real Fury
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
630
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Posted - 2014.04.11 20:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
One concern that jumps out me here is that currently:
1. gal scout has the best ability to stay off the radar or to brick tank 2. The suggestion that gal logi should be granted an even greater ability to active scan their surroundings.
This is effectively changing the racial balance even more in the Gallentes favour. They will have the ability to see everybody with only their scouts being able to avoid the active scans.
However, I do agree that the best counter should not be the same thing as the threat but I do think that a certain amount of sacrifice should be involved e.g. the logi needs to fit an additional piece of equipment that boosts the ability of the scanner. This would be similar to AV players who sacrifice their chances of fighting a pure infantry player.
But I would also say that unlike the issues we are currently having between havs and AV scouts are still vulnerable to the observant and any weapon if pointed in the right direction.
What I would like to see is some cpu/pg penalty to stacking armour plates. It could be explained that normal armour plates are not designed to fit such small frames and as a result do not integrate with the suit as effectively as medium and large frames. |
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2051
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:What I would like to see is some cpu/pg penalty to stacking armour plates. It could be explained that normal armour plates are not designed to fit such small frames and as a result do not integrate with the suit as effectively as medium and large frames
As someone who trained gal scout 5 right after 1.8, this is a potential fix I've been bringing up. Eve has the idea of "role" bonuses on tech2 ships. The way that works is things like a 50% bonus to something regardless of how many levels you have in the skill. You could do the same thing with a penalty. ie: 50% penalty to fitting costs for standard plates to light frames
Though I'm not completely convinced that is the way to go. I'd still like to see non-cloaky scouts viable in a front line role for squad support. The idea being that you brick tank your scout so that you can survive without a cloak in the middle of a full squad, and support them with your passive scan. It's hard to really say what the fix should be. |
A'Real Fury
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
632
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Quote:What I would like to see is some cpu/pg penalty to stacking armour plates. It could be explained that normal armour plates are not designed to fit such small frames and as a result do not integrate with the suit as effectively as medium and large frames As someone who trained gal scout 5 right after 1.8, this is a potential fix I've been bringing up. Eve has the idea of "role" bonuses on tech2 ships. The way that works is things like a 50% bonus to something regardless of how many levels you have in the skill. You could do the same thing with a penalty. ie: 50% penalty to fitting costs for standard plates to light frames Though I'm not completely convinced that is the way to go. I'd still like to see non-cloaky scouts viable in a front line role for squad support. The idea being that you brick tank your scout so that you can survive without a cloak in the middle of a full squad, and support them with your passive scan. It's hard to really say what the fix should be.
The fix, as such, may not be to change the scout at all but by changing the Assault class to give them a more defined role. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2051
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Quote:What I would like to see is some cpu/pg penalty to stacking armour plates. It could be explained that normal armour plates are not designed to fit such small frames and as a result do not integrate with the suit as effectively as medium and large frames As someone who trained gal scout 5 right after 1.8, this is a potential fix I've been bringing up. Eve has the idea of "role" bonuses on tech2 ships. The way that works is things like a 50% bonus to something regardless of how many levels you have in the skill. You could do the same thing with a penalty. ie: 50% penalty to fitting costs for standard plates to light frames Though I'm not completely convinced that is the way to go. I'd still like to see non-cloaky scouts viable in a front line role for squad support. The idea being that you brick tank your scout so that you can survive without a cloak in the middle of a full squad, and support them with your passive scan. It's hard to really say what the fix should be. The fix, as such, may not be to change the scout at all but by changing the Assault class to give them a more defined role.
Even just a solid buff to the base hp of medium frames could do it. |
Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2532
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
The best counter to scouts isn't other scouts though... HMGs and eyes are the best counters to scouts.
Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet
Gallente Neutron Rifle
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Black SlaverX
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
140
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Posted - 2014.04.11 22:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:My commando wrecks scouts - unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking
My logi wrecks scouts- unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking
My heavy wrecks scouts. - unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking
If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?
FTFY
So, at 50+ meteres, or on a bright background, cloaks areundetectable, meaning easy flanking, meaning 1k damage to the back before they uncloak.
Watch your back because I might be there.
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
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Posted - 2014.04.11 22:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:One concern that jumps out me here is that currently:
1. gal scout has the best ability to stay off the radar or to brick tank 2. The suggestion that gal logi should be granted an even greater ability to active scan their surroundings.
This is effectively changing the racial balance even more in the Gallentes favour. They will have the ability to see everybody with only their scouts being able to avoid the active scans.
I never said anything specifically about changing the racial bonuses of the Gallente suits at all. I said a small passive bonus to all logis or a bonus to scan angle of ALL scanners. Neither of these hit the Gallente specifically, but they could potentially benefit the most from it being used properly.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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GunBunnie
cheapskates
4
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Posted - 2014.04.11 22:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Let's just hope CCP doesn't go down the path of wargaming and make something FOTM to get people to dump Aurum into it, then nerf it later then rinse repeat. |
Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
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Posted - 2014.04.11 22:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:One concern that jumps out me here is that currently:
1. gal scout has the best ability to stay off the radar or to brick tank 2. The suggestion that gal logi should be granted an even greater ability to active scan their surroundings.
This is effectively changing the racial balance even more in the Gallentes favour. They will have the ability to see everybody with only their scouts being able to avoid the active scans.
I will add this, though: the Gallente already have the bonus to armor reps that no other suit seems to have matched. It's just a free thing they get that maybe all other races need an analog for. For the purposes of this topic if, hypothetically, all Caldari suits got a 10% bonus to scan precision (and the scout had it's bonus slightly reduced to compensate) then that might help shift the battle trends over to Caldari as your counter scout, even outside of the scout role itself. Amarr with a bonus of plate penalty reduction (maybe half the penalty other suits incur?) and Minmatar with let's say a 20% bonus to shield reps (either amount repped or delay time, could be either). Now everything has a very defined role that highlights their race's strengths and gives a bit more combat dynamics.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
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Posted - 2014.04.11 22:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
GunBunnie wrote:Let's just hope CCP doesn't go down the path of wargaming and make something FOTM to get people to dump Aurum into it, then nerf it later then rinse repeat.
I doubt it. That's a short term strategy for a game that has a very defined long term goal. They want to get everything in place as much as possible as SOON as possible so they can work on other things and build the player base. They stand to make WAY more money out of a functioning machine of player activity than a short con nickle and dime scheme. There's not a chance they're that short sighted.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
479
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Posted - 2014.04.12 00:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Balance |
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Rusty Shallows
1494
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Posted - 2014.04.12 00:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Are LAVs "mushroom?"
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad.
2455
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Posted - 2014.04.12 00:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Light frames and heavy frames seem well balanced against each other. All that we really need is the unfinished buff to medium frames they couldn't get around to for 1.8. |
Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
453
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ahahaha. This guy's got the right idea.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
453
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Light frames and heavy frames seem well balanced against each other. All that we really need is the unfinished buff to medium frames they couldn't get around to for 1.8.
I agree with this, mostly. And there is a certain balance to cloaked shotty scouts taking out heavies. The balance is CLOSE, I will give it that, but there needs to be some changes to the design philosophy to make sure it carries over in the right direction.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
1668
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ander Thedas wrote:1.7 the complaint was tanks. 1.8 it's scouts. There's a very large and fairly obvious shared issued with both these roles which exacerbates the problems to the level that it's in and is a FUNDAMENTAL balancing ideology that needs to be addressed for this game to reach the level I know it can and should be.
That issue is simply this: The best counter to a play style should almost never be itself.
With 1.7 tanks and the way that AV was currently being utilized the only thing that could really handle the tanks on the battlefield were other tanks. It was, to put it diplomatically, problematic. It hindered the general flow of play and having tanks on the field on either side proved to be more of a detriment to a battle than an improvement of variety and circumstance. Many people complained. Several switched to red line rail fits just to try to do something about it. The infantry was furious at the tanks, the vehicle pilots were furious at the red line rails. Not too many people were happy and it showed. The way to defeat tanks WAS tanks and the battle trends followed that logic to just compound the issue.
Now with 1.8 most people complain about scouts. And there's a problem with cloak times, sure, and brick tanking a scout, fine. But those are NOT the main issues. The problem with scouts is that the things that best counter a scout is another scout. The main weakness of a scout is being seen and not having the option to cherry pick their fights and dictate the battle conditions. The only suits that can rob a scout of his or her ability to do so reliably is another scout suit that's kitting ewar modules, and therein lies the problem almost entirely. People hate having to deal with scouts so in an effort to combat them their option is to become the thing on the battlefield that bothers them. It's the same with the way tanks progressed in 1.7. And with everyone converting over to scouts to solve their own personal scout problem it just adds more to the battlefield, increasing other peoples issues with them.
The solution is one that creates a healthy dynamic of game play and allows for fluidity across play styles: the best counter to a scout needs to be a different suit, which is then countered by something else entirely and so the clockwork mechanisms of war spin.
My personal thought on the issue is that the logical heir to the mantelpiece of counter-scout is the logistics suit. The Gallente is already semi-poised in the right direction with having a bonus to active scanners, but largely speaking it's not enough. I run scout suits (not Gallente) undampened and uncloaked and I get under more than 50% of all scans without too much issue. A think a smallish buff in passive scanning on a logistic suit might go a long way into making passive modules more functional for them (small steps here, it would be way too easy for the pendulum to swing the other way and make the scouts undesirable, too), or even a small buff to the angle that active scanners can sweep, which would make them more reliable without necessarily making them any stronger, which incentiveizes using them more.
All in all there are options, for sure, but the bigger issue to be addressed here is the crux of my argument. When the best counter for a play style is the same play style then the battle trend will always settle there. When you keep the gears moving you keep the fight fresh and I think most people will be happier with a robust theater of war.
1.7 did nothing to fix tanks though..... hardners were subtly nerfed and ambush is mostly free of their spam now.
Marston VC, STB Director
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
454
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:
1.7 did nothing to fix tanks though..... hardners were subtly nerfed and ambush is mostly free of their spam now.
The hardener nerf was a pretty solid step in the right direction, though. I field a forge gun when I need to run AV and I find that I'm doing a bit more to keep the tanks out of crucial areas if not entirely off the map from me popping them (need to hit every shot perfectly to accomplish this, however). The biggest buff to AV is the AV damage war points that you're now granted, though. With that, many more people are willing to run AV without feeling like they are wasting their time, and just the act of having more AV on the field means that all AV becomes more powerful with the ability to synergistically combine their efforts. The balance, while not perfect, is in a much better place.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
873
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:It's pretty simple, the only thing that can ever detect a standard or advanced scout suit (with level 5 skills) is another scout suit, or a gal logi with a proto scanner (a fitting that costs way more than the scout). One on one a scout has a slight advantage if you know he's there. The problem is squads of scouts. You see one and start planning to take him out, and the one behind you that nobody else saw takes you out first. A squad of scouts working together can dismantle an entire team and wipe their uplinks out, pushing them into the redline.
Rock / paper / scissors only works when rock isn't better than everything else.
Where were you in 1.7? Scouts dodged most scanners then, they weren't close to OP.
What one on ones are you fighting where the scout had the advantage? Only if he's cloaked AND he got the drop on you is the scout at advantage. Heavies absolutely wreck scouts, scouts have few ways to actually combat heavies.
A squad is deadly regardless of what suit. You ever seen a squad of heavies or tanks? Sure you can see them but it's a stampede that isn't stopping for you.
Scouts aren't OP, they've hardly changed since 1.7. It's obvious what needs tweaking and that is cloaks.
You want to beat a scout ala Rock/Paper/scissors? Run a heavy. If he's a shotgun scout run hmg, rifle scout run a rifle. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
1668
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ander Thedas wrote:Marston VC wrote:
1.7 did nothing to fix tanks though..... hardners were subtly nerfed and ambush is mostly free of their spam now.
The hardener nerf was a pretty solid step in the right direction, though. I field a forge gun when I need to run AV and I find that I'm doing a bit more to keep the tanks out of crucial areas if not entirely off the map from me popping them (need to hit every shot perfectly to accomplish this, however). The biggest buff to AV is the AV damage war points that you're now granted, though. With that, many more people are willing to run AV without feeling like they are wasting their time, and just the act of having more AV on the field means that all AV becomes more powerful with the ability to synergistically combine their efforts. The balance, while not perfect, is in a much better place.
true enough. Honestly I was satisfied that tank spam in ambush was fixed. However, PC fights especially, still have the same old problems as before. Tank spam can totally ruin what would otherwise be a completely fun and intense match. And there are still ways to counter AV permanently via armor reps and such.
Marston VC, STB Director
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Doshneil Antaro
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
270
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:The ewar imbalance has been on my mind for awhile now. As it stands a medium suit with complex mods for precision and range are useless and a waste of isk/sp. This is even more exagerated with the dampening bonus from cloaks on scouts. Presision mods and/or scanners should be viable counters for scouts and cloaks. As it stands, the only answer is to run scout yourself.
If scouts are best suited to kill heavies, heavies for mediums, mediums should be the scout killer. To acheive this an increase to the medium suits precision is needed. Make it high enough so one complex precision mod will scan a scout with one enhanced dampener or below. This move would also help curve tanked scouts, as they would have to decide to dampen and be stealthy, or tank and be seen.
Also, the dampening bonus from cloaks has proven too much, if only one suit out of twenty has a chance to counter it, than it is OP. idea I posted from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155385
Sage /thread
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
459
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:Doshneil Antaro wrote:The ewar imbalance has been on my mind for awhile now. As it stands a medium suit with complex mods for precision and range are useless and a waste of isk/sp. This is even more exagerated with the dampening bonus from cloaks on scouts. Presision mods and/or scanners should be viable counters for scouts and cloaks. As it stands, the only answer is to run scout yourself.
If scouts are best suited to kill heavies, heavies for mediums, mediums should be the scout killer. To acheive this an increase to the medium suits precision is needed. Make it high enough so one complex precision mod will scan a scout with one enhanced dampener or below. This move would also help curve tanked scouts, as they would have to decide to dampen and be stealthy, or tank and be seen.
Also, the dampening bonus from cloaks has proven too much, if only one suit out of twenty has a chance to counter it, than it is OP. idea I posted from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155385
The balance is delicate. If the single complex precision module is balanced against the Gallente scout then every other scout suit couldn't even be bothered to try to run dampeners. If it's against every other scout's natural profile then those who want to continue to get under the range would just switch to (or continue to use) Gallente suits. I think Logi's make more sense. They could relay the information to their squads if it's passive, or actively scan their targets which is a pretty fair way of pointing out a scout provided they can get under their signature. And just to reiterate once more: the buff would have to be pretty minor. Going overboard would practically dismantle the class.
Omnia mutantur nihil interit
FW lvl10 reward
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